bookwyrm

I don't watch much TV. I read lots. I label myself a feminist. But I still feel affected by the marketing industry and the hard sell of the 'ideal' person we all 'must' strive to be - either through my low self esteem or through the attitude of others around me at work etc. I've always felt a bit of an outsider from society because I don't participate in the things my peers do.

IMHO a single advertisement isn't that powerful (though some have been known to instantly make my blood boil). It's when you take them as a whole that they begin to have a mass effect. The trend towards thinner and thinner standards of beauty, the use of airbrushing, the invisibility of women over a certain age or a certain size. The reinforcement and use of traditional stereotypes. Margalising of race and disability. We don't live in a vaccum. All this has an effect on society. It affects me - sometimes because I rebell against it at times - because I live in a society that absorbs these messages as true (they wouldn't 'work' as advertising if they didn't). I'm talking about advertising as a whole rather than the effect of advertising on marketing a single product. I think this is where I got my wires crossed with your post Hammerhead!

One of my favourite sites on this is: Sociological Images Seeing is Believing Some of it is really funny!!

Learn2Live

Bookwyrm u r definitely onto more than you know. I have a researcher friend here in the US who has been collaborating with another woman researcher in the UK to campaign the British govt to change the face of advertising in Ireland. From what I understand, and this is no prejudice on my part at all, alcoholism is such an accepted part of the culture in Ireland that TV ads freely depict drunk husbands beating their wives, and supposedly in a humoristic light. I don't know what became of their campaign but I hope they were successful.

Hammerhead

Ahhh.... I started out feeling like an outsider too. I grew up without television and was not allowed to go to movie theaters. I was NEVER allowed to wear pants/slacks, make-up, to cut my hair... (my mother's religion said it was a womans fault if a man lusted after her) I was made to go to school with homemade clothes...let me tell you kids can be extremely unkind.

I hated my childhood and I wouldn't want to go through that part of my life again. Having said that... I became desensitized about what other people thought... Oh... I was aware of it... I didn't have the luxury to feel anything..... my mother and extremely controlling grandmother were 'religious' fanatics.... combine that with being dirt poor... well that gave me a pretty thick skin and a really hard head.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is... it was sheer survival for me to decide early on that I didn't need "those things".... that was the only way I survived mentally.... I still carry that with me to a great extent...I do wear slacks, cut my hair and occasionally wear makeup... but I have managed to turn my early negative to a positive. I seldom purchase anything brand new... when I do shop... it is at thrift stores, second hand shops. I acquired the love of all things old... I take an old dresser someone throws to the curb and refinish it. I take fabric someone throws out and make curtains with it.... you get the idea.

I do see a society that revolves around needing to have this gadget and that gadget or Brittany Spears perfume (huh?) and I smile really big now and shake my head. Sure I broke down and bought a cell phone...cuz I needed it... but I didn't think it made me any smarter or sexier

BTW, the dresser that I refinished... it sits in my front room. Someone recently offered me $300 for it... I said "no thanks". It's beautiful and it's something I did myself.

I agree and I see it too. I think of it as social engineering in a mental petri dish. Makes me wonder who is the man behind the curtain.

Now that's interesting!

zbear23

What a fabulous thread!

Magic focuses on form rather than content, fluff rather than substance. A large population on earth, namely Hindus and Buddhists, believe that it is ALL magic, in that this entire "dream world" is an illusion (named "maya.") Our task, like Sleeping Beauty, is to become awakened to reality which, vis a vis AA usually has something to do with transcending the ego.

Our capitalist/consumer world is totally dependent on the notion of scarcity and is the perfect example of Buddha's advice that desire is the root of all suffering. It is not money, but the LOVE of money that is the "root of all evil."

As a student of A Course in Miracles, I differentiate between "magical, and "miracle" thinking. Magical thinking is of the ego, ever in support of wanting to feel "special" (different) and ever seeking what we can never find. (The more I chase "happiness" the farther away it gets.) Miracle thinking is when I am able to "see things differently" from a spiritual rather than a self centered (ego) POV...to actually see that all conflict and separation is an illusion, because if there is a God....it is impossible to be separated from it. It is the manifestation of the truth that giving and receiving are the same. Hence: identify, don't compare.

Neal Walsch in "conversations with god," poses the notion that instead of seeking someone to complete us, a real loving relationship is one in which we seek to share our completeness with others. What we share always grows stronger.

And, btw, I'm not sure of the criteria (besides longevity) but apparently, arranged marriages are far more successful than those based on "love." In fact, I've heard it suggested that basing marriage on love is the worst thing that ever happened to that unfortunate institution.

blessings
zenbear

Learn2Live

Zbear could you please post some additional references for me such as website and book recommendations? I find your post fascinating. Thanks.

Wittss

Wow! I have heard the term "magical thinking", but it's really hitting home today. I think I've been over it for awhile but my prayer is that I never relapse into it in the coming years. I believe I will be a widow soon and while I have no desire to ever enter into another relationship, if I do, I wil go to Disney for my fantasy life!

Ann- I have ready several of your posts and you are awesome. I too have trouble buying any cards for my dysfuntional loved ones. I just go for funny ones or none at all. It's been too painful and a reminder of what Isn't in my life, probably never has been and no matter how many cards I bought, wasn't gonna be. The best card I ever bought described insanity: And it fits probably all of us here at one time or another.

Insanity - open card...

The confusion created when the mind overrules the body's overwhelming desire to choke the living s@*(# out of some as***** who Truly deserves it!

Now when I want to choke someone, I know I am going insane! Hence, I am here. My AH is making me insane. --- well, I'm making me insane, really. Then there is the true definition...Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, thinking you'll get a different result. ( Every scientist knows that to prove a theory, the result of any experiment, or condition must never change...that = truth) So if we don't change, disavow magical thinking, keep trying to change our loved ones behavior, we'll stay insane! Sorry to be so profuse, mainly I needed to go through this thought process again myself.

tigger11

L2L - here's the website for "A Course in Miracles": A Course In Miracles - Foundation for Inner Peace
Pretty cool stuff, although for me, first and foremost comes The Bible.

I, too, find this thread fascinating and enlightening. A question though that I don't think has been discussed (hope I didn't miss it)...

How can we be satisfied (happy?) in a life relationship?

Someone said that self-esteem was the key. I've been talking with my counselor about that. What a struggle. To overcome a lifetime... nay generations of training for women to put the man first, cater to his needs, put mine behind his.

And yet, here I am... a professional woman since college, leading a team of 8 professionals. I supported 1st XAH who was a "stay at home dad", in actuality, he was a drunk who couldn't get a job, for 17 years.

I have two amazing children. The ability to make a good living, to take care of myself, to successfully pull myself (with SR and other help) out of abusive marriage #2, and more.

So why can't I look in the mirror and see an attractive person?

If my magical thinking is "cured" in part by having good self-esteem, then I've got a long way to go.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks! Tigger

tjp613

L2L - I'm familiar with the philosophy that Zbear is writing about.

A Course in Miracles is very difficult to read, but anything by Marianne Williamson is based on those teachings. Specifically, I'd recommend A Return to Love.

Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount is also excellent. (You'll see clearly how the Big Book of AA was based on these teachings.)

Dalai Lama's Art of Happiness is good

Seat of the Soul by Gary Zukoff (sp?)

Conversations with God Book 1 by Neale Donald Walsch

----

And others that were life changers for me:

Discover the Power Within You by Eric Butterworth
Many Lives Many Masters by Brian Weiss, and
Journey of Souls by Michael Newton

HTH

FormerDoormat

Magical thinking allows me to see an idealized version of the world, not the real world. It allows me to see an idealized version of myself, not my real self. It allows me to see an idealized version of religion, not true spirituality. And it allowed me to see an idealized version of my late alcoholic boyfriend, not the real man. Magical Thinking has clouded every aspect of my life.

Magical Thinking, in all its forms, leads to obsessions. With an idealized body type or size that can never be achieved, with an idealized partner who can never live up to my standards--even in sobriety, with an idealized God who, if I prayed to long enough, would answer my prayers.

Magical thinking is a belief that if I work hard enough, care enough, fight enough, believe enough that the world will be a softer, kinder place to live. But the reality is that life is hard and I am fragile, so I began to use Magical Thinking as a way to protect myself as I navigated my way through life.

Geneen Roth author of Women, Food, and God, says "...obsession is a way of organizing our lives so that we never have to deal with the hard part--the part that happens between being two years old and dying."

At birth I had someone to meet my every need--a necessary ingredient in life in order for an infant to survive. As a toddler, I naturally began to separate myself from my nurturer and began attempting to navigate life on my own. As I grew, I became increasingly aware that life is hard and it tends to chip away at the body, mind, and soul. Somewhere during childhood I adopted behaviors to protect me from harm. They worked perfectly in a child's world, but they no longer served me well in the adult world, yet somehow I continue to cling to protection mechanisms that no longer serve me.

These childhood protection mechanisms can manifest themselves in all types of obsessions, from food addictions, to alcoholism or drug addictions, to codependency, to religious fanaticism, to gambling, hoarding, and shopping addictions, to unhealthy obsessions with work, exercise, the list goes on.

All of these obsessions have one thing in common: they are used to avoid pain. And they work, to an extent, but old wounds have a way of always rising to the top. So I try again and again to use the objects of my obsession to avoid feeling the pain. To stop the hurt. The only way to stop the pain permanently is to walk through it and feel it. It cannot be avoided. I must play the record all the way to the end--not my alcoholic boyfriend's record, but MY record. That's the hard part. The part that happens between being two years old and dying.

I first heard the term, "Magical Thinking," when I saw a book review on television. I can't remember the author's name, but the book was called something like "The Year of Magical Thinking." I've never read the book, and I actually don't know what it's about except that the author lost her husband unexpectedly and it was an account of how she navigated through the loss. I assumed it was probably a book about denial.

I was immediately drawn to the term "Magical Thinking" and began using it on this forum because it seemed to me to be a kinder, gentler way to describe denial. When I first considered the idea of denial on this forum, it was easy for me to dismiss it because I took it as a criticism of my behavior, of me. The term "Magical Thinking" allowed me to see where I was avoiding reality without beating myself up.

And that's where I find myself today: peeling away all the layers and identifying all the magical thinking that I still rely on that no longer works for me.

I thank you all for being here and sharing your thoughts on this subject.

Hammerhead

I copy and paste so much from SR... it's hard to keep track sometimes... I remember the topic and there is even a thread dedicated to the subject of "Positive Thinking vs. Magical Thinking"... I searched to find the original post.. but no luck. I do not have the posters name... I did copy the content... thought it relevant to repost the info here... if you are the original poster/author... please chime in. Thanks. Hammer

I found this most helpful.

LaTeeDa

Something felt very familiar about that Hammer! I went and looked and it was a thread I started!

Here is the link:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-thinking.html

L

Hammerhead

Awesome! Thanks LTD

zbear23

Both Hindu and Buddhist "scripture" are enlightening, but very dense and seem to require years of study for true understanding. My own spiritual mentor frames most of his lessons in the Hindu belief system, which would be expected since he is in India. He also teaches that it doesn't matter what spiritual discipline you choose....just choose one and stick to it.

Books and authors who have helped me most along the road I've been traveling are Marianne Williamson ("A Return to Love,") "A Course in Miracles," anything by Alan Watts (ie "The Book...on the taboo against knowing who you are"), Neal Walsch's three volume "Conversations with God," the writings of Carl Jung, and Joseph Campbell on symbolism. The list really is endless when I think about it, but these are a few that have certainly changed my thinking and my paradigm of life.

King Solomon said that "there is nothing new under the sun."

blessings
zb

zbear23

I think that magic always addresses effects, while miracles always address causes. If the cause is changed, the effect disappears....thus, a miracle.

No illusions are any more real than any others, but we all choose those that we prefer to believe in and make them "real" in our minds. But, as I state over and over: truth is true and nothing else is. Add one particle of illusion to truth, and it becomes a falsehood.

Thus....the original illusion was that I/We are somehow separate from God, from the Universal Oneness, however I define it. Rationally speaking, this is preposterous and my mistake is in forgetting to laugh at such an insane thought. From this original illusion, spring the myriad, seemingly infinite, variations on the theme of "separation."

The miracle enables me to return to that original error and thus, move past my delusional, ego-based beliefs in separation and towards the incomprehensible state of total unity. Since I think dualistically, enlightenment is never a function of my ego thought system, but requires that I truly "let go and let God,"...the letting go of old ideas must come first. I have to see illusions for what they are before I can "disappear" them with miracle, not magical, thinking.

blessings
zenbear