keithj

Chops,

I copied your post over to a new thread in the hopes that we don't hijack the other one. This probably deserves a thread of its own. Hope that's OK with you and others.

Chops

No problem....

keithj

Let me start with this idea. Actually, let me start with apologizing for the tone of my posts. It is not my intent to make you, or anyone else, feel this way, or to belittle your recovery.

You've brought this same idea up in a couple of other threads. This idea of the 'us versus them' attitude. I am very guilty of this. It's been my truthful experience.

When I got hooked up with solution based AA, a term that is already loaded with the idea of 'different' than AA, it did seem like a whole different AA than what I had previously been aware of. Even now, I attend a mainstream (another loaded term that denotes separation) AA meeting, and I can hardly recognize it as the same AA of which I am a part.

So, I don't think the separation is being imposed or fostered. It just is. If I'm engaged in one solution, the one in the BB, and somebody else is engaged in something else, then we are doing different things. It's just the way it is.

As to feeling like I'm putting you, or anybody else, down for a '2nd class recovery', I've been thinking about this for a few years. Maybe this idea will just tick people off, and maybe it's just an ego-made invention so that I can feel better, but I'll throw it out there in the hopes of a better understanding and less of that separation feeling.

I talk about my own personal spiritual awakening as the result of the 12 Steps. I talk about the profound impact that has had on all areas of my life. And I talk about the non-optional work that I find necessary to stay on that 4th dimension rocket.

Is it possible that somebody who is not doing that work, or doesn't find it necessary, will feel slighted by this? Because I can see how when I hear that someone else is doing all of this, and getting this great result, and I know in my heart that I am not doing those things or having that result, my first response is to get defensive. I know that from my own life.

People are going to share about what they know. It's all any of us brings to the table. We all want to feel included and a part of this deal. Regardless of the topic, somebody in a meeting will share about how grateful they are about coming in to AA, making some new friends, and learning to have fun sober. For that person, it's 100% true experience. It's what they bring to the table.

But then I share about having had a spiritual awakening as the result of the 12 Steps. And even though I wasn't sharing 'at' them, it sounds to them like my experience is somehow better than theirs.

And why does it sound like that? Because it's different experience. I talk about the results produced by the Steps. And if someone hasn't done the Steps, it implies that they aren't going to have that result. Really, all I've done is share my experience with the program of AA.

I'll get back to this later as well. It's a great topic, and a discussion I think we should be having.

Boleo

Imagine if you will, it is 1960 and seat-belts are just being introduced to the automobile industry. Most people don't think they are necessary and think it is ludicrous to suggest everyone should pay the extra money to have them installed in every new car.

However, there is a certain percentage of the population, say 10%, who have done the research on them and recognize the advantages of having everyone wear them. Then there are still others who have been in a car crash where a seat belt might have saved them much pain and suffering.

Who would be more politically correct? Those that say freedom of choice is more important, or those that say safety is more important?

keithj

It's not even that, is it, Boleo? I think everyone sincerely interested in any kind of recovery has perfect freedom of choice to attend AA or not. Or to install seat belts or not.

What I'm trying to understand is why the people who dislike seat belts so much come to a seat belt lover's club, and get upset, uncomfortable, or put off by talk about the wondrous benefits of seat belts.

Chops has brought up one good reason for this upset feeling, and I'm trying to get a grip on it. He's not alone in his feeling.

Maybe the starting point is the assumption that AA is a seat belt lover's club. If I come to AA with the assumption that AA is a car lover's club, or in this case, a sobriety club, then I can see how all this talk about the 12 steps gets annoying.

Or maybe I'm completely missing the analogy.

Mark75

My own experience, reaction, whatever is... This thing called recovery, being recovered, in AA is a journey of rigorous honesty, it is difficult at times... My own tendency towards half measures on this challenging journey is probably not unique... I find that the rewards can be great... but only if I work the program as it is meant to be.

Folks like keithj and others, some who are regrettably no longer posting on SR, have served to be a source of great inspiration... though they can be a real pain in the @ss and seemingly cranky at times... But this is only because they know the rewards of working this simple, not easy, program.

So I don't see it as two camps in AA, rather... AA is comprised of those who work it and those who sort of work it... It's OK... I don't see it as us and them... I get something from everyone, and I try to give back when I can, though I am still a beginner.

Music

"So I have done the steps, the obsession has been removed, my mother no longer cries herself to sleep at night, and my life is the balls, blah blah blah. I was an enlarged liver, close to homeless, morning vodka drinker who is frankly surprised that God has had the grace to show me AA and put me where I am now. But according to your standard there is no way I have had a spiritual awakening."

Well Chops, my idea of a spiritual awakening might dictate that there may be one of some sorts here in your statement. Other than the fact that you seem to come off as an unappreciative, ungrateful MFer at least you have what it takes to be honest about how you feel. Just keep doing what you're doing and the rest will take care of itself. Congrats on your 2 1/2 years by the way. You're apparently doing something that works. If God demanded perfection, most of us would be losers.

Tommyh

every AA meeting has a solution of sorts for me
in my big book it plainly reads[as my sponsor repeatedly pointed out]

Helping others is the foundation stone of your recovery. A kindly act once in a while isn’t enough. You have to act the Good Samaritan every day, if need be.


he pointed out act as being a important word
there are days when we want to do it,and days when we just have to act like we want to do it,but it never tells me to wait until I feel like doing it

with that in mind,every AA meeting has a place for me to be of service somehow,some way,to someone
so with me that is a uniting factor = u s

keithj

As I understand it, Chops, this is the root of your bad feelings and distaste. You feel like I, or somebody else, lumps you into the category of 'the rest of AA' because you don't necessarily like the BB and the Steps? I agree that the idea of 'a select, elite few of us actually do the work, while the rest of you are missing the boat' sounds pretty insulting.

First, in your case in particular, you've done the work, right? You've had a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps. So maybe you get lumped in with the 10% instead.

Second, it doesn't matter what I, or anybody else, thinks of your recovery. My experience in AA works very well for me. The promises are true in my life. Nobody, and I mean nobody, can take that away or lessen that experience for me in any way. It's my life, and I live it every day, and it is exactly what it is. It's not under any threat today from anybody's opinion of it.

Third, is the statement even true? How many AA members, or people that attend AA regularly, actually do the program of recovery suggested in AA? I really don't know. And then, if we figure that out, if it is a true statement (crudely put, 10% of us and then the rest of you), is that statement an insult or just a statement of fact?

I don't know the answer to the first part. In my home group, every person in the room has had a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps, or is new and is in the process of the Steps.

As far as other groups go, I just don't know. Well, I do know about the people I'm close to, but that's a limited group as well. So, a judgment has been made about who is living by the suggested spiritual AA principles based on words and actions.

I would say, for me, I would make the assumption that somebody is not working the program of AA when they say things like 'just don't drink and go to meetings', 'think the drink through', or some other thing that blatantly contradicts the experience contained in the BB.

Shoot, as I'm writing this, I realize that I can leave judgment of someone's actions (known by the fruits they bear) completely out of this. Just based on the statements alone in the meetings, I'd be confident saying that far fewer than 50% of the people are sharing recovery solutions that are compatible with the BB.

I'm just thinking out loud as I'm typing. So yeah, I think it's a true statement. Whether 10% or some other percentage, a minority of people in the rooms of AA are sharing about a recovery solution that coincides with the BB. I think that's a very true statement.

Is it insulting? Obviously it is to some. And that's what I'd love to hear more about from those that are insulted by the truth of that statement.

Chops

To start with I don't buy into this 10 or 15% to start with. Based on observations of what people say for an hour a day or a week we can then make a generalization of what members do in a fellowship of millions? I don't think so.

Many people practice this principals in all of their affairs without talking about it AA, some people believe that they live the steps without going through them the traditional way, are they now not doing AA?

And on to me, brother, based on my not raising my hand to sponsor people and having no real internal desire to do so, according to your standard and correct me if I am wrong, there is no way I could have had the spiritual awakening?


I think it is a faulty premise. Just like when someone says "1 in 25 are qualified to sponsor" based on a internet discussion. Again, we often don't see how people act at home or in their daily affairs. My experience, and I have no percentages and it is just anecdotal is that often the recovery talkers are into some what I consider shady dealings in their life, but not judging them is what I need to do. Not put them into a nice neat category that makes me feel better about me.

I can not even begin to say whether or not the people in my groups have had a spiritual awakening, since I believe that a spiritual awakening is defined by each member. What may be an awakening for one member may not be for another. My definition will certainly not suit everyone in the hall, so if they do not meet chop's standard are they now not recovered? Are they now unworthy to sponsor?

The BB has stories as well as a program of action, so when someone shares something besides the steps at a meeting it may be helping an another alcoholic, it may not help you or you may not like. Regardless, your throwing out a percentage based on your observations and I am very uncomfortable with your confidence in doing that. It may be semantics but why not say "In my observations" instead of making a blanket statement about AA?

I believe the book says "at certain times" there is no effective mental defense and that the defense must come from a higher power. So "think the drink through" is some of the best advice I have ever got. I accepted what Silkworth said and in the moment I wanted a drink before in my sobriety I thought about the horror and that I would not be able to stop on my own. So I don't find that contradictory to the BB. I have a mental defense and then rely on my HP for the strange mental blank spots and the times where no human power can help.


Let me try to say it without getting too worked up:-) Its the judging of other members in something that is so important and personal and extremely difficult as recovery that gets me. How can you people continue to categorize people based on something like a spiritual awakening? What is your definition should be my question.

I no longer obsess over booze, I do not regret the pass nor wish to shut the door on it, my fear of economic insecurity is greatly lessened, I have a relationship with a HP that is of my understanding. More important to me is that I don't wake up with vodka, hurt my family, and am not killing my organs. Yet I still have character defects and certain faults, one of them I was honest about in my post... AA has made me as honest as I ever have been, I cannot lie about how I feel, so when I am not feeling the same way as you and I am now not considered to have had a spirtual awakening it pisses me off. It seems you want spiritual perfection rather than spiritual progress.

If someone in the meeting is not doing the suggested program of recovery to the letter then they are still "doing AA", they are just maybe doing it slower. But to tell them they are not doing AA or are a dry drunk (as some do) or that they are not doing any work is insulting at least to me. Sure by all means share your experience with the steps, etc. Maybe that is what they are waiting for. Kudos to you. But I went 10 months without hearing about the steps. Not because it was not said in meetings. But I was not listening. Then God put someone in my life that allowed me to hear the message. It was in God's time not mine. So when we say someone is doing AA just because of not doing the steps at some point in time them then in IMHO we are judging God's timeline and his plan as well as the member.

I guess in this time that I wanted to stay sober so bad that God helped me, I am not always clear how to articulate it.

The funny thing is that I understand the ability to make AA "us and them" but I fight against. This is probably gonna cause some trouble but here it goes. I stay sober without chemicals, my sponsor taught me that we have lost the right to chemical peace of mind and that I cannot pop a pill and say that I am sober. No chemicals was one of his requirements along with doing the steps if he was to sponsor me.

Now I loved hearing this, cause Chops loves to think he is better than the members in the room talking they are sober but on a benzo or some other chemical. You see, I think it is harder for me since I am dealing with all my thoughts, feelings, emotions and anxiety, having to feel them without a buffer. "I am doing real work"

So when I lean over to my sponsor and say something like "that guy talking about how he is sober and then the next breath talking about his anti-depressants is full of it" my sponsor has the same answer. "None of your business" and he goes on to say if I judge that member then I am judging God, because God is either everything or he is nothing. I am not running the AA show, everything that happens in AA is for a reason that only he knows. I need to get out of the judging game. They are a member of AA, fighting the good fight against booze with me, they need no other category and belong to the same AA. That is hard for me to always think with this ego:-)

So yeah I am in work in progress but I have had a spiritual awakening and will not let anyone try to take it away.

"To thine own self be true", I know no other way. So if what I say in a meeting or on SR for that matter or how I comport myself in life leads you to believe that I have not had a spiritual experience then I guess I need to learn to get over it. I am trying, but based on my posts you can see that I am not there yet.

I find it insulting to that others sit on a message board and throw out percentages with no real way to back them up. I find it insulting to me that others so easily judge spiritual awakenings and are okay with it. I actually find it quite scary.

24hrsAday

Chops..Wow.. Great Stuff There Man! progress not perfection! my sponsor says "you are a member if you say you are!" (good morning Keith)

yeahgr8

At the end of the day we all make up AA...

Them and us...if only it were that transparent for the newcomers, unfortunately when i walked into AA, like others i have heard share, i assumed that everyone there was sober and knew what they were doing...i was lucky enough to find a good sponsor who had worked the steps and had a spiritual awakening...but then again i believe if the pupil is ready the teacher will appear...

So...i do accept that maybe 10-15% of the room will be recovered...and i do accept that if God wants one of them to help a newcomer who is ready then he will, in some way, get them together...

Where is my responsibility? Well to attend meetings so that i am there when the new guy needs help and also to keep myself spiritually fit whilst also being a good representation of the solution of AA...

I have to be honest it scares the hell out of me to think that the next cliff might bump into someone who tells them to just come to meetings and everything will get better but like i said if it's their time to get sober and they are ready and God's will is for them to do so then they will bump into that recovered guy or girl...

That's about it for me the rest we could carry on talking about forever and come to no real answer or conclusion...it is what it is and its not perfect but thats the way it is...

RobbyRobot

Yeah, that works for me too, "at certain times" is what it has always said whenever I read it. Myself, I've always thought the drink through sober or drunk actually truth be told. As a drinking alcoholic, of course, that thinking was done with an alcoholic mind, with the appropiate results: I drank the drink i was thinking about drinking. Thinking the drink through with a sober mind also has the appropriate results: my continued sobriety with no relapse and sans slipping. It has always worked for me like this and I can (do) depend on the results. As a bonus, it's been many years since I had to even think about drinking whatsoever either way. Its now a non-issue and unimportant. Its a great place to be from where I started so very long ago. How I got here isn't magical. Its just spiritual. Nothing for me to brag about. Its not rocket science and I didn't invent it. Its all been laid out for me by countless others before me. I did my work and got my results.

I hear you taking honest ownership for yourself without putting your troubles on the backs of others. You don't manipulate your ongoing personal issues with using the sufferings and confusions of others to validate your own struggles with problems and solutions. I respect that, naturally. I got that (my) understanding from your share of walking in God's good time and not your own timetable. You have a great relationship with your Higher Power of your own understanding, imo, and you have articulated that clear enough for this sober alcoholic man.

Yeah, living a sober spiritual life is not a destination for me, its a journey plain and simple. And its an experience not of my own, but of many millions of others around the world. We're on a great adventure of real life freedom from alcoholism. What is there not to love?

Great share, Chops. For one so young in sober living, you got it nailed down good and solid. Salut!

warm regards,
Robby

keithj

Thanks, Chops. Yours is an articulate and well reasoned post.

I can start with saying that I have no qualification, or business, in judging a spiritual awakening in someone else. I wouldn't know where to begin. The only thing that might (and I mean might) be any of my business is the message carried in AA. And it's only my message I need have any concern with. I don't want to get into any discussion about who has had a spiritual awakening.

The discussion we are having, I think, is about the discomfort you and I both feel when someone shares something we don't like in a meeting or on an internet forum. And we both know the answer to that discomfort is found within ourselves. Put simply, we both grind over stuff we hear.

The only thing we're really talking about is what is acceptable discussion in an AA meeting. It's really the only observable thing we've got. I totally agree that some folks talk a good game, and live a different one. Likewise, some folks live a great game, and say little about it. But we both have ears, and can hear what is being shared in a meeting.

Let's look at where we can agree.

I think that there is no way someone who has not taken the 12 Steps and had a spiritual awakening as the result, can sponsor someone else to do the same. It's not that they are not allowed to or forbidden from it. It's just going to be real difficult for someone to share experience with something they have never done themselves.

Whether it's 1% or 99% percent, I hope we can start with the idea that some members of AA have not done AA's program of recovery, and therefore have little business trying to guide another through AA's program of recovery. That, to me, is the pinnacle of arrogance.

Now that's a tough one. Many people have found a spiritual life that is effective in removing the mental obsession to drink, or they have some other means of staying sober. Lifering, SMART, counseling, any number of things can be effective. But none of those things are the AA program of recovery.

My response to this is, if someone has found a great way of having a spiritual awakening that keeps them sober, great. Please write it down and start your own recovery program. The reason I say this is directly in accordance with Tradition 1. Unity from page 17. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree.

If you don't agree with that way out, or have found a different way, fantastic. But AA is about this one way that we all agree on. We agree on it because it has worked for us.

So this is the fundamental communication idea I was bringing up. What I said was, that when I had a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps, service and sponsorship took on new meaning. I didn't say anything about you. But what you heard, obviously, was that because you don't share my experience with it, you must be a phony. But I don't think I said that. And if I did, I was wrong to say it.

I would ask, why don't you know this? I'll hazard a guess that it's because nobody is talking about it. And here is where I shake my head in frustration.

The final end result of AA's program of recovery is to have a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps. That's what keeps AA members sober. And you are in a room full of people, and nobody mentions having had a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps. How can we possibly call that AA? It's the entire purpose for which we are gathered together. To share with another alcoholic how we have recovered, so that they can recover as well. And nobody mentions how they have recovered?

The BB does say at certain times. How will I know when those times are occurring? Is this one of those times when I have a mental defense, or is this one of those times, like Jim and Fred, when I'm just screwed?

We can debate that until the cows come home. But really, and this came up in another thread, it's tough to debate it when we derive such a different meaning from the same words. I look at the context and the spirit of the BB, as well as the specific words. Was the intent of those words to mean that I could effectively talk myself out of having a drink? Or was the intent of those words to inform me that I will not be able to recall with sufficient force the suffering and humiliation of even a week or month ago? I think the intent is to inform me that I am without defense. That I better have defense from a higher power, or I am going to drunk just like Jim and Fred did.

Chops, I can go over to the Newcomers forum and read the results of real alcoholics trying to think through the drink. They are getting drunk on a daily basis.




This same idea came up a number of times in your post. I just won't categorize people based on something like that. I don't know. All I can go by is the message somebody is carrying in the meetings.

Just like membership in AA, you've done the deal (taken the Steps and had an awakening) if you say you have. You may have done them differently than I have, and you may have different results, but I'm not going to get into any debates on 'quality' of spirituality.

That 'progress not perfection' idea is probably where this discussion really starts. It's a phrase I hear often used to justify working 'their program' instead of the AA program. Or to justify some bad action. It's just a guess, but I'd bet that the phrase got written in response to the Oxford Group's 4 Absolutes. Bill W. knew that alkies would reject the idea of absolute adherence to anything.

I am not perfectly honest, perfectly selfless, perfectly pure, or perfectly loving. But, by living by the principles of AA, I, like you, am better than I have ever been in all those areas. That phrase is not an excuse though, to justify doing whatever I want in AA.

Much like the apologetic, 'we know only a little and more will be revealed'. Well sure, that's true. But let's take advantage of the little bit we do know at the moment. And what we do know is that the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous will lead to a spiritual awakening and a life beyond your expectations, not to mention sobriety.

And we also know, that in AA, once this has occurred (spiritual awakening as result of the Steps), we should try to carry the message of that spiritual awakening. We know these things. So why are we so scared to talk about them in an AA meeting? Why is that discussion so infuriating for some people?

And what I'm hearing from you Chops, is that the message is not infuriating. It's the perception that you are being dissed or put down that is infuriating.

Whew, too many words here. I don't mean to not address the rest of it, but I'll let it simmer for a bit.

RobbyRobot

A bit different for me. When I got to AA i assumed that everyone there was simply inbetween drinks, same as me, lol. I had zero expectations that AA worked or even that sober living worked. It was months later that I could see the wrongness of my thinking and my actions. I stayed with it and stayed sober from day one. It was difficult. Sobriety did not come easy to me even with examples of people living sober lives all around me. Also of course were examples of what I was originally thinking. I slowly made simple choices to be a sober spiritual living drunk with arrested alcoholism as an illness, and to help others be the same. Both drinking and non-drinking memebrs of AA helped me reach those simple choices. I don't worry about who is or is not going to make it in AA. Never have and never will. Its never been up to me to worry about. Its none of my business.

Like you're already clearly saying Cliff, it is our (my) ongoing responsibility to be sober and be spiritually well and fit both for myself, and for the next guy and gal too, just like it was for me in my turn back at the begining of my journey.

Cheers!

Rob

Mark75

My take on that is slightly different... Since I am christian, I will have to put it to you within that construct... Jesus was the only human being that was perfect in His love of God, His obedience to His will, and His faith... and that He was perfect in this regard probably had a little to do with being the son of God ...

My best friend is not alcoholic... he was never at an AA meeting... We have this "progress not perfection" discussion regularly at our semi monthly breakfast... to be human is to have imperfect faith...

It's got everything to do with the challenge of living a spiritual life, regardless of whether you are alcoholic, working the 12 step program... or not.

Mark

Chops

@Robby, Thanks for your words.

Lol its night where I am so I am going to respond to a bit.... Thanks for your post.



I gotta think about this one :-) We agree to a point.



Not a different way, some people believe that they do the steps but not like how I did them. I have heard people share that they were doing the steps but not in an organized fashion with a sponsor. That is not my experience but if someone rolls that way then fine by me. So they are doing AA but in a different manner.


What I heard in the other thread was that a reason that many people don't raise there hands to sponsor people is that they must have not had the spiritual awakening. I believe that you posited the premise that one cannot have had an awakening and not be raising their hand to sponsor people. I refuted that fact and said well I have had the awakening but don't chase sponsees, etc.

Not you in particular but SR is full of posts and AA is full of people who pass judgment on who is recovered and who is not recovered in their own dealings in AA and then use that as a basis for a blanket statement about AA. (there is a post in thread doing just that) I find that faulty because someone can say they have had a spiritual awakening and then be drinking in the parking lot after the meeting and hitting on the newcomer girls (seen it), and also (I am no expert) but the statistics just cannot be considered accurate for a fellowship as big as ours organized the way it is.

And the fact is that I think there are alot of phonies in AA, but I am not okay with me thinking that. I am working against my judgemental tendencies everyday. So I know where the feelings come from. Like I said, my head says that I am better since I don't buffer emotions with pills. I have my own percentages in my head concerning who is really sober. But I think I am a shyte for doing that. I know it is wrong, know it is ego, know it is dangerous for me as a drunk. So I keep upfront the notion that when I judge and categorize, especially based on the amount of time I see someone in a meeting then that is wrong. Furthermore, I am not just judging a person, I am judging God and taking issue with how he runs things.

His show and his time.......

Some say it, and that is fine, is it the truth? Dunno. Street angel home devil. Do I think some have had it, sure, but I also think that when the waitress at IHOP smiles at me it means that she is in love. Some never talk about it but I think I can tell there is something solid within them.

But I do not go home with them and see them in all of their affairs. So I have no idea what they practice.

I keep it at that I have had the awakening and thats it. Simpler for me that way at this point in my sobriety.

People doing the steps are relapsing as well, does not mean the steps don't work, they do. Just like thinking through the drink has worked me.

I never tell anyone to think a drink through, I talk about works for me and that is it.

Maybe semantics but that is cool for me (lol as if you need my approval) but yeah, I can understand making a judgement on who is talking the steps.
But at the same time Keith, for me, steps are not the only message in AA. And steps are not the only thing that has helped me. Before, during and after is what helps me. For me I like the during stories, dunno why, just how I am wired, hearing about the horrors reminds me of my horrors and makes me determined not to go back.

And my HP has put me in the room to hear some stories that have helped me. So it is not human power that I am relying on it is the power of my HP working through people. I rely on God to put me where he wants so I hear what I need to hear. And I may hear the message through any of his vessels, he is the one assigning the roles not me. And that sucks since I hate listening to some people.

I have gone home from a meeting and realized that the "thumper" in the meeting who I wanted to kill 20 mins ago was saving my life once I let myself listen to what he was saying.

So everything in AA is the work of God and I am not privy to his plans and what roles he has assigned for the day, therefore I am actually in no position to know what is a message and what is not. Maybe God decided to assign a role and send a message and not send me the memo. (the nerve of him)


I will finish up later.

Thanks for the talk, I appreciate it.

Boleo

I am glad to hear someone talk about this. I have spent years aiming at a target which has "Spiritual Awakening" as it's bullseye. When I finally managed to hit the bullseye, I felt obligated to share my experience with others.

Low & behold, I found out most everyone else was aiming at a completely different target which had "abstinence" as it's bullseye. Now I catch hell from people for even talking about this target that they are not even aware exists.

A target I might add, which is not so unique to me. There is a 600+ page book written about it and still some people tell me I am suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Harry01854

Why it happens, I don't know. Here where I live, most people will get up at the podium and share their drunk-a-log. Destruction, jailtime and the likes. Their final point being that they got to A.A. and now they haven't had a drink for xxxx amount of time. Very rarely do I hear about the 12 Steps, spiritual awakening or living a better life. Some like to get up there and make a comedy hour of it, like everytime they drank it became a comedy show. Other times they get up there and share their sob stories and start crying. And I have to admit, before I started hearing a few people share about a spiritual program, the 12 Steps and a life of freedom, I too shared the same way. Thought that was suppose to be the way it was.

After I had been through the process I found out different. I would go on commitments and share about what A.A. has to offer for a new way to live a better life, the 12 Steps. One time when I did so, a member from a Big Book Step Study meeting came up to me and let me know that when somebody like me gets up to speak, it is the only time that the other people at the meeting hear about the Big Book.

How did this ever get started with just drunk-a-logs and why does it continue?

I don't have any answers for these questions. What I have come to realize though, is that the only thing I can do about it is to continue to pass on the message from the Big Book.

Harry

firestorm090

This thread has really helped me tonight. I went to an AA meeting today and when I left, I asked myself what the hell was that all about. It was an open discussion meeting, and the topic for today turned out to be offered from a lady at the meeting about dating in AA. I know that different meetings are good for different things, but I hate going to meetings that sound like an episode of Oprah. If I wanted to 3watch Oprah, I'd tune in. I went because I got really drunk two days ago, and am trying to stop getting drunk. The truth is I'm beginning to think these meetings are a waste of time. When I left there, I was wondering just how is all that I heard today gonna keep me sober tonight? Or help me stay sober?

I think I've gotten all confused about all this. The solution seems to be in a spiritual awakening and I'm not even close to that. I'm just your average, run of the mill drunk with a BB on my coffee table that I don't understand too much and a headache from going out two nights ago, so I'm reading here to try to understand what I'm missing.

This spiritual stuff is still stumping me, so I know for a fact that I haven't had a spiritual awakening, experience or whatever you want to call it and I'm holding on to this keyboard just so I don't get drunk tonight. That's a sad place to be.