Don't judge me to harshly please...Im just lost and trying to find my way.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 124
We only have to be 'willing' to believe in a higher power to work this program - it does not have to be God as in man in clouds, it is one 'of your own understanding'. And I don't think it matters who/what orchestrates the rock bottom that is necessary to stop drinking; the main thing is that WE cannot orchestrate it! That is all we need to accept.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
"Taking care of yourself" and "putting the alcoholic in God's hands" do not mean you stop caring what happens to him. It DOES sometimes mean painfully sitting on your hands while allowing him to experience the consequences of his disease.
It's hard to allow our children to struggle and fail, too, but if we rush to fix every mistake they don't learn to do things on their own. You can look at it this way, too: you are allowing him the dignity of making his choices and living with the consequences.
I'm a sober alcoholic, and it was only when I was completely out of other people to blame my drinking on that I concluded it was ME. *I* was the problem, not the jerk I lived with for five years, not the passive-agressive adult child who lived with me for awhile, it was ME. If someone had run around making sure I took care of what needed to be taken care of, I would have coasted a lot longer, I think.
Remember, people you meet at an Al-Anon meeting, just like those who we meet at AA meetings, are in all stages of recovery. Some ARE numb, no doubt, but that isn't full recovery.
Try some other meetings, and keep posting and reading, here. We DO understand, and you won't be judged.
It's hard to allow our children to struggle and fail, too, but if we rush to fix every mistake they don't learn to do things on their own. You can look at it this way, too: you are allowing him the dignity of making his choices and living with the consequences.
I'm a sober alcoholic, and it was only when I was completely out of other people to blame my drinking on that I concluded it was ME. *I* was the problem, not the jerk I lived with for five years, not the passive-agressive adult child who lived with me for awhile, it was ME. If someone had run around making sure I took care of what needed to be taken care of, I would have coasted a lot longer, I think.
Remember, people you meet at an Al-Anon meeting, just like those who we meet at AA meetings, are in all stages of recovery. Some ARE numb, no doubt, but that isn't full recovery.
Try some other meetings, and keep posting and reading, here. We DO understand, and you won't be judged.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
Kittymamma, I hope you try another alanon meeting!
Maybe you just went on a strange night with some people who had some strange ideas? It happens. Alanon mirrors the 12 step program of AA, and some of the thing you heard sound rather odd to me.
As an AA member, I hope you allow me to describe the way I have experienced the 12 step program. (And, by that I mean the AA 12 step program, and the various other programs that are based on it, such as alanon, NA, and FA, (food addicts.)
The first step is: "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and our lives had become unmanageable".
When you finally admit something to yourself, it is a breaking point. There is a choice made and a strong desire to change, by the individual, when they take step one.
The 12 steps are all about the alcoholic making a lot of important choices and decisions and taking actions, for himself. I have never heard the idea that we are not the architects of our own recovery. (What we are often told however, is that we are not the architects of the universe).
The big book of AA constantly poses the questions to the alcoholic: are you ready to stop? Are you willing to make some changes? Are you ready to get into action?
There is also a lot of language about leaving our will and our lives in the hands of God in AA: and that "God" is a higher power of our own choice, which could be anything from the "great spirit of the universe" to "the natural force of life", to a traditional or non-traditional idea of a deity. Your higher power can be anything that your own personal definition of it is.
Maybe you just went on a strange night with some people who had some strange ideas? It happens. Alanon mirrors the 12 step program of AA, and some of the thing you heard sound rather odd to me.
As an AA member, I hope you allow me to describe the way I have experienced the 12 step program. (And, by that I mean the AA 12 step program, and the various other programs that are based on it, such as alanon, NA, and FA, (food addicts.)
They said that an alcoholic isn't the one who has the breaking point and decides that they wanna change.."its god".
When you finally admit something to yourself, it is a breaking point. There is a choice made and a strong desire to change, by the individual, when they take step one.
Anyways so when they tell me that the only one can decide when my AH recovers is "god" it didn't go down well with me.
The big book of AA constantly poses the questions to the alcoholic: are you ready to stop? Are you willing to make some changes? Are you ready to get into action?
There is also a lot of language about leaving our will and our lives in the hands of God in AA: and that "God" is a higher power of our own choice, which could be anything from the "great spirit of the universe" to "the natural force of life", to a traditional or non-traditional idea of a deity. Your higher power can be anything that your own personal definition of it is.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 545
I do believe in God... and have experienced him in many ways. I grew up with "organized cult religion" shoved in every orifice...
The God I have come to know is a loving God and deeply cares and loves everyone... no matter who they are or what they did... it's not up to us to judge... and that is so hard to NOT do...
You will find that SR is a very open platform and embraces many ideas and views.... but the ultimate message is.... there is nothing we can do for the addict or alcoholic.... that is their decision and their choice.
However... it is up to each of us to take care of ourselves and those who depend on us (children).... outside of that.... it is up to God. God gave men free will to choose.... he loved us so much to do that.... all we have to do is honor the "free will to choose"...
Take care.
The God I have come to know is a loving God and deeply cares and loves everyone... no matter who they are or what they did... it's not up to us to judge... and that is so hard to NOT do...
You will find that SR is a very open platform and embraces many ideas and views.... but the ultimate message is.... there is nothing we can do for the addict or alcoholic.... that is their decision and their choice.
However... it is up to each of us to take care of ourselves and those who depend on us (children).... outside of that.... it is up to God. God gave men free will to choose.... he loved us so much to do that.... all we have to do is honor the "free will to choose"...
Take care.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 436
There are quite a few of us non believers of God/religion at my Al-anon group - I am an athiest. Another person when I first started going, mentioned how difficult she finds the terminology of God, so she took this to mean 'Good Orderly Direction', it worked for her and works for me.
I have definitely experienced my higher power though and almost feels to me like an angel watching over me, making things happen just at the right time. Spooky coincidences!
I have definitely experienced my higher power though and almost feels to me like an angel watching over me, making things happen just at the right time. Spooky coincidences!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
Hi, Kittymammas. The concept of turning everything over to God or an HP was really hard for me to accept when I started attending AlAnon. (I had issues with the western concept of God and organized religion.) The one thing that helped open my eyes/heart to the concept of a HP was reading Letting Go with Love, by Julia H. (a wonderful book about learning to detach). Her higher power was the sea... Reading that helped me see past the western notion of God as an HP and let me start defining my HP.
I think that whatever entity or concept you can trust to help you find serenity can be your HP. There was a really great thread back in May about finding your HP. I can never get the link-back thing to work, maybe some one else will remember the thread and can post it (?).
The AlAnon meetings I've gone to have been pretty open-minded about an HP. (One lady in the group changes the word 'God' to 'Goddess'.) So, just because this meeting didn't fit, doesn't mean another won't. I was told to give it at least 6 tries when starting out, which turned out to be great advice.
I think that whatever entity or concept you can trust to help you find serenity can be your HP. There was a really great thread back in May about finding your HP. I can never get the link-back thing to work, maybe some one else will remember the thread and can post it (?).
The AlAnon meetings I've gone to have been pretty open-minded about an HP. (One lady in the group changes the word 'God' to 'Goddess'.) So, just because this meeting didn't fit, doesn't mean another won't. I was told to give it at least 6 tries when starting out, which turned out to be great advice.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by yesbutnobut 
Another person when I first started going, mentioned how difficult she finds the terminology of God, so she took this to mean 'Good Orderly Direction', it worked for her and works for me.
Oh and as for another Alanon group, well my town's population is 1800. We only have one group with two people and its once a week. But I will continue to go..I am just afraid to reveal to them my true opinions. They seem pretty "god" orientated, which I respect. But I don't know if they will respect my beliefs...or non beliefs.
I also have a thought in the back of my mind and I hate realizing I have ever thought it...sometimes I feel that it would be easier to be with out him, like give up on him (which I really don't want). I mean even if he does recover..it will be something he will have to work on FOREVER...I can't believe I think like that but I guess we all have our guilty thoughts from time to time in a tough situation.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 390
Kitty I am right there with you - my AH was sober 1.5 years and has recently started drinking. I have had thoughts of just washing my hands of it all - but as my sponsor has told me - if I get better than the likelihood of him getting better increases and our relationship too. If I give up, then I stand the risk of finding someone just like that. At this point she wants me to focus on myself, because if I don't, I may be destined to continue seeking out people like him. And honestly, he and I have history, and a family, and there is no abuse. He has to find his own way, and I hope that his relapse helps him realize and find sobriety again, but I'm not trying to force him to do anything.
I remember a neuroscience class at school that this thread made me think of, especially lexiecat's post. When the A has no one else to blame, they finally have only one person left to look at. There was a condition we learned of, where people ignore parts of their body. For example they will ignore an arm - they will only dress half of themselves etc. Research showed that a treatment that worked was to ***** the 'ignored' arm with a sharp object. Because they don't identify with that limb, they feel pain and look at the other arm, the functioning one. But they see nothing there that could have caused the pain. Their attention (I guess by the doctor) is turned to the other arm and they see the object causing pain, and through this they are forced to acknowledge the limb. It wasn't so much a physical condition, it was an ATTENTION condition. When all other options were gone, they were forced to turn their attention to what was being previously unacknowledged. Lexie is right - when we are the 'functioning arm' then the person can ignore the real cause. Take the arm away and they are forced to see themselves and fend for themselves.
I remember a neuroscience class at school that this thread made me think of, especially lexiecat's post. When the A has no one else to blame, they finally have only one person left to look at. There was a condition we learned of, where people ignore parts of their body. For example they will ignore an arm - they will only dress half of themselves etc. Research showed that a treatment that worked was to ***** the 'ignored' arm with a sharp object. Because they don't identify with that limb, they feel pain and look at the other arm, the functioning one. But they see nothing there that could have caused the pain. Their attention (I guess by the doctor) is turned to the other arm and they see the object causing pain, and through this they are forced to acknowledge the limb. It wasn't so much a physical condition, it was an ATTENTION condition. When all other options were gone, they were forced to turn their attention to what was being previously unacknowledged. Lexie is right - when we are the 'functioning arm' then the person can ignore the real cause. Take the arm away and they are forced to see themselves and fend for themselves.
A Pirate looks at 40
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southeast of Disorder (FL)
Posts: 264
Not judging, but you never know...all the evolution, big bang, etc... might have had some "intelligent design" behind it instead of just appearing out of nothing-ness....
Not saying, just saying...
Anyway whether you believe in a HP or not, we all are here for each other on this forum.
((hugs))
Not saying, just saying...
Anyway whether you believe in a HP or not, we all are here for each other on this forum.
((hugs))
Awakening
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by kittymammas
I also have a thought in the back of my mind and I hate realizing I have ever thought it...sometimes I feel that it would be easier to be with out him, like give up on him (which I really don't want). I mean even if he does recover..it will be something he will have to work on FOREVER...I can't believe I think like that but I guess we all have our guilty thoughts from time to time in a tough situation.
I find it "ironical" that WE can't fix/help them get better, but THEY can drag ALL (family/friends) of us down with them? Weird.
"Let go or be dragged", there came a time when I had to let go of the rope. BTW, that took years.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
I'll never forget the day I realized my husband is codependent to me.
I was sitting in an AA meeting listening to a guy complain about his ex, for the millionth time. I said to him: maybe she was codependent to you? His scenario was that his ex-wife wanted to control him. My scenario was that my husband wants to fix everything, not control, just fix my mess.
My scenario matched what another recovered AA woman said: "I was the accident, my kids were the victims, my husband was the ambulance".
I then said, well, I think my husband is codependent. And, then, all the pieces fell into place. My husband has accepted more nutty behavior from me than most people would. Most men would have left me a long time ago. He is also codependent to my kids: "Don't get a job? Don't clean up the kitchen, don't do your laundry, don't do your homework? Don't join us for dinner but sit in your room in front of the computer?" My husbands response to that is to buy them the newest state of the art computer parts and retreat to his own computer to avoid contact with them.
Coyete wrote:
Nobody can fix us. If you had a hoarder or an animal collector as a brother or sister coyote, or a sex addict, or a compulsive eater or compulsive gambler as a sibling, do you think you could fix them? I doubt it: professional help is needed. We can't fix them.
I say "we" because I am a recovering alcoholic but I am and have been codependent to alcoholic parents and three alcoholic siblings. I can't do anything to "fix" my chronic, active alcoholic brothers.
But, they can only drag me down if I let them.
I could have given one of my brothers my credit card number and code for making "crisis" purchases recently, but I didn't. He used the circumstances of the death of his own brother to try and hijack my credit card number. I knew he would have gone crazy with the card number and racked up hundreds of dollars of expenses. I could have allowed him to swindle me for thousands of dollars with a bogus property deal he cooked up with an alcoholic real estate buddy about 18 months ago. I could have let that happen. I didn't.
They can't drag us down if we make boundaries and learn to say no...and, they don't drag ALL family members down with them. Another one of my alcoholic brother's ex-wife and daughter always refused to give him money, under any circumstances.
I was sitting in an AA meeting listening to a guy complain about his ex, for the millionth time. I said to him: maybe she was codependent to you? His scenario was that his ex-wife wanted to control him. My scenario was that my husband wants to fix everything, not control, just fix my mess.
My scenario matched what another recovered AA woman said: "I was the accident, my kids were the victims, my husband was the ambulance".
I then said, well, I think my husband is codependent. And, then, all the pieces fell into place. My husband has accepted more nutty behavior from me than most people would. Most men would have left me a long time ago. He is also codependent to my kids: "Don't get a job? Don't clean up the kitchen, don't do your laundry, don't do your homework? Don't join us for dinner but sit in your room in front of the computer?" My husbands response to that is to buy them the newest state of the art computer parts and retreat to his own computer to avoid contact with them.
Coyete wrote:
I find it "ironical" that WE can't fix/help them get better, but THEY can drag ALL (family/friends) of us down with them? Weird.
I say "we" because I am a recovering alcoholic but I am and have been codependent to alcoholic parents and three alcoholic siblings. I can't do anything to "fix" my chronic, active alcoholic brothers.
But, they can only drag me down if I let them.
I could have given one of my brothers my credit card number and code for making "crisis" purchases recently, but I didn't. He used the circumstances of the death of his own brother to try and hijack my credit card number. I knew he would have gone crazy with the card number and racked up hundreds of dollars of expenses. I could have allowed him to swindle me for thousands of dollars with a bogus property deal he cooked up with an alcoholic real estate buddy about 18 months ago. I could have let that happen. I didn't.
They can't drag us down if we make boundaries and learn to say no...and, they don't drag ALL family members down with them. Another one of my alcoholic brother's ex-wife and daughter always refused to give him money, under any circumstances.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
..sometimes I feel that it would be easier to be with out him, like give up on him (which I really don't want). I mean even if he does recover..it will be something he will have to work on FOREVER...I can't believe I think like that but I guess we all have our guilty thoughts from time to time in a tough situation.
AlAnon was where I learned that taking care of myself and my mental health, and setting and keeping boundaries that protected my serenity from alcoholic insanity was not "giving up" on the alcoholic.
I didn't have to stop loving them, or send them any kind of awful, heartless, dramatic message that I was "giving up" on them. I had to be aware of how toxic my "love" was to them and how toxic their behavior was to me, and take steps to fix that! I had to learn where love ended and enabling began.
I also started AlAnon in NYC, where I was as likely to walk into a meeting of die hard Christians as I was a meeting of Wiccans or athiests or bird-worshippers! So I quickly learned that it is the "concept" of the HP - not the details of any religion, the "concept" of letting go of my illusions of control that was what I needed to get.
My head/heart was so focused on other people's "problems" it was a glorious 180 degree turn around for me when I really started working the steps and the AlAnon program.
I used to equate taking care of my problems and my dreams, and leaving other people's problems to them, with selfishness. Boy did I have a LOT to learn!
peace-
b
AlAnon was where I learned that taking care of myself and my mental health, and setting and keeping boundaries that protected my serenity from alcoholic insanity was not "giving up" on the alcoholic.
I didn't have to stop loving them, or send them any kind of awful, heartless, dramatic message that I was "giving up" on them. I had to be aware of how toxic my "love" was to them and how toxic their behavior was to me, and take steps to fix that! I had to learn where love ended and enabling began.
I also started AlAnon in NYC, where I was as likely to walk into a meeting of die hard Christians as I was a meeting of Wiccans or athiests or bird-worshippers! So I quickly learned that it is the "concept" of the HP - not the details of any religion, the "concept" of letting go of my illusions of control that was what I needed to get.
My head/heart was so focused on other people's "problems" it was a glorious 180 degree turn around for me when I really started working the steps and the AlAnon program.
I used to equate taking care of my problems and my dreams, and leaving other people's problems to them, with selfishness. Boy did I have a LOT to learn!
peace-
b
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Norfolk, MA
Posts: 792
One More Higher Power Experience
As many here, I was also put off by the religious aspects of AA, as well as many of the groups associated with 12 step programs. I always felt responsible for my drinking and it's aftermath. I felt that by bringing God into it, I was looking for a way to deflect the real blame. If I didn't have God in my life, I was bound to do these terrible things to my family and others. If only I would find God, I'd be just fine, I felt these programs were saying to me.
Well, skip ahead to me in my first day-group meeting at my rehab after a suicide attempt. What do they tell me? First and foremost, get a higher power. Oh, Great! Here we go! They are going to shove God down my throat
and I'm going to leave here no better off than I was entering it!
We broke for lunch and I headed back to my room in another building. It was snowing out and it was cold but it was lovely and quiet.I thought about what the counsellor had said in the group."Your higher power can be anything, a chair, a tree, anything". I looked at the trees and thought, how do you know which one is "your" tree if you choose it? Can you find it again? Does it matter?
Suddenly, I heard something falling through the pine trees and landing on the ground in front of me. It was a frozen french baguette-yeah, a frozen dinner roll fell through the trees and landed at my feet. Bizarre, right? Well,
I have to tell you, that changed my way of thinking. No, I didn't think God had dropped it but I did know it was something only I was experiencing.
That's what I needed to look at things differently. It put a smile on my face
and I told the story when I got to the afternoon session. Some people could appreciate my struggle and my solution. Still others thought I was totally
ridiculing the Higher Power idea. They couldn't have been more wrong.
I found it almost comical but it really stuck with me that now I had something, not God, to think about when working my program. And yes, that experience seemed magical to me, not that sobriety is magical; it takes real work, but it was special. Picking a chair as my Higher Power didn't seem special.
Ironically, as the years have passed, I have discovered that I did have a relationship with God and I enjoy it fully today. It is perhaps not the same as everyone or anyone else's relationship, but that is fine with me.
I don't know if this helps at all, but 8 1/2 years of solid sobriety has let me know that I just needed to look at the picture "outside the box" to have it work for me. I wish you strength and insight in your journey ahead with your family. You've found a wonderful place to share and vent.
Sorry if I jumped in on an Al-Anon thread.....
Jaxy
Well, skip ahead to me in my first day-group meeting at my rehab after a suicide attempt. What do they tell me? First and foremost, get a higher power. Oh, Great! Here we go! They are going to shove God down my throat
and I'm going to leave here no better off than I was entering it!
We broke for lunch and I headed back to my room in another building. It was snowing out and it was cold but it was lovely and quiet.I thought about what the counsellor had said in the group."Your higher power can be anything, a chair, a tree, anything". I looked at the trees and thought, how do you know which one is "your" tree if you choose it? Can you find it again? Does it matter?
Suddenly, I heard something falling through the pine trees and landing on the ground in front of me. It was a frozen french baguette-yeah, a frozen dinner roll fell through the trees and landed at my feet. Bizarre, right? Well,
I have to tell you, that changed my way of thinking. No, I didn't think God had dropped it but I did know it was something only I was experiencing.
That's what I needed to look at things differently. It put a smile on my face
and I told the story when I got to the afternoon session. Some people could appreciate my struggle and my solution. Still others thought I was totally
ridiculing the Higher Power idea. They couldn't have been more wrong.
I found it almost comical but it really stuck with me that now I had something, not God, to think about when working my program. And yes, that experience seemed magical to me, not that sobriety is magical; it takes real work, but it was special. Picking a chair as my Higher Power didn't seem special.
Ironically, as the years have passed, I have discovered that I did have a relationship with God and I enjoy it fully today. It is perhaps not the same as everyone or anyone else's relationship, but that is fine with me.
I don't know if this helps at all, but 8 1/2 years of solid sobriety has let me know that I just needed to look at the picture "outside the box" to have it work for me. I wish you strength and insight in your journey ahead with your family. You've found a wonderful place to share and vent.
Sorry if I jumped in on an Al-Anon thread.....
Jaxy
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 3,335
Are you saying your higher power is a frozen dinner roll?
:-)
Great post. Thank you.
Anvil used to say to me, all you have to do is accept that you are not the most powerful thing in the universe. That was easy for me. There are a lot of things in the universe that are way more powerful than me.
The other thing she used to say was that the universe strives for balance. And that is true as well. If I keep my interfering little hands in my pockets, the universe DOES strive for balance...
:-)
Great post. Thank you.
Anvil used to say to me, all you have to do is accept that you are not the most powerful thing in the universe. That was easy for me. There are a lot of things in the universe that are way more powerful than me.
The other thing she used to say was that the universe strives for balance. And that is true as well. If I keep my interfering little hands in my pockets, the universe DOES strive for balance...
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: europe
Posts: 624
Originally Posted by kittymammas
I mean even if he does recover..it will be something he will have to work on FOREVER...I can't believe I think like that but I guess we all have our guilty thoughts from time to time in a tough situation.
Once I truly realized life doesn't come with a waranty letter for the future, so many things changed for me.
My AH is in recovery now, and I know that is ceratin only for today, for this moment, no one knows what might happen tomorrow, and that goes for every single thing in life. When I look at things that way, there is a choice I need to make: I can either worry myself with all possible horrbile outcomes of days to come, or I can just stop and enjoy the moment. When I put it like that it's not hard to decide what to do.
Also, I don't think I'd be able to do that if I was still basing my happiness on my RAH sobriety. I took me a long time to let go and realize my happines depens only on me, on how I choose to look at things in my life.
I am not a religious person too, but I believe there is a some kind of balance in the Universe, the balance we're supposed to be part of. Also, I think the more I get in touch with my true self, the more I understand and cherish myself as the whole, selfsuficinet being, the more I'm in tune with balance of the Universe and life makes more sense.
I still love my RAH, I still wish him well, now I enjoy our life together as long as he is sober, if at some point he starts drinking again, that's where our paths will separate, I'll be sad for him, but that will not jeopardise the happiness I feel for being alive and blessed with my kids.
It took me an awful amount of pain to get where I am now, to realize life is actually that simple. And because of all that pain I know whatever happens I will not ever again be pulled back into craziness. Now I don't even think about it in terms of putting myself first or taking care of myself, to me now this is just plain common sense, the very thing that is allowing us to stay sane.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Central Valley CA
Posts: 4
Kitty- We are not here to judge. We are not here to make you believe or force our thoughts on you. We share our experience, strength & hope. We all have a different belief system, but what we do believe is that we are here for a reason. Something, someone (what ever you believe in)got me here. I didn't grow up with religion & I still have a problem with organized religion, but, I had to have something to believe in or I knew this wouldn't work. I know for me, if I can't hold it, touch it, see it, hear it, it's really hard to have something to believe in. I do know, whatever it was, helped me, showed me & carried me Thur. I use to think that if there was a god, it was a punishing god. Why would this god let this happen to me & all the bad things happen in my family that has happened over the years ? Again Kitty, we are no better then the next person to come along, so who made us a (god) to judge you? All I know is that I found something that worked for me & I hope you find something that works for you ! Good luck & PLEASE, take care of yourself in the process
Sobriety Date: Feb 2009
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Jpn
Posts: 389
Hi, KM! The post below assist to understand the concept of HP for me. Hope it works for you as well!
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post2482563
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post2482563
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