keithj

Thanks, Chops. Yours is an articulate and well reasoned post.

I can start with saying that I have no qualification, or business, in judging a spiritual awakening in someone else. I wouldn't know where to begin. The only thing that might (and I mean might) be any of my business is the message carried in AA. And it's only my message I need have any concern with. I don't want to get into any discussion about who has had a spiritual awakening.

The discussion we are having, I think, is about the discomfort you and I both feel when someone shares something we don't like in a meeting or on an internet forum. And we both know the answer to that discomfort is found within ourselves. Put simply, we both grind over stuff we hear.

The only thing we're really talking about is what is acceptable discussion in an AA meeting. It's really the only observable thing we've got. I totally agree that some folks talk a good game, and live a different one. Likewise, some folks live a great game, and say little about it. But we both have ears, and can hear what is being shared in a meeting.

Let's look at where we can agree.

I think that there is no way someone who has not taken the 12 Steps and had a spiritual awakening as the result, can sponsor someone else to do the same. It's not that they are not allowed to or forbidden from it. It's just going to be real difficult for someone to share experience with something they have never done themselves.

Whether it's 1% or 99% percent, I hope we can start with the idea that some members of AA have not done AA's program of recovery, and therefore have little business trying to guide another through AA's program of recovery. That, to me, is the pinnacle of arrogance.

Now that's a tough one. Many people have found a spiritual life that is effective in removing the mental obsession to drink, or they have some other means of staying sober. Lifering, SMART, counseling, any number of things can be effective. But none of those things are the AA program of recovery.

My response to this is, if someone has found a great way of having a spiritual awakening that keeps them sober, great. Please write it down and start your own recovery program. The reason I say this is directly in accordance with Tradition 1. Unity from page 17. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree.

If you don't agree with that way out, or have found a different way, fantastic. But AA is about this one way that we all agree on. We agree on it because it has worked for us.

So this is the fundamental communication idea I was bringing up. What I said was, that when I had a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps, service and sponsorship took on new meaning. I didn't say anything about you. But what you heard, obviously, was that because you don't share my experience with it, you must be a phony. But I don't think I said that. And if I did, I was wrong to say it.

I would ask, why don't you know this? I'll hazard a guess that it's because nobody is talking about it. And here is where I shake my head in frustration.

The final end result of AA's program of recovery is to have a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps. That's what keeps AA members sober. And you are in a room full of people, and nobody mentions having had a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps. How can we possibly call that AA? It's the entire purpose for which we are gathered together. To share with another alcoholic how we have recovered, so that they can recover as well. And nobody mentions how they have recovered?

The BB does say at certain times. How will I know when those times are occurring? Is this one of those times when I have a mental defense, or is this one of those times, like Jim and Fred, when I'm just screwed?

We can debate that until the cows come home. But really, and this came up in another thread, it's tough to debate it when we derive such a different meaning from the same words. I look at the context and the spirit of the BB, as well as the specific words. Was the intent of those words to mean that I could effectively talk myself out of having a drink? Or was the intent of those words to inform me that I will not be able to recall with sufficient force the suffering and humiliation of even a week or month ago? I think the intent is to inform me that I am without defense. That I better have defense from a higher power, or I am going to drunk just like Jim and Fred did.

Chops, I can go over to the Newcomers forum and read the results of real alcoholics trying to think through the drink. They are getting drunk on a daily basis.




This same idea came up a number of times in your post. I just won't categorize people based on something like that. I don't know. All I can go by is the message somebody is carrying in the meetings.

Just like membership in AA, you've done the deal (taken the Steps and had an awakening) if you say you have. You may have done them differently than I have, and you may have different results, but I'm not going to get into any debates on 'quality' of spirituality.

That 'progress not perfection' idea is probably where this discussion really starts. It's a phrase I hear often used to justify working 'their program' instead of the AA program. Or to justify some bad action. It's just a guess, but I'd bet that the phrase got written in response to the Oxford Group's 4 Absolutes. Bill W. knew that alkies would reject the idea of absolute adherence to anything.

I am not perfectly honest, perfectly selfless, perfectly pure, or perfectly loving. But, by living by the principles of AA, I, like you, am better than I have ever been in all those areas. That phrase is not an excuse though, to justify doing whatever I want in AA.

Much like the apologetic, 'we know only a little and more will be revealed'. Well sure, that's true. But let's take advantage of the little bit we do know at the moment. And what we do know is that the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous will lead to a spiritual awakening and a life beyond your expectations, not to mention sobriety.

And we also know, that in AA, once this has occurred (spiritual awakening as result of the Steps), we should try to carry the message of that spiritual awakening. We know these things. So why are we so scared to talk about them in an AA meeting? Why is that discussion so infuriating for some people?

And what I'm hearing from you Chops, is that the message is not infuriating. It's the perception that you are being dissed or put down that is infuriating.

Whew, too many words here. I don't mean to not address the rest of it, but I'll let it simmer for a bit.