Me, him and NA - The Love Triangle
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Me, him and NA - The Love Triangle
I could use some help here...
He's been clean 4 years...through the help of NA. Our relationship moved a little faster than my relationships normally do, although he still has his own place he basically lives with me...make that lived until Sunday night.
Throughout the relationship, whenever we had a disagreement and I didn't deal with it as efficiently as he did, I would hear, "well, you don't have a program to deal with things like I do."
Or after he left Sunday night - after picking a fight and packing his things out of the blue - he called on Monday and told me he had done some inventorying, talked to his sponsor and realized that he needed to apologize for picking the fight intentionally to have a reason to leave, and that we had more to talk about face to face, but that he wasn't ready yet, he still had some more step work to do and needed to spend some time with some other addicts and talk to his sponsor.
I never knew him as an addict, nor have I ever known anyone in active addiction that I know of, but I worked very hard to understand all of the steps and the literature. I was reading the basic text and I read the Just for Today everyday. But now I have a few questions...
1. Can someone who has never been an addict REALLY understand/be in a relationship with an addict?
2. If we work this out and I ever really find out why he bailed, am I having a relationship with him, am I having a relationship with him and NA?
I'm open to any and all help here...I was trying but I never felt like I understood.
He's been clean 4 years...through the help of NA. Our relationship moved a little faster than my relationships normally do, although he still has his own place he basically lives with me...make that lived until Sunday night.
Throughout the relationship, whenever we had a disagreement and I didn't deal with it as efficiently as he did, I would hear, "well, you don't have a program to deal with things like I do."
Or after he left Sunday night - after picking a fight and packing his things out of the blue - he called on Monday and told me he had done some inventorying, talked to his sponsor and realized that he needed to apologize for picking the fight intentionally to have a reason to leave, and that we had more to talk about face to face, but that he wasn't ready yet, he still had some more step work to do and needed to spend some time with some other addicts and talk to his sponsor.
I never knew him as an addict, nor have I ever known anyone in active addiction that I know of, but I worked very hard to understand all of the steps and the literature. I was reading the basic text and I read the Just for Today everyday. But now I have a few questions...
1. Can someone who has never been an addict REALLY understand/be in a relationship with an addict?
2. If we work this out and I ever really find out why he bailed, am I having a relationship with him, am I having a relationship with him and NA?
I'm open to any and all help here...I was trying but I never felt like I understood.
Last edited by kyteach74; 03-08-2008 at 08:39 AM. Reason: Edited to add: I'm asking this in this forum because I don't think families and friends can help me here...I need NA input
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
My husband and I are both in recovery. We didn't know each other in active addiction, though we have shared a lot with each other and understand the particular character defects under the surface that kept us from honest and open relationships.
We use the steps in our relationship with each other and with the world in general. It's second nature now, and although we don't specify to each other what step we're working, it's pretty clear to each of us when the other is taking a personal inventory or making an amends. I'm sure it's confusing for you that your boyfriend is so program-specific when he speaks to you. Can you understand the process? I think so.
Think of steps four through seven as a means of spiritual cleansing. We're looking for guidance towards "right" behavior that supports the values we've developed, and we can only do that by honestly looking at our own part in any difficulties. When we realize we've harmed someone else, it's not enough to just know that. We must try to make it right. Lots of other people who aren't addicts live in this manner without ever needing a structured framework to examine their emotions/thoughts/actions. We do. We're not real smart when it comes to seeing selfishness and self-centeredness.
The best way for you to understand our program is to adopt one for yourself, but I urge you -- do it for you and your own interactions with the world, not merely because you want to mend your relationship and be who he needs for you to be. If you can see that this is a desirable way of living and if you can see that his status as an addict, whether you lived through the active addiction or not, has had an effect on you, the Naranon groups are open to you. In absence of Naranon, many go to Al-anon.
It's not unheard of for some to use a program to avoid involvement in the "normie" world, though I'm not saying that your boyfriend is doing this. I have heard folks say that they cannot understand or be understood by someone who's not "program." In those cases, it's my opinion that they do, in fact, have a lot of step work to do -- because the whole purpose of having a program is to make us fit to carry out out HP's will in all our affairs, not just those within our own recovery community.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
We use the steps in our relationship with each other and with the world in general. It's second nature now, and although we don't specify to each other what step we're working, it's pretty clear to each of us when the other is taking a personal inventory or making an amends. I'm sure it's confusing for you that your boyfriend is so program-specific when he speaks to you. Can you understand the process? I think so.
Think of steps four through seven as a means of spiritual cleansing. We're looking for guidance towards "right" behavior that supports the values we've developed, and we can only do that by honestly looking at our own part in any difficulties. When we realize we've harmed someone else, it's not enough to just know that. We must try to make it right. Lots of other people who aren't addicts live in this manner without ever needing a structured framework to examine their emotions/thoughts/actions. We do. We're not real smart when it comes to seeing selfishness and self-centeredness.
The best way for you to understand our program is to adopt one for yourself, but I urge you -- do it for you and your own interactions with the world, not merely because you want to mend your relationship and be who he needs for you to be. If you can see that this is a desirable way of living and if you can see that his status as an addict, whether you lived through the active addiction or not, has had an effect on you, the Naranon groups are open to you. In absence of Naranon, many go to Al-anon.
It's not unheard of for some to use a program to avoid involvement in the "normie" world, though I'm not saying that your boyfriend is doing this. I have heard folks say that they cannot understand or be understood by someone who's not "program." In those cases, it's my opinion that they do, in fact, have a lot of step work to do -- because the whole purpose of having a program is to make us fit to carry out out HP's will in all our affairs, not just those within our own recovery community.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
First of all, it sounds like he's very sincere in his recovery, and he acknowledged and apologized for his behavior in regards to the fight. That's good maturity in the program.
Secondly, I have been on both sides of the fence, as a recovering addict/alcoholic and the loved one of an addict/alcoholic (ex-husband and my 30 year old daughter).
Is there Naranon in your area? Even though he's a clean addict, it could definitely help you to find your own program, so to speak of. I apply the 12 steps to all areas of my life, including parenting, relationships, and employment. They teach me a better way to handle things.
Is it possible to have a relationship with an addict in recovery if you're not one? Yes
As far as the triangle with you, him, and NA, recovery has to be first and foremost on an addict's list or he/she is doomed to relapse eventually.
It's not a competition between you and NA. Again, Naranon could be a good source of support for you
Secondly, I have been on both sides of the fence, as a recovering addict/alcoholic and the loved one of an addict/alcoholic (ex-husband and my 30 year old daughter).
Is there Naranon in your area? Even though he's a clean addict, it could definitely help you to find your own program, so to speak of. I apply the 12 steps to all areas of my life, including parenting, relationships, and employment. They teach me a better way to handle things.
Is it possible to have a relationship with an addict in recovery if you're not one? Yes
As far as the triangle with you, him, and NA, recovery has to be first and foremost on an addict's list or he/she is doomed to relapse eventually.
It's not a competition between you and NA. Again, Naranon could be a good source of support for you
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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I guess I just wondered if I wasn't "dramatic" enough for him - even though that's what he told me he wanted, that he was ready for peace in his life. It seemed like when things were calm, he created little bits of drama, little bickering quarrels...and when things were on track to be almost "suburban" in nature, he bailed, as Sugah said, submerging himself into the program.
He finished his step work while we were together...two weeks ago actually...another one of those times when I didn't know what to say or do, when I felt really left out.
As far as Naranon, when you read the questions for whether or not you need a Naranon group, I don't feel like I qualify. I honestly can't answer yes to 4 of those questions...I know I wouldn't be turned away, but I feel like the people who can answer yes to those questions deserve the time at those meetings, my problem seems mundane compared to those questions/answers.
He finished his step work while we were together...two weeks ago actually...another one of those times when I didn't know what to say or do, when I felt really left out.
As far as Naranon, when you read the questions for whether or not you need a Naranon group, I don't feel like I qualify. I honestly can't answer yes to 4 of those questions...I know I wouldn't be turned away, but I feel like the people who can answer yes to those questions deserve the time at those meetings, my problem seems mundane compared to those questions/answers.
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
You said, kyteach, that he just "finished" his step work two weeks ago (btw, it's never finished -- each step, as taken, becomes part of daily recovery for someone who desires real and lasting change). It's difficult to quantify recovery, and thinking in terms of the years he's been clean is misleading because of this.
That it took him four years to take all 12 steps says, to me, that he's still very green as far as recovery goes. I know people who've taken a lot longer and ones who've gone through all the steps (the first time through, anyway) in a matter of just a couple of months. It took me eight months, working every week with my sponsor. The steps are in order for a reason, and someone still on 3 can't effectively jump ahead to 11 as the mood suits them. So...if he's committed, and if he was rigorously honest in step four and worked 8 & 9 with his whole heart, he's on the road to some real changes. He might not seem like the same person a year from now.
Not that that does you any good. That's all things he has to decide and do. I do agree that his recovery must come first if he's any kind of addict like I am. I also believe that the program I use in my daily life requires that I not force my views/beliefs/way of life on anyone else -- not that you said he has, though using his program as a way of creating chaos and interest is something I'd hope he'll outgrow. I'm sure that sounds judgmental, and it is a generalization that has come from working with women (and knowing myself), the addiction to chaos and wanting something always to be going on. It may or may not apply to him, and only he can make that determination, if he's at the point where he can be rigorously honest with himself (something really helped along by the 11th step).
I'm not sure if the link is permitted here, but if you google, "Rabbi Abraham Twerski, AA, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette," you'll find an article that I found to be very helpful. Rabbi Twerski has practiced the twelve steps for a good number of years without having any addictions issues himself -- none that would qualify him for membership based upon accepted criteria, anyway.
Don't ever think you're not deserving of time, kyteach. We all need time from other human beings to learn how to be better human beings.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
That it took him four years to take all 12 steps says, to me, that he's still very green as far as recovery goes. I know people who've taken a lot longer and ones who've gone through all the steps (the first time through, anyway) in a matter of just a couple of months. It took me eight months, working every week with my sponsor. The steps are in order for a reason, and someone still on 3 can't effectively jump ahead to 11 as the mood suits them. So...if he's committed, and if he was rigorously honest in step four and worked 8 & 9 with his whole heart, he's on the road to some real changes. He might not seem like the same person a year from now.
Not that that does you any good. That's all things he has to decide and do. I do agree that his recovery must come first if he's any kind of addict like I am. I also believe that the program I use in my daily life requires that I not force my views/beliefs/way of life on anyone else -- not that you said he has, though using his program as a way of creating chaos and interest is something I'd hope he'll outgrow. I'm sure that sounds judgmental, and it is a generalization that has come from working with women (and knowing myself), the addiction to chaos and wanting something always to be going on. It may or may not apply to him, and only he can make that determination, if he's at the point where he can be rigorously honest with himself (something really helped along by the 11th step).
I'm not sure if the link is permitted here, but if you google, "Rabbi Abraham Twerski, AA, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette," you'll find an article that I found to be very helpful. Rabbi Twerski has practiced the twelve steps for a good number of years without having any addictions issues himself -- none that would qualify him for membership based upon accepted criteria, anyway.
Don't ever think you're not deserving of time, kyteach. We all need time from other human beings to learn how to be better human beings.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Charlottesville, Va
Posts: 632
Hi there. I married a non-addict. I met her clean and as a proud member of NA. She knows NA is part of the package with me. She would never make me choose one or the other, she looks at the program as complementing me. She never makes me feel like she's competing with NA for me. I was pretty much up front with it and when I laid my cards on on the table she understood that without NA or recovery there would be no Me. We do not have Nar-Anon in my area. She has been to Al-Anon and didn't think too much of it. The fellowship in my area has embraced her they love her, like an honorary addict. Though she's not addict, she is APART OF us. And that I really owe the fellowship of doing that.
Triangles never work in my experience, there is always a persecutor, a defendent and a victim. It's a horrible place to put any person and as an addict, it's one that I don't like being involved with. I had a sponsee who was in a similar triangle. He put his recovery first and he didn't have to settle for less. He didn't have to settle for someone who wasn't on the same spiritual path as him. He didn't have to live in chaos in the triangle and an inventory later, he was free. Hope that helps
Triangles never work in my experience, there is always a persecutor, a defendent and a victim. It's a horrible place to put any person and as an addict, it's one that I don't like being involved with. I had a sponsee who was in a similar triangle. He put his recovery first and he didn't have to settle for less. He didn't have to settle for someone who wasn't on the same spiritual path as him. He didn't have to live in chaos in the triangle and an inventory later, he was free. Hope that helps
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by Moontime 
She knows NA is part of the package with me.
She never makes me feel like she's competing with NA for me.
I was pretty much up front with it and when I laid my cards on on the table she understood that without NA or recovery there would be no Me.
I never felt like I was competing with NA until the little -what felt like - "jabs" would come out - "you don't have a program to deal with these types of things" or "I need to spend some time with some other addicts to work this (things that I thought were our issues) out" - maybe they weren't jabs, but they felt like jabs. I just felt so...ignorant for the first time in my life, like there was all this stuff I just didn't "get."
I was grateful for NA everytime I looked at him. There was this strong guy, who could communicate how he felt about things, who WANTED to talk about how he felt about things, who was grateful for every single day he woke up alive. His favorite words are Good Morning...because it meant he got another day to try again.
Thank you to all of you for all of your help/advice...
*Grateful*
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,619
Kyteach,
I married a non-addict and was clean when we married. However after I relapesed and started attending meetings, he was happy for me. Since we are both Christians we try to basically live the steps anyway.
Whenever someone bails....it makes me wonder if there is someone else..... there is nothing that makes love grow cold faster than another person. just keep that in mind. Perhaps he was not right for you. I am sorry for your pain and heartache, but yes, it is possible for a normie to marry an addict and be happy. My husband is awesome! He loves for me to stay active in my recovery too. :-)
blessings, Sheila
I married a non-addict and was clean when we married. However after I relapesed and started attending meetings, he was happy for me. Since we are both Christians we try to basically live the steps anyway.
Whenever someone bails....it makes me wonder if there is someone else..... there is nothing that makes love grow cold faster than another person. just keep that in mind. Perhaps he was not right for you. I am sorry for your pain and heartache, but yes, it is possible for a normie to marry an addict and be happy. My husband is awesome! He loves for me to stay active in my recovery too. :-)
blessings, Sheila
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: cape cod
Posts: 2,320
In my marriage I am the addict; my husband is frightened and baffled by the disease. I've been encouraging him to attend al-anon (we don't have narcanon here) because while I think he desparately wants to understand this disease, he can, but only so far.
I do know he encourages me to attend meetings when I get lazy because he knows and I want you to know this for your relationship too, that the addicts recovery has to be number one in their life or they will have no life. Whether it's loss of family, job or life, it's done. So when he tells you these things, unless theres something I'm missing, I believe him. Believe me, you've never know him in active addiction; you probably wouldn't even know him or care to.
Be patient if he's worth it.
I do know he encourages me to attend meetings when I get lazy because he knows and I want you to know this for your relationship too, that the addicts recovery has to be number one in their life or they will have no life. Whether it's loss of family, job or life, it's done. So when he tells you these things, unless theres something I'm missing, I believe him. Believe me, you've never know him in active addiction; you probably wouldn't even know him or care to.
Be patient if he's worth it.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Just wanted to thank everyone for their help and give you the update...
I really haven't heard much from him this week, he would call each day and tell me he was talking to his sponsor a lot, spending a lot of time with other addicts, going to meetings and doing a lot of inventorying...and that when he was ready, we would talk...we finally did.
Thanks to all of you and this entire board (I've been doing A LOT of reading), I felt a little more prepared, and less defensive.
It's not going to work out. He wanted to still be friends, but I had to say no to that, it's really harmful to me and probably later to him...to try to do that, and I told him so...I would have used the friendship to try to work things out and that's dishonest - wrong motives I think.
This is definitely one relationship where I can say I learned a lot...about myself and others.
Thanks again.
I really haven't heard much from him this week, he would call each day and tell me he was talking to his sponsor a lot, spending a lot of time with other addicts, going to meetings and doing a lot of inventorying...and that when he was ready, we would talk...we finally did.
Thanks to all of you and this entire board (I've been doing A LOT of reading), I felt a little more prepared, and less defensive.
It's not going to work out. He wanted to still be friends, but I had to say no to that, it's really harmful to me and probably later to him...to try to do that, and I told him so...I would have used the friendship to try to work things out and that's dishonest - wrong motives I think.
This is definitely one relationship where I can say I learned a lot...about myself and others.
Thanks again.
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
Originally Posted by kyteach74
It's not going to work out. He wanted to still be friends, but I had to say no to that, it's really harmful to me and probably later to him...to try to do that, and I told him so...I would have used the friendship to try to work things out and that's dishonest - wrong motives I think.
This is definitely one relationship where I can say I learned a lot...about myself and others.
Thanks again.
This is definitely one relationship where I can say I learned a lot...about myself and others.
Thanks again.
I'm glad you found help here, kyteach.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: S.E. Mich.
Posts: 1,433
I know plenty of recovering addicts who still have some bad habits, who still create a little drama here and there, including myself. I have found myself at times causing problems when none exist. It comes with the illness, if and when we decide to stop depends on our honesty about it, and willingness to do something about it.
As for being in a relationship, my wife is a non addict person. We were just friends when I was active, and married later on after I got into recovery. It is possible, any relationship is, but without being an addict, you'll never really understand what being one is like.
Just because we're in recovery doesn't mean we're close to perfect, and a persons amount of clean time, isn't the same as being in recovery. This is a thinking/mind disease, and the drug use is a symptom, that causes even more problems. Take away the drugs and we're still left with our thinking, which is what recovery address', and the recovery can't begin, until we take the drugs out of the picture.
I can go for long periods of abstinence myself, but if I'm not in recovery, I act and carry myself just like I'm active.
As for being in a relationship, my wife is a non addict person. We were just friends when I was active, and married later on after I got into recovery. It is possible, any relationship is, but without being an addict, you'll never really understand what being one is like.
Just because we're in recovery doesn't mean we're close to perfect, and a persons amount of clean time, isn't the same as being in recovery. This is a thinking/mind disease, and the drug use is a symptom, that causes even more problems. Take away the drugs and we're still left with our thinking, which is what recovery address', and the recovery can't begin, until we take the drugs out of the picture.
I can go for long periods of abstinence myself, but if I'm not in recovery, I act and carry myself just like I'm active.
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1. Can someone who has never been an addict REALLY understand/be in a relationship with an addict?
2. If we work this out and I ever really find out why he bailed, am I having a relationship with him, am I having a relationship with him and NA?
Sometimes we think there has to be a "reason" for a relationship to end. Sometimes people just stop loving each other. People change. We fall in love but sometimes we fall out of love too...
Good luck to you.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Thanks again to all of you, your input has been invaluable in dealing with all of this and processing all of it.
Looking back and discussing it, he and I both just decided that the relationship just went too fast...and by the time we realized it, it was too late.
we live, we learn
I learned a lot about NA and myself...I'm not sure what he learned, but I'm sure he learned something, or I hope he did.
Looking back and discussing it, he and I both just decided that the relationship just went too fast...and by the time we realized it, it was too late.
we live, we learn
I learned a lot about NA and myself...I'm not sure what he learned, but I'm sure he learned something, or I hope he did.
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