2 Different AAs--Chops's post from reluctant Sponsor thread
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 56
In my experience, there are a lot of people staying sober in AA who do not help others in any way. I go to meetings and no one speaks to me. I got a sponsor and after a few days she said that she had too many sponsee's and handed me off to a woman who rarely answered her phone. There is no help in AA from a human standpoint that I can see, however it does help me keep a closer connection with God.
problem with authority
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
I agree that having a spiritual awakening sufficient to recover from alcoholism is what A.A. offers.
I can learn about how this works in two ways: from people who talk about having had a spiritual awakening, and from people who show me by their works that they have had one.
For me, seeing it in action is much more powerful and attractive than hearing about it.
M
I can learn about how this works in two ways: from people who talk about having had a spiritual awakening, and from people who show me by their works that they have had one.
For me, seeing it in action is much more powerful and attractive than hearing about it.
M
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by KarenElaine 
In my experience, there are a lot of people staying sober in AA who do not help others in any way. I go to meetings and no one speaks to me. I got a sponsor and after a few days she said that she had too many sponsee's and handed me off to a woman who rarely answered her phone. There is no help in AA from a human standpoint that I can see, however it does help me keep a closer connection with God.
Best wishes.
Robby
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,402
I think keithj and chops both had valid points along with everyone else. This is what makes AA interesting. Everyone is unique in their own way. I also think everyone needs to share what they're going through regarding the steps. Not everyone interprets it the same way, even though the steps are written one way.
I agree with keithj when he says we have one common solution. And that probably most people in AA aren't following the steps the way they're written in the Big Book, therefore violating the first tradition.
But I also agree with chops when he says he's just not there yet, and that maybe it will happen on God's terms. And what if chops never decides to go full force with the steps but remains sober the rest of his life? Would he be a success? Absolutely.
I personally have shifted my philosophy regarding AA and the steps. I've been in the fourth dimension of existence since I re-applied myself to the steps according to the Big Book last April. It truly does work if you work the steps the way it says. I had some sort of spiritual experience that was somewhere in between a "sudden" and "gradual" awakening.
But I've also shifted to the point where I now only consider the passages from the Big Book for my recovery. It even bothers me when people read the 24 hour book as part of the opening to a meeting. Because it's not part of the Big Book. It bothers me when people read the 12 & 12 in a meeting. Because it's not part of the Big Book. I only want to hear out of the Big Book now.
This shift naturally is going to cause conflict within myself and sometimes with other people. I realize this. But I feel as though I am locked in now. The missing link that was present for many years has now been fulfilled as a result of doing the steps out of the Big Book. The scary thing is I don't think I would even know how to go back to the way I was when I had the missing link. I'm afraid to go back there. So I cling to God and the Big Book, afraid to let go of it.
Say I'm at a meeting with lots of sobriety there. Person A has 12 years. He has a hard time holding a job. He's indifferent. He has some issues. I think he's asking God for help. But I know he's not doing inventory and amends. I know he's not reading the Big Book.
Person B has 30 years. A wonderful guy who I admire. He turns it over to God. He does inventory. But he doesn't do amends. He believes that sobriety has more to do with how you live rather than doing stuff out of the Big Book. In fact he doesn't even read the Big Book.
Person C has 40 years sobriety. A very respectable guy who everyone looks up to. He says he does a ton of AA readings each day. But believe it or not he does not even touch the Big Book.
Person D has 20 years. A very funny lady. She doesn't do the steps, but is involved with regional AA activities. She believes in mainly reading the AA Grapevine. She won't open up a Big Book.
So there you have it. That is what many of the meetings consists of. There's lots of people with long term sobriety. But as you can see many aren't staying sober from the Big Book. The biggest thing I see is many people philosophize about the steps but they're not doing them. Neither are they teaching the newcomers how to do the steps.
But I think there has to be a middle ground here. If these people are indeed staying sober they are doing something right. Maybe they're not there yet. Maybe they'll never get there. Maybe they're using other literature to stay sober. Maybe we're all part of the problem for AA being watered down because so many things are AA approved now, including the Grapevine, which basically is a bunch of stories and not much on the steps.
So if someone reads the Grapevine, 24 hour book and 12 & 12, which are all AA approved, but not reading the Big Book, is AA itself part of the problem for having so many choices other than the Big Book?
I agree with keithj when he says we have one common solution. And that probably most people in AA aren't following the steps the way they're written in the Big Book, therefore violating the first tradition.
But I also agree with chops when he says he's just not there yet, and that maybe it will happen on God's terms. And what if chops never decides to go full force with the steps but remains sober the rest of his life? Would he be a success? Absolutely.
I personally have shifted my philosophy regarding AA and the steps. I've been in the fourth dimension of existence since I re-applied myself to the steps according to the Big Book last April. It truly does work if you work the steps the way it says. I had some sort of spiritual experience that was somewhere in between a "sudden" and "gradual" awakening.
But I've also shifted to the point where I now only consider the passages from the Big Book for my recovery. It even bothers me when people read the 24 hour book as part of the opening to a meeting. Because it's not part of the Big Book. It bothers me when people read the 12 & 12 in a meeting. Because it's not part of the Big Book. I only want to hear out of the Big Book now.
This shift naturally is going to cause conflict within myself and sometimes with other people. I realize this. But I feel as though I am locked in now. The missing link that was present for many years has now been fulfilled as a result of doing the steps out of the Big Book. The scary thing is I don't think I would even know how to go back to the way I was when I had the missing link. I'm afraid to go back there. So I cling to God and the Big Book, afraid to let go of it.
Say I'm at a meeting with lots of sobriety there. Person A has 12 years. He has a hard time holding a job. He's indifferent. He has some issues. I think he's asking God for help. But I know he's not doing inventory and amends. I know he's not reading the Big Book.
Person B has 30 years. A wonderful guy who I admire. He turns it over to God. He does inventory. But he doesn't do amends. He believes that sobriety has more to do with how you live rather than doing stuff out of the Big Book. In fact he doesn't even read the Big Book.
Person C has 40 years sobriety. A very respectable guy who everyone looks up to. He says he does a ton of AA readings each day. But believe it or not he does not even touch the Big Book.
Person D has 20 years. A very funny lady. She doesn't do the steps, but is involved with regional AA activities. She believes in mainly reading the AA Grapevine. She won't open up a Big Book.
So there you have it. That is what many of the meetings consists of. There's lots of people with long term sobriety. But as you can see many aren't staying sober from the Big Book. The biggest thing I see is many people philosophize about the steps but they're not doing them. Neither are they teaching the newcomers how to do the steps.
But I think there has to be a middle ground here. If these people are indeed staying sober they are doing something right. Maybe they're not there yet. Maybe they'll never get there. Maybe they're using other literature to stay sober. Maybe we're all part of the problem for AA being watered down because so many things are AA approved now, including the Grapevine, which basically is a bunch of stories and not much on the steps.
So if someone reads the Grapevine, 24 hour book and 12 & 12, which are all AA approved, but not reading the Big Book, is AA itself part of the problem for having so many choices other than the Big Book?
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by firestorm090
This thread has really helped me tonight.
This spiritual stuff is still stumping me, so I know for a fact that I haven't had a spiritual awakening, experience or whatever you want to call it and I'm holding on to this keyboard just so I don't get drunk tonight. That's a sad place to be.
This spiritual stuff is still stumping me, so I know for a fact that I haven't had a spiritual awakening, experience or whatever you want to call it and I'm holding on to this keyboard just so I don't get drunk tonight. That's a sad place to be.
What such experiences give is the foundation to live a spiritual life with your sobriety, meaning you will be much more than just a not drinking alcoholic. Your sobriety will become a way of living your daily life with a spiritual purpose by having come to a understanding of your own Higher Power. The key here is your own understanding. Your. Own. Understanding.
Its really that simple. It is so difficult for the alcoholic mind to grasp a spiritual understanding, so be patient with your progress, as your mind changes into a sane sober mind. For most of us, that takes some time to realize. It will happen as you work the program and be amongst the fellowship. The BB will eventually make sense as well. Be hopeful and patient. Stay with it. Sorry for your troubles, Dallas.
Rob
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by uncle holmes
But I think there has to be a middle ground here. If these people are indeed staying sober they are doing something right. Maybe they're not there yet. Maybe they'll never get there. Maybe they're using other literature to stay sober. Maybe we're all part of the problem for AA being watered down because so many things are AA approved now, including the Grapevine, which basically is a bunch of stories and not much on the steps.
So if someone reads the Grapevine, 24 hour book and 12 & 12, which are all AA approved, but not reading the Big Book, is AA itself part of the problem for having so many choices other than the Big Book?
So if someone reads the Grapevine, 24 hour book and 12 & 12, which are all AA approved, but not reading the Big Book, is AA itself part of the problem for having so many choices other than the Big Book?
Alcoholism is a progressive illness. I do keep that in mind as i try and sort out my experiences with A.A. I also know that we are on a slippery slope when we start to find guilt within the very members and fellowship we pledge to serve. We all know the motto: "A house divided against itself cannot stand." Personally, I blame the whole mess on alcoholism and not on the backs of alcoholics. We're all in this together sober or drunk, its a fellowship that is what it is, and although it can always be better, there will always be a drunk somewhere needing some sober love and understanding, and A.A. has that to give already, so for me, it ain't broke already.
Rob
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: far far from home
Posts: 373
Originally Posted by Harry01854
Why it happens, I don't know. Here where I live, most people will get up at the podium and share their drunk-a-log. Destruction, jailtime and the likes. Their final point being that they got to A.A. and now they haven't had a drink for xxxx amount of time. Very rarely do I hear about the 12 Steps, spiritual awakening or living a better life. Some like to get up there and make a comedy hour of it, like everytime they drank it became a comedy show. Other times they get up there and share their sob stories and start crying. And I have to admit, before I started hearing a few people share about a spiritual program, the 12 Steps and a life of freedom, I too shared the same way. Thought that was suppose to be the way it was.
After I had been through the process I found out different. I would go on commitments and share about what A.A. has to offer for a new way to live a better life, the 12 Steps. One time when I did so, a member from a Big Book Step Study meeting came up to me and let me know that when somebody like me gets up to speak, it is the only time that the other people at the meeting hear about the Big Book.
How did this ever get started with just drunk-a-logs and why does it continue?
I don't have any answers for these questions. What I have come to realize though, is that the only thing I can do about it is to continue to pass on the message from the Big Book.
Harry
After I had been through the process I found out different. I would go on commitments and share about what A.A. has to offer for a new way to live a better life, the 12 Steps. One time when I did so, a member from a Big Book Step Study meeting came up to me and let me know that when somebody like me gets up to speak, it is the only time that the other people at the meeting hear about the Big Book.
How did this ever get started with just drunk-a-logs and why does it continue?
I don't have any answers for these questions. What I have come to realize though, is that the only thing I can do about it is to continue to pass on the message from the Big Book.
Harry
Harry I am sorry to hear this since I lived near you until recently, I respect your observation and thus your experience but have to say that is not mine.
It takes me about 35 mins to drive to your city and just in the cities between us there is about 15 of them with daily noon time meetings, just about every city in my and your county, about 70 or 80 cities, have nightly meetings along with a great number of morning ones.
Can you really say that where you live that most people are just giving drunkalouges in AA?
Just in the city of Lawrence there is a morning meeting, a 1030am daily meeting at the Riverside Church, a nooner at Bennington Street and host of nightly meetings. Now as a member of AA, SR, and well the human race I cannot tell you what to say but don't you think that a more accurate comment would be that when you go to AA what you have heard are alot of drunkalouges? Again, maybe semantics but part of my issue I guess is the blanket statements of what people, or percentages of people are doing in all of AA.
Brother, I know that you have a family issue that has changed your recovery program as far as meetings go and I respect you for taking care of family, so I am making this next comment really as an example. Keith has got me thinking about one point. As a member of AA it is my responsibility to tell you that in Newburyport at noon everyday there is certainly members talking about the steps. One lady, 32 years sober makes sure to note them daily:-) Also at 7am in Amesbury there is meeting where spirituallity is talked about ad nauseam:-) Trust me I know......
I guess I would like a definition of a drunkalouge. To me I need to hear what is was like and not just the recovery part. Identification with another drunk was and is so crucial for me in AA. Just talk about the steps without knowing how you drank is empty for me. Now I am not saying that is your stance, just saying that for me, a little history is crucial. And if someone can give that history with a bit of laughter it is the balls, I like shares like that, especially because I am guilty of taking myself too seriously. However, I am with you on the fact to just hear how someone drank is not very helpful. But with a caveat.
On the subject of helpful or useful.... I don't always know what is helpful to me at the moment. Like this useful button on SR, I usually click it because I like or agree with what someone had to say, my experience in AA has been that sometimes what I thought what was the least useful thing for me to hear has been the most important. I suck at judging was is good for me in the moment, that is why I keep an open mind, or try to. If I go into a meeting with a preconceived notion of what I should hear then alot of stuff is going to get missed. For this drunk, that could be fatal.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: far far from home
Posts: 373
And we also know, that in AA, once this has occurred (spiritual awakening as result of the Steps), we should try to carry the message of that spiritual awakening. We know these things. So why are we so scared to talk about them in an AA meeting? Why is that discussion so infuriating for some people?
And what I'm hearing from you Chops, is that the message is not infuriating. It's the perception that you are being dissed or put down that is infuriating.
And what I'm hearing from you Chops, is that the message is not infuriating. It's the perception that you are being dissed or put down that is infuriating.
Can we do that without diminishing the messages of others?
It is not actually the perception that I am being lumped into into that "90% who don't do the work" it is the fact that we are throwing this number based on personal observation around like it is fact. Furthermore, I feel a judgemental tone in many of the posts, I am the master of judging:-) and feel that I can recognize it. And when we are judging people and what they say in AA we are judging God. At least IMHO.
My issue is looking hard at why I am getting so fired up about it:-) and why I hoping to convince people what they are doing is wrong, but that is me, always trying to run the show.
Maybe something that these "judgemental thumpers" are saying is saving my life. I have to be open to that. But as far as changing the direction of meetings, or saving AA, or improving the percentages, meh, at least for this drunk it is not my job, I am not running the show. Like you, Harry and others have said I can just carry my message of what happened to me and what works for me.
I am a work in progress, recovered from a hopeless state of body and mind, but I have alot to learn, and I feel that everyone in AA has something to offer. Trying my best to stay out of the judging and categorizing game allows me to be open to a message that might save me.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,903
Originally Posted by Rusty Zipper
and isn't it our job,
and real purpose to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God,
and the people about us.
and real purpose to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God,
and the people about us.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by Chops
Can we do that without diminishing the messages of others?
I will, however, share my experience, even if it is very contradictory to what else is shared. Some people can perceive that as diminishing.
I know about getting fired up about it.
I started working with this new kid earlier this week. He's young, smart, been in a couple of rehabs, already lost a lot even for a young guy. He's never before had the surrender aspect of Step 1.
And he's got it now. We've sat down for a few hour or so sessions with the BB, talking about his experience and my own. And he's got it. And least as well as anyone I've seen.
So we're together yesterday, and he tells me he is at a meeting the night before, and he was sharing about that powerlessness, loss of choice idea in our BB. Then he tells me that 5 different people in the meeting gave him flak for it, and shared about how they make the choice to not drink, a day at a time.
Chops, I wanted to cry. I felt so heartsick and frustrated. Here is a guy who is one of us, can't stay sober for longer than a few months. And he's got the damn access key of surrender in his hand to this whole program. It's right from our book.
And he's told that he's wrong, and that he can just choose to not drink.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by uncle holmes
some stuff about person A, B, C, and D
I will say, sometimes that conference approved Daily Reflections has some pretty whacky stuff in it. But, so does a lot of other conference approved stuff. Look at how 'Living Sober' lines up with the BB. It's great advice and method for the non-alcoholic.
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
"A house divided against itself cannot stand."
I was at a workshop on unity recently. There was all this talk about working the Steps 'my way'. So I asked the question, that if the newcomer walks into the room, and here's about person A and B and C and D all working the Steps a different way, all doing different things to stay sober, what are they supposed to do with that?
Firestorm is talking about this problem right now.
I get you Rob, we are all in this together. But you know pg 17. That common problem does not hold us together as we are now joined. It's one element of the powerful cement that binds.
That's been my experience. The other ingredients are my common solution with others.
If we don't have that common solution, it's a weak cement.
My experience with common solution AA (everyone in the room following the same directions from the BB) is that people come in and get sober and stay sober and carry the message to the next guy. Just about a sponsorship generation added per year or two.
My experience with non-common solution (everybody working things 'my way') is birthday meetings with a list of people who nobody has seen for a year. Members of a group that nobody has seen for the past year. A lot of in and out. Passing parade of newcomers who can't seem to stick.
The last guy I know who preached in meetings that 'I work the Steps my way and it's working for me' just stole a bunch of money from Intergroup as he launched off on his still going drinking spree.
He's to blame, for sure. But AA members have a responsibility to carry the message. And when that responsibility is neglected, and the message is 'do whatever works for you' people don't recover.
It's not such a mysterious deal. Do what they did, get what they got. What they did is specifically and precisely laid out in the BB. Anything else is just someone's own arrogance thinking they know better than those directions that have served us well for 75 years.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by Mark75
My take on that is slightly different... Since I am christian, I will have to put it to you within that construct... Jesus was the only human being that was perfect in His love of God, His obedience to His will, and His faith... and that He was perfect in this regard probably had a little to do with being the son of God 
...
My best friend is not alcoholic... he was never at an AA meeting... We have this "progress not perfection" discussion regularly at our semi monthly breakfast... to be human is to have imperfect faith...
It's got everything to do with the challenge of living a spiritual life, regardless of whether you are alcoholic, working the 12 step program... or not.
Mark
...My best friend is not alcoholic... he was never at an AA meeting... We have this "progress not perfection" discussion regularly at our semi monthly breakfast... to be human is to have imperfect faith...
It's got everything to do with the challenge of living a spiritual life, regardless of whether you are alcoholic, working the 12 step program... or not.
Mark
So I think the expression "progress not perfection" is a statement of the obvious, a truism, that justifies nothing. It is IMO often used as an excuse for falling short.
blessings
zbear
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by Harry01854
Why it happens, I don't know. Here where I live, most people will get up at the podium and share their drunk-a-log. Destruction, jailtime and the likes. Their final point being that they got to A.A. and now they haven't had a drink for xxxx amount of time. Very rarely do I hear about the 12 Steps, spiritual awakening or living a better life. Some like to get up there and make a comedy hour of it, like everytime they drank it became a comedy show. Other times they get up there and share their sob stories and start crying. And I have to admit, before I started hearing a few people share about a spiritual program, the 12 Steps and a life of freedom, I too shared the same way. Thought that was suppose to be the way it was.
After I had been through the process I found out different. I would go on commitments and share about what A.A. has to offer for a new way to live a better life, the 12 Steps. One time when I did so, a member from a Big Book Step Study meeting came up to me and let me know that when somebody like me gets up to speak, it is the only time that the other people at the meeting hear about the Big Book.
How did this ever get started with just drunk-a-logs and why does it continue?
I don't have any answers for these questions. What I have come to realize though, is that the only thing I can do about it is to continue to pass on the message from the Big Book.
Harry
After I had been through the process I found out different. I would go on commitments and share about what A.A. has to offer for a new way to live a better life, the 12 Steps. One time when I did so, a member from a Big Book Step Study meeting came up to me and let me know that when somebody like me gets up to speak, it is the only time that the other people at the meeting hear about the Big Book.
How did this ever get started with just drunk-a-logs and why does it continue?
I don't have any answers for these questions. What I have come to realize though, is that the only thing I can do about it is to continue to pass on the message from the Big Book.
Harry
I often begin speaking by asking if there's anyone out there who DOESN'T know how to screw up their life by drinking and drugging? Generally, I don't see any hands raised, so I mention that I'll spend more time on how I've stayed sober than on how I got drunk. Just enough drunkalogue for others to be able to identify with powerlessness, unmanageability and insanity.
blessings
zbear
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by Chops
Harry I am sorry to hear this since I lived near you until recently, I respect your observation and thus your experience but have to say that is not mine.
It takes me about 35 mins to drive to your city and just in the cities between us there is about 15 of them with daily noon time meetings, just about every city in my and your county, about 70 or 80 cities, have nightly meetings along with a great number of morning ones.
Can you really say that where you live that most people are just giving drunkalouges in AA?
Just in the city of Lawrence there is a morning meeting, a 1030am daily meeting at the Riverside Church, a nooner at Bennington Street and host of nightly meetings. Now as a member of AA, SR, and well the human race I cannot tell you what to say but don't you think that a more accurate comment would be that when you go to AA what you have heard are alot of drunkalouges? Again, maybe semantics but part of my issue I guess is the blanket statements of what people, or percentages of people are doing in all of AA.
Brother, I know that you have a family issue that has changed your recovery program as far as meetings go and I respect you for taking care of family, so I am making this next comment really as an example. Keith has got me thinking about one point. As a member of AA it is my responsibility to tell you that in Newburyport at noon everyday there is certainly members talking about the steps. One lady, 32 years sober makes sure to note them daily:-) Also at 7am in Amesbury there is meeting where spirituallity is talked about ad nauseam:-) Trust me I know......
I guess I would like a definition of a drunkalouge. To me I need to hear what is was like and not just the recovery part. Identification with another drunk was and is so crucial for me in AA. Just talk about the steps without knowing how you drank is empty for me. Now I am not saying that is your stance, just saying that for me, a little history is crucial. And if someone can give that history with a bit of laughter it is the balls, I like shares like that, especially because I am guilty of taking myself too seriously. However, I am with you on the fact to just hear how someone drank is not very helpful. But with a caveat.
On the subject of helpful or useful.... I don't always know what is helpful to me at the moment. Like this useful button on SR, I usually click it because I like or agree with what someone had to say, my experience in AA has been that sometimes what I thought what was the least useful thing for me to hear has been the most important. I suck at judging was is good for me in the moment, that is why I keep an open mind, or try to. If I go into a meeting with a preconceived notion of what I should hear then alot of stuff is going to get missed. For this drunk, that could be fatal.
It takes me about 35 mins to drive to your city and just in the cities between us there is about 15 of them with daily noon time meetings, just about every city in my and your county, about 70 or 80 cities, have nightly meetings along with a great number of morning ones.
Can you really say that where you live that most people are just giving drunkalouges in AA?
Just in the city of Lawrence there is a morning meeting, a 1030am daily meeting at the Riverside Church, a nooner at Bennington Street and host of nightly meetings. Now as a member of AA, SR, and well the human race I cannot tell you what to say but don't you think that a more accurate comment would be that when you go to AA what you have heard are alot of drunkalouges? Again, maybe semantics but part of my issue I guess is the blanket statements of what people, or percentages of people are doing in all of AA.
Brother, I know that you have a family issue that has changed your recovery program as far as meetings go and I respect you for taking care of family, so I am making this next comment really as an example. Keith has got me thinking about one point. As a member of AA it is my responsibility to tell you that in Newburyport at noon everyday there is certainly members talking about the steps. One lady, 32 years sober makes sure to note them daily:-) Also at 7am in Amesbury there is meeting where spirituallity is talked about ad nauseam:-) Trust me I know......
I guess I would like a definition of a drunkalouge. To me I need to hear what is was like and not just the recovery part. Identification with another drunk was and is so crucial for me in AA. Just talk about the steps without knowing how you drank is empty for me. Now I am not saying that is your stance, just saying that for me, a little history is crucial. And if someone can give that history with a bit of laughter it is the balls, I like shares like that, especially because I am guilty of taking myself too seriously. However, I am with you on the fact to just hear how someone drank is not very helpful. But with a caveat.
On the subject of helpful or useful.... I don't always know what is helpful to me at the moment. Like this useful button on SR, I usually click it because I like or agree with what someone had to say, my experience in AA has been that sometimes what I thought what was the least useful thing for me to hear has been the most important. I suck at judging was is good for me in the moment, that is why I keep an open mind, or try to. If I go into a meeting with a preconceived notion of what I should hear then alot of stuff is going to get missed. For this drunk, that could be fatal.
I'd like to invite you (and any others in the area) to my home group which meets at 7 am six mornings a week in Lynn. It is round robin meeting and I've yet to find a better way to start my day. And the meeting after the meeting is pretty good as well.<G>
blessings
zbear
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by keithj
Yes, Chops, I think we can. This forum is a little different for me, in that we can have this conversation. It plays out well and is helpful to me, and I hope to others. Very rarely would I comment towards someone else's sharing in an open meeting.
I will, however, share my experience, even if it is very contradictory to what else is shared. Some people can perceive that as diminishing.
I know about getting fired up about it.
I started working with this new kid earlier this week. He's young, smart, been in a couple of rehabs, already lost a lot even for a young guy. He's never before had the surrender aspect of Step 1.
And he's got it now. We've sat down for a few hour or so sessions with the BB, talking about his experience and my own. And he's got it. And least as well as anyone I've seen.
So we're together yesterday, and he tells me he is at a meeting the night before, and he was sharing about that powerlessness, loss of choice idea in our BB. Then he tells me that 5 different people in the meeting gave him flak for it, and shared about how they make the choice to not drink, a day at a time.
Chops, I wanted to cry. I felt so heartsick and frustrated. Here is a guy who is one of us, can't stay sober for longer than a few months. And he's got the damn access key of surrender in his hand to this whole program. It's right from our book.
And he's told that he's wrong, and that he can just choose to not drink.
I will, however, share my experience, even if it is very contradictory to what else is shared. Some people can perceive that as diminishing.
I know about getting fired up about it.
I started working with this new kid earlier this week. He's young, smart, been in a couple of rehabs, already lost a lot even for a young guy. He's never before had the surrender aspect of Step 1.
And he's got it now. We've sat down for a few hour or so sessions with the BB, talking about his experience and my own. And he's got it. And least as well as anyone I've seen.
So we're together yesterday, and he tells me he is at a meeting the night before, and he was sharing about that powerlessness, loss of choice idea in our BB. Then he tells me that 5 different people in the meeting gave him flak for it, and shared about how they make the choice to not drink, a day at a time.
Chops, I wanted to cry. I felt so heartsick and frustrated. Here is a guy who is one of us, can't stay sober for longer than a few months. And he's got the damn access key of surrender in his hand to this whole program. It's right from our book.
And he's told that he's wrong, and that he can just choose to not drink.
How well did THAT work???? <G>
blessings
zbear
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Back when the BB was written, we didn't have all these "self-help" books and gurus. AA was probably the first group to suggest that it is possible to recover from self-defeating behaviors without spending tons of money on psychotherapy. All of a sudden, when AA's successes became known to the general public, everyone and his brother started up all these self-help "programs."
Somehow, the answer to everything became dealing with our "low self-esteem". And the answer to THAT became building your self-esteem by making excuses for it (being victimized one way or another) and being proud of yourself no matter how "dysfunctional" your life continues to be, and every tiny improvement is cause for celebration. And if you continue to feel bad about your life, it's always someone else's fault.
Now, I don't minimize the fact that some people truly are victimized through severe abuse of one kind or another--I see it every day in my work. But everyone who had a difficult childhood or less-than-perfect parenting isn't (IMO) therefore "suffering" from low self-esteem causing all of his or her problems.
But that mind-set, with which we are constantly bombarded in our society today, is what is leaking into the rooms. So to admit you are "powerless" over alcohol would be somehow damaging to your "self-esteem". The people who "correct" others about their ability to choose whether to pick up a drink mistakenly think that the powerlessness and humility actually espoused in the BB is a blow to their self-esteem that they mistakenly think is the root of their problem.
The people I know who have recovered by working the Steps have true self-esteem, in that they consider themselves people of value. What could be better for one's sense of self than to right the wrongs you have done and start over with a clean slate and a plan for living that gets you off the hamster wheel of continuing to do the same wrong things over and over?
LOL, I think if I were writing the Twelve Steps today, I might add a Step i (as in a foreword): We dismissed from our minds everything we ever saw on Oprah or Dr. Phil as having any applicability to our drinking problem.
Somehow, the answer to everything became dealing with our "low self-esteem". And the answer to THAT became building your self-esteem by making excuses for it (being victimized one way or another) and being proud of yourself no matter how "dysfunctional" your life continues to be, and every tiny improvement is cause for celebration. And if you continue to feel bad about your life, it's always someone else's fault.
Now, I don't minimize the fact that some people truly are victimized through severe abuse of one kind or another--I see it every day in my work. But everyone who had a difficult childhood or less-than-perfect parenting isn't (IMO) therefore "suffering" from low self-esteem causing all of his or her problems.
But that mind-set, with which we are constantly bombarded in our society today, is what is leaking into the rooms. So to admit you are "powerless" over alcohol would be somehow damaging to your "self-esteem". The people who "correct" others about their ability to choose whether to pick up a drink mistakenly think that the powerlessness and humility actually espoused in the BB is a blow to their self-esteem that they mistakenly think is the root of their problem.
The people I know who have recovered by working the Steps have true self-esteem, in that they consider themselves people of value. What could be better for one's sense of self than to right the wrongs you have done and start over with a clean slate and a plan for living that gets you off the hamster wheel of continuing to do the same wrong things over and over?
LOL, I think if I were writing the Twelve Steps today, I might add a Step i (as in a foreword): We dismissed from our minds everything we ever saw on Oprah or Dr. Phil as having any applicability to our drinking problem.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
As a christian, in my belief of christianity, Jesus is perfect in His relationship with God. He was human, so by definition, He was imperfect in all other ways. That's all I am saying. In my belief of christianity, Jesus is the example of "perfection" in His spirituality. In my belief and understanding of christianity, God sent His son for that purpose... which, and words fail me because I am not a theologian, is related to Jesus' roll as savior... But that's digressing and not important, especially since this thread is not about religion or theology.
What is relevant to the discussion, I think, is this concept of progress not perfection... and I think applies absolutely... I think the Oxford group was christian?? So as I see it, in tracing this concept back to the oxford group... well, hopefully I made my point.
But what of the christian, or the AA member, who is not perfect in his program or faith? As you say "progress not perfection" is obvious, a truism... absolutely... But is it always used an excuse? Perhaps for the one who struggles, as do I, in all things faith based, ... making progress is all I can expect? And on many days, progress is good enough.
Good stuff zbear... I enjoy your perspectives and posts very much.
Mark
What is relevant to the discussion, I think, is this concept of progress not perfection... and I think applies absolutely... I think the Oxford group was christian?? So as I see it, in tracing this concept back to the oxford group... well, hopefully I made my point.
But what of the christian, or the AA member, who is not perfect in his program or faith? As you say "progress not perfection" is obvious, a truism... absolutely... But is it always used an excuse? Perhaps for the one who struggles, as do I, in all things faith based, ... making progress is all I can expect? And on many days, progress is good enough.
Good stuff zbear... I enjoy your perspectives and posts very much.
Mark
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by keithj
I don't have a problem with other literature. Even the 12&12 tells us in the forward that it does not contain the directions for taking the Steps. It's not intended to be a replacement.
I will say, sometimes that conference approved Daily Reflections has some pretty whacky stuff in it. But, so does a lot of other conference approved stuff. Look at how 'Living Sober' lines up with the BB. It's great advice and method for the non-alcoholic.
That's why this conversation falls right out of Tradition 1 discussion.
I was at a workshop on unity recently. There was all this talk about working the Steps 'my way'. So I asked the question, that if the newcomer walks into the room, and here's about person A and B and C and D all working the Steps a different way, all doing different things to stay sober, what are they supposed to do with that?
Firestorm is talking about this problem right now.
I get you Rob, we are all in this together. But you know pg 17. That common problem does not hold us together as we are now joined. It's one element of the powerful cement that binds.
That's been my experience. The other ingredients are my common solution with others.
If we don't have that common solution, it's a weak cement.
My experience with common solution AA (everyone in the room following the same directions from the BB) is that people come in and get sober and stay sober and carry the message to the next guy. Just about a sponsorship generation added per year or two.
My experience with non-common solution (everybody working things 'my way') is birthday meetings with a list of people who nobody has seen for a year. Members of a group that nobody has seen for the past year. A lot of in and out. Passing parade of newcomers who can't seem to stick.
The last guy I know who preached in meetings that 'I work the Steps my way and it's working for me' just stole a bunch of money from Intergroup as he launched off on his still going drinking spree.
He's to blame, for sure. But AA members have a responsibility to carry the message. And when that responsibility is neglected, and the message is 'do whatever works for you' people don't recover.
It's not such a mysterious deal. Do what they did, get what they got. What they did is specifically and precisely laid out in the BB. Anything else is just someone's own arrogance thinking they know better than those directions that have served us well for 75 years.
I will say, sometimes that conference approved Daily Reflections has some pretty whacky stuff in it. But, so does a lot of other conference approved stuff. Look at how 'Living Sober' lines up with the BB. It's great advice and method for the non-alcoholic.
That's why this conversation falls right out of Tradition 1 discussion.
I was at a workshop on unity recently. There was all this talk about working the Steps 'my way'. So I asked the question, that if the newcomer walks into the room, and here's about person A and B and C and D all working the Steps a different way, all doing different things to stay sober, what are they supposed to do with that?
Firestorm is talking about this problem right now.
I get you Rob, we are all in this together. But you know pg 17. That common problem does not hold us together as we are now joined. It's one element of the powerful cement that binds.
That's been my experience. The other ingredients are my common solution with others.
If we don't have that common solution, it's a weak cement.
My experience with common solution AA (everyone in the room following the same directions from the BB) is that people come in and get sober and stay sober and carry the message to the next guy. Just about a sponsorship generation added per year or two.
My experience with non-common solution (everybody working things 'my way') is birthday meetings with a list of people who nobody has seen for a year. Members of a group that nobody has seen for the past year. A lot of in and out. Passing parade of newcomers who can't seem to stick.
The last guy I know who preached in meetings that 'I work the Steps my way and it's working for me' just stole a bunch of money from Intergroup as he launched off on his still going drinking spree.
He's to blame, for sure. But AA members have a responsibility to carry the message. And when that responsibility is neglected, and the message is 'do whatever works for you' people don't recover.
It's not such a mysterious deal. Do what they did, get what they got. What they did is specifically and precisely laid out in the BB. Anything else is just someone's own arrogance thinking they know better than those directions that have served us well for 75 years.
The fellowship of AA was instrumental in giving me the love and support, not to mention sponsorship, that I need to do the AA program (the steps) as it is explicitly layed out. I went to lots of meetings, and still enjoy going. AA is not a no drinking program. It is a "design for living" program that works lots better when I don't drink.
Whenever I hear someone badmouthing a speaker for some sort of lack of integrity hypocricy or dishonesty, etc., I sometimes ask them how that affects THEIR sobriety. Frankly, your "program" is none of my business. My business is exactly what AA says it is....practicing the principles in all my affairs and carrying the message. I "practice Steps 10-12 in my daily life, but I don't do all the Steps over and over, although I used to do a new fourth step once a year. I live the steps by practicing the principles on which they're based....in ALL my affairs. I work at not making exceptions or excuses. One of the things I'm forced to practice in this spiritual discipline is forgiveness....of myself whenever I fall short. And the perseverance to never give up, never lose my "teachability."
I don't care what you read or how many meetings you go to or, really, whether or not you drink. That's between you, your HP and perhaps your sponsor (or your probation officer<G>). All I have is my own experience, strength and hope to offer up, and what anyone does or doesn't do with it is NONE OF MY BUSINESS. It's like the story of when Bill W. was whining to Lois about having never succeeded with his first 75 "prospects," and she pointed out that he did indeed succeed....with himself. I succeed by sharing what is essentially my love with others. It is not directive or demandiing, nor is it judgmental.
You are free to recovery however you may. My only real concern is that I'm convinced that self honesty is essential to recovery, and if I'm only "pretending" to follow the program of AA, I'm lying to myself. My drinking life was full of self deception. In sobriety I need to be rigorously honest. I'm either doing the AA program or I'm not....it's pretty black and white IMO. I can (and many do) be a member of AA without doing the program...simply by having a desire to stop drinking. That doesn't IMO translate into recovery though. As someone mentioned, the only result AA mentions in its twelve step program is a spiritual awakening. Nothing more, nothing less. Having said that, it's not either up to me to decide when it's time for YOU to do the steps. that's YOUR business.
It's not my job to tell anyone how to stay sober, unless they have asked me...and then all I have is how I managed to do it. And the only folks I feel entitled to "advise or direct" are those who have asked me to sponsor them (or otherwise advise or direct them). And finally,,,,, when someone asks me "how it works," I usually say "just fine." AA does work when I do the AA program instead of the zenbear program.
IMO, everyone has a HP....and I'm not it.
blessings
zenbear
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by keithj
So we're together yesterday, and he tells me he is at a meeting the night before, and he was sharing about that powerlessness, loss of choice idea in our BB. Then he tells me that 5 different people in the meeting gave him flak for it, and shared about how they make the choice to not drink, a day at a time.
Chops, I wanted to cry. I felt so heartsick and frustrated. Here is a guy who is one of us, can't stay sober for longer than a few months. And he's got the damn access key of surrender in his hand to this whole program. It's right from our book.
And he's told that he's wrong, and that he can just choose to not drink.
Chops, I wanted to cry. I felt so heartsick and frustrated. Here is a guy who is one of us, can't stay sober for longer than a few months. And he's got the damn access key of surrender in his hand to this whole program. It's right from our book.
And he's told that he's wrong, and that he can just choose to not drink.
Originally Posted by keithj
I get you Rob, we are all in this together. But you know pg 17. That common problem does not hold us together as we are now joined. It's one element of the powerful cement that binds.
Originally Posted by keithj
The last guy I know who preached in meetings that 'I work the Steps my way and it's working for me' just stole a bunch of money from Intergroup as he launched off on his still going drinking spree.
He's to blame, for sure. But AA members have a responsibility to carry the message. And when that responsibility is neglected, and the message is 'do whatever works for you' people don't recover.
It's not such a mysterious deal. Do what they did, get what they got. What they did is specifically and precisely laid out in the BB. Anything else is just someone's own arrogance thinking they know better than those directions that have served us well for 75 years.
He's to blame, for sure. But AA members have a responsibility to carry the message. And when that responsibility is neglected, and the message is 'do whatever works for you' people don't recover.
It's not such a mysterious deal. Do what they did, get what they got. What they did is specifically and precisely laid out in the BB. Anything else is just someone's own arrogance thinking they know better than those directions that have served us well for 75 years.
In the above quotes for sure I understand the message of pg17 & pg18. If you think I don’t, it speaks to how you see me, and not to my appreciation of the BB. You have what eyes you have, Keith. Like you, I didn’t write the BB, I just follow it as best I can. FWIW, I do okay. I think you do too, so I’m not really interested in getting the speck out of your eye over any of our shares here on SR. I’m much more interested in keeping the logs out of mine own eyes.
Is okay enough? Well, I’m not in a ditch drunk today and I was before. Dead drunk. I’m not playing with knives and shotguns and I was before. I’m not in fist fights with other drunks over who the hell cares what anymore. I’m not sitting in a jail cell anymore. I’m not in a mental institution anymore. I’m not in a hospital ward anymore. I’m not stealing anymore. I am not using girls (and guys) anymore. I’m not wrecking families and friends anymore. I’m not running (with) gangs anymore. And what really changed? I stopped drinking, got sober, got to changing the underlying problems with myself, got spiritual, got my alcoholism illness arrested, got to changing my life, and here I am today sharing with you all good people. Awesome.
So yeah, I’m doing okay. And I still haven’t shared about all the good things going on with me today. My cup is running over, brother. It all happened for me, it all worked out: I’m living the good life! Jails, institutions and death are history and inventory for me now. My future is bright. So yeah, I understand alcoholism, and I understand sobriety and spiritual living. I’m doing okay. Do I have a message? Yup, I do.
Like I said, I blame alcoholism for the troubles of AA and for members not getting sober and staying happily sober. Others are free to hold members accountable for the misfortunes of AA and the difficulties members have with drinking and not doing the program. I will never sign on to that other way of understanding of blame and guilt. I do hold myself, AA, our fellowship, and our own understanding of God responsible to work out the problems and the solutions we all face as a Society. Responsibility and blame are of course different experiences.
I don’t hold the alcoholic who stole the intergroup cash to blame. His alcoholism was not arrested. Alcoholics steal. It happens. Live with it and move on with a spiritual understanding of what really happened. Same with the young guy who had his early fragile understandings challenged by ignorant arrogant members of what is and what is not recovery. Life has to offer what it does. Why did the kid take a beating? I’m not sure, but I do know the answer is found in spirituality and not in blaming the ignorant for their sorry lives.
Hey, let’s agree to disagree on this one as well, Keith. I’m too far down the road to change my spots, you know? My experience is that this way I’m living works really well, and it’s what I got to offer others. I can’t give what I don’t have, and I don’t have your understanding of what troubles AA and what stops members from getting sober spiritual happy lives.
I’ve no reason to want you to change your message. You're not any problem for me. You’re not why AA is having troubles. Do I think you have a message for me? Yes, but I’m not just listening to you, my friend. We are not alone in these experiences. It’s a busy life, you know?
With friendship and fellowship in mind,
Robby
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