Payne9

So me and my ex decided to talk on the phone. My therapist and everyone quite frankly has told me to block and delete because I kept engaging in texting , even tho he’d ignore me sometimes... So last night we talked, he apologized for ignoring and asked me if I thought he was partying.. I said yes. He was like no, I just needed time and space and you weren’t giving it to me. So I apologized, and told him I’m sorry for not respecting that . He told me I can call/text him anytime and he’d answer. We both agreed we were toxic together. I did tell him I tried to control him because his drinking scared me etc. He said he understood. We agreed to give ourselves 2 months, and I’ll contact him then to see where we are at while I’m working on myself. He kept saying I don’t have to not text or call but he agreed we shouldn’t see each other for those two months. We were laughing like when we were together and not fighting . I got even more confused. He talked about reading how couples get back together after spending time apart because they realized they were the love of each other’s lives etc. The whole time we talked I had no romantic feelings at all. Probably because I can hear him opening up a beer.
I keep reminding myself this is the man that has had two bouts of pancreatitis, IBS, high blood pressure, gout at 37.. All his friends dislike me because they are his drinking buddies and I was trying to control him by keeping them apart . I’m hoping in 2 months I will have healed more.

trailmix

Well, it's great that he has decided you have a problem with not giving him enough space so you will wander off and fix yourself lol (sorry).

What's he going to do?

Point being, 2 months from now he will still be an alcoholic. He wants this relationship but with zero (and really that's zero!) comments from you about his drinking. Can you do that?

Payne9

Lol! My best friend laughed at the same thing. He claims he’s going to be working on himself too , lol! I was noticing every time I would say “ you were mean” he’d say “ WE were mean” . The fog is lifting because him complaining about the stress our relationship had on HIM, I rolled my eyes. Also he asked me how I would react if he wasn’t ready in 2 months, I told him I’m working on myself so I’ll be okay lol

Leftinthedust

The one time I was able to talk to (she said talk “at”), without her hanging up on me, was Halloween. She’d been in inpatient rehab since early July. All she could say when I asked her questions was “you only want to rehash the past”. I was really looking for info on how the bank account had been drained in Sept via her “locked up” debit card.

I guess what I’m getting at, is it seems like our qualifiers look at timeframes differently than we do. Mine hasn’t called back except to try to dialog with our minor daughter (who she promptly hung up on after getting what my AW must have deemed too intrusive). 2 months may not be long enough. What I’m finding is that the longer I go with zero, I mean ZERO contact, (block all social media, ignore mail, anything that connects to her) the easier my life is getting by super small increments. But, still seems to be improving. I’ve got a shirt history with this stuff, and am trying to take folks’ advice here to stay in my own lane and detach. I think it’s good advice for us looking in from the outside to take to heart.

Triggered

'rolling your eyes' does not get you out of a 'toxic relationship'

(your words in quotes)

For what it's worth, my opinion is that youre wishing to have a relationship of a certain kind when everything points towards something different...all the advice you've received on here so far echos that conclusion. At the end of the day it's your own decision and I'm positive everyone on here wants you to make informed choices that are in your best interest. Of course it's difficult to let go of a relationship that youre so emotionally invested in. I believe a two month seperation with no contact at all is the very least you need to detach from emotions that lead you in only one direction so you have the clarity of mind to make use of the experience of others.

trailmix

Yes, you will be fine.

He isn't quitting, two months from now he will be right where he is today, opening a beer and talking to you on the phone.

He's testing the waters to see if he can have his cake and eat it too.

Living with an alcoholic is pretty hellish.

So what do you foresee? Wait two months and when he is still drinking you break up with him or?

Payne9

I don’t think he will be different but I’m hopeful that I will be. I’ve been with addicts/alcoholics my whole life, I’m trying to break the cycle. The hard part for me is realizing my behaviors when I was with him. I was someone I couldn’t even recognize. I still felt in the conversation it was still a push/pull without anger. Hard to explain. I’ve been reading more and more on here and talking to Alanon members, and my therapist . I think the 2 month thing was more for me because blocking and deleting forever at this stage seemed unbearable.

Payne9

Im reading a lot more. This is not the life I want for me and especially my kids. I’m trying to get the clarity I know I didn’t feel the same when conversing but the fact I talked to him for 2 hrs wasn’t healthy either .

Payne9

Yes, it’s hard some days but I’m definitely more aware. Because I’m more aware of my own reactions to his behaviors.

trailmix

I totally understand that. It's very hard because you are fine and he is fine (kind of - generally, but not really) and you two get along BUT - that huge elephant in the room which just won't shift.

I also get the push/pull you are referring to. Your Spidey sense is on high alert and so is his addiction. It's ok when everyone stays on their own "side" but if there is any threat of spill over - .

Which reminded me of a part in one of Floyd Garrett's papers, can't find that just now but basically it described the defense of the addiction like a war with troopers and people unfriendly to the addiction as being zapped.

In looking for that I found this though, which I think provides a good peek at how addiction affects reality for the addict.
.
"By the time a chronic addictive process such as alcoholism has become frankly problematic it has invariably acquired a complex and sophisticated array of psychological defense mechanisms aimed at protecting its continued existence by minimizing the cognitive dissonance the addict experiences as a result of his progressively irrational self- and usually other- harmful behavior.

Though he imagines himself to be free - perhaps even freer than free!- and though he will (because he is unable to) brook no contradiction to his will, the addict is nevertheless completely controlled by and under the thumb of his addiction.

In fact his behavior is not determined by his own will at all but by the will of the addiction that now constitutes and constructs his reality. For in addiction, the true self is suppressed or eclipsed and the false self -the addicted self- installed in its place as a kind of Vichy regime to execute the imperatives of its lord and master, addiction. The addict, that is, supposes that he is making his own choices when in fact they are being made for him by his addiction. Yet obvious as this may be and frequently is to those around him, it is normally the most difficult thing of all for the addict himself to grasp or admit".

Excuses Alcoholics Make

Payne9

Thank you for sharing that . I did at one point tell him sorry for trying to control his drinking and his drinking is none of my business. To which he said “ yes it is sort of” I also reminded him it was not me that called him an alcoholic, it was him that says that . He said “ I know , you don’t have to point out that, I know what I said” his tone changed when he said this and I immediately changed the subject because I’m so emotionally exhausted I was not going to argue. I did notice he always tells me to “ take it easy” or “ relax”. I’m just noticing things more. He says the same phrases, I’m sure I do too. It is hard because we don’t hate each other. He knows he’s an alcoholic, we’ve had drawn out fights over it , but not once did he say he wanted to quit. So I don’t know how he’s going to be “ working on himself” when he’s drinking alone at home. I know I have so much to learn and unlearn. Because I still feel for him because I’ve seen the potential but I can’t live my life off of potential, especially because I have children .

trailmix

Why would you want to? From the little you have told us about him he just sounds like an addict really. This usually goes one of 3 ways. The pressure becomes too great and they just bail, full stop. The pressure becomes too much so they detach but keep drinking or they do what your guy is doing, sitting on the fence. Since you are also sitting on the fence (to his mind I should think), he has nothing to lose. When you realize how great you are together:

Maybe you will come flying back to him and accept him just the way he is!

This all seems incredibly manipulative.

Payne9

Truth is we were never great together. We just had some great moments. When he was in his rages he would say he deserves to be alone. Also that he’s ugly and no one wants him, plus everyone always leaves. This is after I’d say something about his drinking and driving etc. This is odd to me because he’s the life of the party when we go out, everyone loves him and buys him drinks. When he’s home he’s depressed, drinks alone with his dog. He’d tell me he won’t drink during the week and wait til the weekend(when I’d come over) and he hardly ever waited til the weekend. He said I enabled him because if I ever came over during the week I’d want a glass a wine and he knows I don’t drink alone.
I know I’m not going back to be with him. He did me a favor by breaking it off and I told him so. I’m learning so I don’t repeat this in the future .

LovelyKaya33333

My exAH told me he was "working on himself" and "working on his drinking"... that is when we were just boyfriend and girlfriend.. the same sentence echoed through out out engagement, marriage and divorce... he is always "working on it"...it was 7 years of him "working on it"... it was a line to appease me ... please don't me be... it was a very sad downword spriral life

Payne9

Thank you gotta this. I just blocked his family and friends off of social media , there’s no reason for them to be there unless I was looking for validation from them . He already told me his friends don’t like me and His family is on his side. Blocking them was really hard for me tho . My best friend had to help me do it

Triggered

In that 2 hour conversation you were talking directly to his AV. In my case it was difficult to finally realise that my AV was making decisions for me. I had to work to push my AV aside and begin to make decisions, relate with people, change my mindset to function with honesty. This is the work he needs to do to escape addiction and there is no other easier way I know of to avoid it. As trailmix has already said, his AV will manilpulate and make excuses and obfuscate, making you believe there is some sort of shangri la further down the line which he is 'working on'. It's just more of the same excuses while he continues his addiction.

It's simply impossible to have a relationship thats healthy for both of you when one (and by attachment, both) of you are in denial. His denial is feeding yours and you need to stop letting it. You need to do that by setting boundaries and if you are determined to have a happy life for you and your children, you will stick to them. His time for excuses and half baked promises is long gone. I've heard you mention a lot of words coming from him but not a lot of action.

Triggered

This has manipulation written all over it. There is a HUGE difference between trying to 'control' his drinking (you couldnt anyway, only he can do that) and setting boundaries because his behaviour is unacceptable to you. Control is practically impossible in this scenario, setting boundaries is a healthy means of self protection that you should definitely stick to...basically, let him know what is acceptable to you for the good of yourself and your kids and what isnt. If he alludes to the fact that you are trying to control him or his drinking, it's only to clear the way for him to carry on drinking remorse free by shifting the focus onto you.

'I did notice he always tells me to “ take it easy” or “ relax” '

translated.....leave me alone to drink, I cant be bothered with your needs or aspirations, my addiction takes greater importance

Payne9

Yes!! There’s no way we can have a future, I know this now. He’s the one that broke things off in the first place. I finally asked him to tell me why. He said it’s because we’d fight so much and it was causing him so much stress. He’s not wrong in the sense of I was trying to change everything about him after I realized his life revolved around drinking and partying . He’s not for me because I will never be okay with his drinking, filthy home, promises of better job but not trying, his friends etc. I remember when he missed worked a lot and I finally asked him , it was because he had another bout of pancreatitis. Plus the almost crapping himself daily. I’m starting to come out of the fog I was in. I knew I hated his drinking but truth is there was a lot else i didn’t like .

trailmix

Yes the "other stuff" can fade off in to the background when the huge thing that alcoholism is at the forefront. Other problems in the relationship for sure but also things in your own life you might want to change or attend to (friendships, work). You might even be in a job you want to change but who's got time for that when all your emotional energy is focused on a dysfunctional relationship!

I can see you are having such clarity about all this right now. That will continue and good for you!

Payne9

I was mad at myself for talking on the phone with him for that long but there were lessons in that convo. Another thing that I realized, we had a pregnancy scare, he wanted me to abort, he’d say it was for my health etc, but then when I told him my drs said it’s healthy for me to carry the baby, he changed his tune. It was then mean texts of “ You were right a kid shouldn’t be part of an alcoholic household, I want to sign over my rights” I then explained to him that’s not how it works. He just kept on how he wasn’t a good man and he wouldn’t be a good father, and in my codependent voice I reassured him he was great ugh !! Every situation was a manipulation didn’t matter what it was. So when I was finally like okay he doesn’t want any part, I had called him and said, that’s fine. He switched on me that now he’d want to be part of the kids life. And his only reason why he said that was because he thought I didn’t want him there. He said, “ I think WE both could of handled it better “ Never any personal responsibility. I was starting to realize this would be my life. With all his health issues already from his alcoholism, I’d be taking care of him before too long and he’s not even close to sobriety.
I appreciate you guys because it’s only been 3 weeks and I’m feeling a lot better .