posiesperson

My DD recently reminded me that the builder of the Titanic said, "Not even GOD can sink this ship!" Hm. If we espouse the belief that Zen Buddhists have, and those of myriad spiritual systems, we know that words have power. How do we want to use them...? And that is part of the bigger question: how do we want to use our time here and now?

We manifest all kinds of miracles every day, that is my spiritual belief. We can define "manifestation" all kinds of ways--God, Goddess, Mother Earth, Moses, scientific exploration, spirit of the tree--whatever our tradition, or what makes the most sense to us, personally.

I try to get up every morning with some sort of wonderment about what adventures I will have that day. Every day, after all, is an incredible opportunity.

That's not to say I don't have my struggles with this, which happens most often when I'm in the throes of wanting to CONTROL. When I start to feel upset inside, no doubt it's a result of my wanting to control. Alanon has been an incredible tool to get to that understanding for myself.

No judgement here, kittymammas. I was raised Catholic and came to understand that is one way to do things. I'm grateful for the opportunity to ask the questions about whether or not that was really my personal belief system, and it isn't...it's just one way to ask the questions.

Wishing you peace, and I hope you find a meeting that works well for you. Remember, you can insert anything you want into that space that some call "God"--it's whatever works for you so that you can remind yourself that you're not responsible for making the sun come up every morning, or keeping the earth revolving around the sun, or making sure that no asteroids hit the earth...or making sure the A in your life doesn't drink. The HP of your understanding is your de-pressurization valve. You are enough, and important enough, to make yourself the priority in every decision and action you make.

Hugs,
posie

coyote21

I didn't know about the Titanic, pretty arrogant. Years ago the owner of a bar I managed was arguing on the phone with his girlfriend. I walked into his office in time to here him say, "Don't f**k with me, God doesn't even f**k with me". Sent chills up my spine, and I didn't even believe back then.

But posie, I just wanted to comment that we are on similar spiritual paths.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

Bucyn

Why not?

I mean, I get that it was never about you, but why not make it about you?

There's something to that put your own oxygen mask on before you put on your child's. Co-dependency is a trap just like alcohol. With alcohol it's easy to see: it makes you feel good quickly and cheaply, it works, it gives back...at least until it doesn't, and then it's hell. And when it stops working, you're
trapped and addicted. But you can see the bottle, feel the effects, and nobody outside of you.

Co-dependency's an invisible trap with no clear markers, no bottle, no behavior change, no notice by others. In fact, co-dependency often masks itself as 'noble'. Alcohol doesn't do that; it might be 'fun' or 'relaxing', but few, even drinkers, are under the illusion that alcohol makes them superior people.

Co-dependency does the same thing as alcohol: it allows you to avoid your problems by taking care of others and allows you to feel good about yourself without having to look at yourself too closely.

And like alcohol, at some point it stops working. However much you may deny it, you are a fallible person just like everyone else and you have NEEDS that need to be met by others. If you live a typical codependent lifestyle, you will not have cultivated anyone in your life who has the ability to meet your needs. And when the time comes--and it will--that you must depend on others, you will find there is nobody dependable around and you will, if you are typical, will be very angry (after all you've done for others, you are 'owed'), depressed (why don't I have what others have, why am I not lovable enough for others to do for me?), anxious (I NEED but cannot get my needs met, what am I going to do) and frightened (as bad as it is now, if I let anyone know I have needs, am angry, am frightened, or depressed or anxious, I will drive away the little I do get)...and if you are a typical long term codependent, you will become a passive aggressive, needy, clingy manipulative martyr, and push good people away and develop self defeating coping mechanisms such as neurosis, emotional illnesses...or ironically enough, addictions.

You didn't say you were co-dependent, so maybe you aren't, not everyone dealing with an alcoholic is. But saying you have no intention to ever make it about you seems like a red flag for co-dependency. I may have misunderstood what you meant, but it's kind of an odd thing to say.

Why shouldn't it be about you? You deserve it to be about you sometimes too. It's healthy to have it be about you. It brings balance into relationships and draws good people towards you (good people are uncomfortable in lopsided relationships that are all about them, and never about the other person; however, messed up people adore those relationships--so guess what you end up with?). The world is a richer place if you get a turn to showcase your 'you-ness' too. You don't get 'points' for never making it about you. Weight control is a good thing, but not eating is a symptom of a huge problem. Same with living for others and being 'modest'.

So why shouldn't it be about you?

Learn2Live

I agree. And always having the alcoholic there to point our finger at also gives us the feeling that we are better than.

JenT1968

I have no higher power. believe me, I've tried to believe in "a power greater than myself" but although I certainly don't think I am the most powerful force in the universe I don't believe in any Higher power that would be meaningful in the sense of "let go and let god": one with a plan, or that could intervene etc.

I have often felt that my journey could have been quicker and easier if I was able to believe in a benign, omnipotent, omnipresent, higher power: one whose arms I could lovingly leave my stbxAH to, allow the future to unfold knowing that it was happening "just as it should".

well, I couldn't believe in it, despite much wanting to, I kept running up against the same conceptual problems, which are far too mundane and off topic to go in to here, and I had to accept that I needed to get on with moving forward without a belief in an active HP.

for me that meant not "letting go and letting god" but simply letting go into the void, this involved lots of work realizing that I was a worthwhile human being, that my needs and wants were just as important as everyone else's, that I wasn't less perfect, more flawed, and that I didn't have to work harder to be worthy of love and happiness. I had to understand that the only person whose job it was to make my life worthwhile to me was me, and that it was not only OK for me to do that but that I was damaging myself and possibly others by not putting my own life first. By extension, I also saw that this went for everyone else and their lives too.

I'm not talking wanton destructive selfishness, but that there is a middle way between that and wanton, destructive, selflessness.

I had to work on why I picked up those responsibilities for other people, what I believed about "goodness" and being fair to others and my worth and abandonment and a whole heap of other stuff. I had to realize that the way I thought about stuff wasn't how everyone thought about stuff, and that people who thought differently were happier and not selfish and loved themselves and were loved by others.

I'm fully open to the fact I may be dead wrong about the existence of my higher power, and that perhaps one day I'll feel different. I very much respect the beliefs of others, and frankly I can see no downside to having a higher power, only good things, but if you don't recognize one now, or indeed ever, that doesn't need to hold you back

transformyself

Beautiful. Thanks L2L

I have had intense spiritual experiences my entire life and have seen amazing acts of power and faith, yet at times have to be reminded of how loved and cherished I am. I've seen my Elder call the thunder beings, have been saved by the moon, and given direct clear messages from strangers who say, "God told me to tell you this." I am one of those people who can hear The Spirits. My faith in HP is unshakable, yet I'm a very damaged human that at times can't remember what I know.

I don't understand why folks get mad at "God," all though if I were taught some of the things others are taught about that particular God I might be mad too.

I'll tell you what I think about prayer, what I've been told. Our thoughts and words are beings. We send them out to do our work. L2L's vision of putting her A into giant hands is perfect. When I worry about my children, I pray and send protectors to them, rather than worry, which sends them negative energy. And my rage and anger from PTSD is the one thing that I work on the hardest to heal because it causes so much damage to myself and others.

Thanks for the thread. Oh, and George Carlin has a great 10 minute youtube bit on religion you might like. Very funny.

theuncertainty

Transform. Thank you so much for sharing this. What an absolutely amazing way to think about prayers, our words and thoughts. I have so much work to do. Thank you for this wonderful tool to add to my kit.