Ananda

well...the amends stuff sorta confuses me....

I did the treatment 1-5 thing....and my focus was 1/2/3 the 4/5 was sorta feeling like BS....i mean it was the same as always....no release...no new knowledge...

but...when i got home, I ended up calling the person that I have nver forgivin myself for....the man I got pregnant on purpose and then had an abortion.

we talked for a half hour. I didn't appologieze...i didn't make an "amend"

but i feel freer from that pain of 25 years ago than i ever have...and he has a good life...married my ex-sponsor LOL

I've never understood the step 8 and 9.....but i know what happened yesterday was a healing.

anyways...wanted to post...I'm gonna try to not be on the computer all the time....but SR and the 12 step threads are life savers for me

thanks guys

GettingStronger2

Panda,

I'm not there yet in my program. ..but I think just talking to him can be a sort of amends. amends isn't necessarily and apology, or the step would be ". . .became willing to apologize to them. .." It isn't. amends is something different.

I'm glad you found some peace in the phone call.

And it is good to have you back!

amy

Ananda

thanks hon..being the alchoholic i am...filled with self pity...i was twisting the number of people who repsonded vs the people who checked this thread LOL

I don't get all this stuff...and i tend toward the selfpity stuff..but i'm gonna do what i can to get where i need to be in sobriety.

has anyone else got something to share on fredom from the past???

DayTrader

That's what's supposed to happen. Maybe you didn't apologize because you just aren't sorry yet (NOT accusing.....not accusing.....just throwing it out there to consider) but maybe you didn't say sorry because it's not time yet. Maybe that's one of those amends that needs to come a little later when you've got some real experience doing them.

I made amends with my ex-wife somewhat early in my recovery..... I've since gone back and done it again. Turns out, I didn't finish the job and needed a second round, ya know?

And if it makes u feel any better, it wasn't until my.....oh God, I dunno......3rd......5th....20th inventory 2yrs+ in that I was able to feel my first bit of relief from doing 4 & 5.

That relief though...it didn't last until I started making amends.... and those amends didn't "work" until I started saying: Here's all the stuff I think I did: bla bla bla. What else did I do that I've missed? (tough words to say.....lemme tell ya) and ending with: "What can I do to make it right with you?"

Ya know..... I've also found I've had a lot of 8th step reservations and those suckers delayed a TON of happiness in my life. My problem was with that pesky last word: ALL. Really......ALL of them???? heh, yep.....all of them.

Harry01854

Ananda I can only share my own experience. And my experience is that I worked on the process of the Steps with a sponsor. I really don't think that you can actually get a proper perspective about the Steps in a treatment center. There is nothing that can compare to spending time with a sponsor, going over the Steps, one at a time. And your sponsor sharing their own experience with you. Certainly helped me to understand what work to be done on each Step.

Just my own opinion.

Harry

DayTrader

LOL......I think most ppl (myself included) don't like talking about step 9 because most of us are, as Joe Hawk calls it, "stuck on step 9.5" - in other words, we haven't gotten current with ALL our amends.

shaun00

..

You really are the real deal then sir.....it took a huge effort on my part just to write her name on the list..let alone do the amends.
my head was full of "yeah buts" for a long time.....

Sure i prayed......i prayed my butt off and i just couldnt get past the harm she had done to ME......sure its not about me....and with all other amends i could fully absorb that......but with the x and all the history.........blahhhhhh.

Finally after much back and foward......with much praying and with my sponsor using the f word in his "suggestions".....i did the deal and drove round.
Who ever wrote "direct amends" anyhow....lol......

I said "XXXXXX ive come round to try to make right the wrongs ive done to you over the years"...(at this point i mention a few of the worse)....."and if you would allow me to say how deeply sorry i am and if i could right the wrong"

I remember exactly the reply i got and i didnt get over the door step.

went something like this......"yeah you can right the wrong......dont ever ever ever cast your shadow over my doorway again...ever".
next the door is an inch from my nose...lol..lol..lol..

These days we are freinds and laugh about it.......and laugh some more.
Im truly sorry for the harm i put her through.....she knows it.
she also made amends to me without a program......

ananda......im real glad to see you back my freind......all amends are different.
some will take care and long considerations.......some may take a while to achieve....the point is they are all direct and dont get mixed up with me trying to relieve myself of guilt or shame......sweeping up MY damage and harm.

again only my opinion.

Ananda

i'll post later...i just kow i have healed...2 funeralss to go to toromarrow..sorta sorting tonight...it' awsome that my ex still sees my specialness we are good...despite our illess. call me if you kow my number I'm a bit struggling..but hanging n their....no self pity alowed

GettingStronger2

I think that should be the theme of the day! I went through a lot of sh!t over the past week. And I found myself in the deep end of the pool of self pity a couple of times. Well, sink or swim. . .or just GET OUT. I got out.

Selp pity is a very easy way for us alcoholics/addicts to justify using again. I am not going back to that hell. Even if it means I am not allowed to feel sorry for myself. enough is enough.

hang in there, panda. Love you!

DayTrader

LOL...thanks for reminding me. LOL

And you can take this to the bank......the ONLY reason I did it the first time was because I was frickin miserable, my life (IN sobriety) was feeling worse than when I was drinking and I was on a friggin witch-hunt for every half-measure I could find.

The second go-around with her was much harder. How do you go back, after doing this once, and admit to even more stuff.......and ask if there's anything I left out......and ask what I can do to make it right? --and all the while I wanted soooooo badly to point fingers at her cuz "she was the one who cheated / she was the one who left."

Once again.....beaten into submission by alcoholism....many many days removed from my last drink.

skg

In my recovery I was told that the steps are in order for a reason, and that the preparation and action that I take in the early steps builds toward success of subsequent ones. There's a difference between talking to someone (5-Integrity--speaking the truth about myself) and making amends (9-Discipline--going to any lengths to do the next right thing). The difference is the steps in between, and developing the willingness, humility, love and sense of justice to DO the amends.

As I understand the steps, they're designed to find a power bigger than me so that I may forgive others and myself, clear away the wreckage of the past by any means necessary, and move forward with a spiritual awakening that enables me to walk free from fear (if I do the work) one day at a time.

Good for you for working towards it and finding it necessary to take a (drink) shortcut. Keep in mind that the steps are in order for a reason...

skg

Should say, "Good for you for working towards it and NOT finding it necessary to take a (drink) shortcut. Keep in mind that the steps are in order for a reason... "

MaryAnn100

Hi Ananda, good to see you around SR again.

I'm finished step 3 not yet ready to do step 4 because my alcohol counsellor reckons doing it first with a counsellor is the best way because you get proper advice about stuff and it's compartmentalised properly.

As regards amends, amends can be changing your behaviour, it's not just simply or not so simply ( lol ) apologising or flinging yourself on someone's "mercy"!!!!!

Take care,

Annette

Boleo

Since you are a Buddhist, perhaps you will appreciate how the Tantra view spiritual growth. They don't believe in sitting around for decades meditating, they grab the bull by the horns (sometimes literally) and expedite their spiritual awakenings.

In the Tantra religion, spiritual growth is always associated with struggle followed by surrender. They have found through many hundreds of years of experimenting, that nothing expedites spiritual experiences such as; satori, moksha and nirhoda, quite like facing their fears and/or enemies:

Naked and defenseless.
Without excuses, justification or escapes routes.
Letting the chips fall where they may and
detaching from the outcome.

For example, if you admit you are afraid of snakes, your Guru would tell you to go live in a cave, known for having many Cobra's living in it. Taking no weapons or lights, and staying there until you got to know them well enough that the snakes would sleep in your lap.

You think the 9th step amends are tough? There are very few Tantra members who live long enough to make all their amends LOL!

BP44

I was instructed that I don't get to say "I'm sorry", hell, I'd been sorry all my life. Besides, they had all heard that thousands of times. What I got to say was, "I've harmed you and this is the harm I believe I've caused, can you please tell me what I can do to straighten this out?" The next thing I need to do is shut up and listen. I may know what I think I've done to harm that person, but I'm so selfish, I have absolutely no idea what it did to them. And after they've told me what it did to them, they'll also tell me how I can straighten the crooked path and make the books balance. That's what amends is about. It's not about, " Oh Gee, I'm sorry " I can assure you that wouldn't have set well with my wife or any other family member for that matter. When I sat down with my wife, I told her I knew that I had harmed her and we discussed what I thought the harm was, then I shut my mouth, while she let me know exactly what it did to her. Trust me, this is an awakening you do not want to miss!!! And then she told me what I needed to do to mend the broken path. I've been doing just that for quite a while now, and our relationship continues to grow. This is so much more than "I'm sorry" Or " Gee, that's in the past, can't we just let sleeping dogs lie?" Kinda like " Ma, ain't it grand that the wind stopped blowin, don't see nothin the matter here" This is about healing and recovering, and getting free and setting others free. Yes, there is a long period of reconstruction ahead.

Rusty Zipper

nands,

does love still suck? lol

i always love the line,

none of us came here on our virtues alone!

IMO step 9 is the first step in learning some of them,

and living some of them.

if you dont know what the virtues are,

take a gander

What are the Virtues?

keithj

Whatever works for you, but my BB gives me the option of doing that 4th Step 'at once' or 'next' after completing Step 3. It tells me that 'although our decision was a vital and crucial step, it could little permanent effect unless at once followed by a strenuous effort to face and be rid of the things in ourselves which had been blocking us.

Don't wait too long, is all I'm saying. I've seen hundreds of people balk in between the 3rd and 4th Steps, and go get drunk. Some have even made it back from that.

In my experience, hesitation at that point is usually some lingering reservation, some little delusion that I still have some power. And just maybe I am an exception and don't really need this spiritual experience like all you other recovered alcoholics did.

Ananda

bp44...well i guess i just differ on this....a big reason for me to appologize is that it meant everything in the world to me that my father appologized to me. yes it was backed up with change...but i can't tell you how many bullsh*t amends i have had made to me...and they are very formated..about the person being able to say they made the amend...I prefer a heart felt appology any day of the week. Today my understanding is that I CANT make it right...I would if I could...but I can't...acceptance of that seems to me to be a part of step 8/9.....once again understanding that I'm not god....

EricL

Thats not for us to decide though. I was instructed to make amends by discussing what I had done to harm the person, ask them if I overlooked anything, and then deferring to them as to whether or not there was anything I could do to make the situation right. By doing this I appeal to that fundamental idea of god that is in each and every one of us. Sometimes the person I had harmed has some specific instructions (pay me this money back, don't ever talk to me again, etc) other times THEY decide there is nothing to be done and that is fine too. The point is that I am not inserting my will by deciding how and when to make things right, all I do is supply the willingness to do as god (via them) directs me to do.

Desert2trees

Nands,

You asked if anyone had any experiences with making amends.... I'm sure most of us do. I waited 35 years, yes 35 years to even talk to my first husband (we married when I was 17 - kinda shotgun style) for what I did to him. He was the most awesome partner... I just wasn't able to accept someone's unconditional love at the time. I had to get with several assholes before I realized what I did pushing him away, thinking he was soft and not strong.

I did the unthinkable to him. I am a loyal person by nature, honest and today, cheating is the ultimate deal-breaker. I guess it was then too, because though he was willing to forgive me for it, I couldn't forgive myself, and face him day to day, so I left... immediately.

I was just a kid, yes. I was manipulated by an emotionally abusive man, who got me really wasted and took advantage of my vulnerability that night. Ha ha, I fixed him, and me, I spent 4 horrifying years trying to make my mistake work! I got pregnant within a month, and the great guy of a husband I had was even willing to take me back after that and raise my daughter as his own, but I was too full of shame to accept that.

At any rate, just 4 years ago, I hunted my first husband down on the internet and sent him an email. He was glad to hear from me after 35 years, and we exchanged phone numbers. I called him soon after. It was not just "I'm sorry" that I wanted to say to him. I wanted him to understand that he never ever did anything wrong. It was my bad choice. He was, as is his nature, very understanding. I am so glad I contacted him. Cheating on him was the first big mistake of my life. It was comforting to hear that he had remarried, had kids and grandkids and had a good life.

I don't know if this helped. But hopefully it answered your question. I know I owed him an apology at the least, and I did do that... but I was glad to hear (for my own recovery) that I didn't ruin his life, or his ability to reach out again for fear of getting abused again like I did to him. There is no way to take back what we've already done. Many people we make amends to will not respond as favorably as he did, oh and they haven't in my experience. But this process is about making the attempt to set things right. Its all we can do.

Can't change the past. Don't know the future. Right now is all we have.... I have to make the best of my present!

Glad to see you back around hun. You are one of the good ones, in my humble opinion.