What do you believe?
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rainsville, Alabama
Posts: 189
Its funny I just posted this somewhere else. Im a R.N. and an Alcoholic / Addict among other things. I am also a Lic. Social Worker Not that any of this makes me any more qualified as an alcoholic than any one else. But I do know what I have been taught in school as far as medically and in my mental health courses. Alcoholism is classified as a disease by the AMA b/c it has a set of symptoms that can be identified that affect body systems, organs, brain, and it is progressive and if left untreated will lead to death for the affected person. Some people say that it cant be a disease b/c we do it to ourselves. Well Heart disease is a disease and yet it is caused by lifestyles and choices that we make like eating fatty foods, smoking, sedentary lifestyle not enough exercise, over working, not enough rest the list could go on and on. The point is that many people cause themselves to have heart disease by the choices they make when if they had made other choices they would not have had heart disease. #2 Type 2 Diabetes, this type Diabetes strikes people who eat a diet high in fats, sugar, carbohydrates and are usually very over weight. They have caused this by the diet they choose to eat. These people can usually cure themselves if they follow the diet from their Dr. and loose weight. However this dosent discount the fact that they caused this disease by the choices they made. Not everyone who eats fatty foods, and are couch potatoes will have heart disease. Not everyone who eats sugar, carbohydrates, and is over weight will develop type 2 Diabetes, Not everyone who drinks alcohol will become an alcoholic. Does any of this make any sense? Like what has already been said it really dosn't matter. Keeping it simple is really the best thing to do. Quote Big book pg. 570 " there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer I don't have to complicate anything but I tend to complicate thing that I don't like or that I don't want to do. That way I can find an excuse to not do them.
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Originally Posted by Justme57
As one RN to another ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, well said , and Amen
"that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer " ....... a very favorite quote!
"that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer " ....... a very favorite quote!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 675
Originally Posted by BSPGirl
SMART Recovery: www.smartrecovery.org (sorry for the link 
)
)Cool,.....Ive heard some real good things about SMARTRECOVERY.
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rainsville, Alabama
Posts: 189
If you have stayed sober today you are a success today. That is the most important thing for me today. How I did it is up to me. Congrats to anyone who has stayed sober today . My love to anyone who is struggling with getting sober. My opinions are just that my opinions. Not to be enforced on anyone just shared with love hoping that maybe they might help another alcoholic in need. If not please disreguard as they are not really that important. Debs
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
No worries Debs. My post wasn't directed at you or Lee. I've just seen that quote get thrown around a little too freely, IMO. I've seen nothing but kindness and compassion in your posts.
DK
DK
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 889
Originally Posted by debsjsu
If you have stayed sober today you are a success today. That is the most important thing for me today. How I did it is up to me. Congrats to anyone who has stayed sober today . My love to anyone who is struggling with getting sober. My opinions are just that my opinions. Not to be enforced on anyone just shared with love hoping that maybe they might help another alcoholic in need. If not please disreguard as they are not really that important. Debs
Even if you stayed sober by standing on your head for hrs. 
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: sarnia ontario
Posts: 128
I know I can rationalize and debate anything to death. But, that isn't really gonna help me too much.
I know that A.A. helped me--but not before i was ready for it to help me.
I don't believe that I am completely 'powerless' over alcohol, if that makes sense--I can and do make choices. Like, I can choose to drink or I can choose not to drink. But, I never want to get to the stage where so many of my friends got to so I guess I'll just play it safe. I am certainly powerless over so much and once I drink or get so angry that I don't care anymore--then things aren't good. At one point I hated the 'don't get angry' thing--I didn't understand it and I figured they were all saying to hide stuff under the rug. But, at some point, I have to be careful with regards to anger because ultimately every time I have 'gone back out' it has been due to being very, very angry.
I am an LPN, a mother of 6 and a wife to an addict. It certainly helps at times to believe that HIS addiction is a disease because if I really believe that he intends to do so many of the jack-ass things he does I think I'd kill him ;P
I know that control is often an issue for me and many times if I just give up control -- or rather the illusion of control a little, I am much happier.
I was pregnant last year and had diabetes throughout the pregnancy. I had to give up sugar and my God that was hard to do. I couldn't have done it--any of it--and been as 'happy' as I was (and truly I was still miserable)--without the help of my HP and using the spiritual principals I'd learned in A.A. so long ago. My father, some of you have seen my posts regarding him, is still kicking--and still hanging in there--yet still 'dying' due to the life-style choices he made. Emphasemia, blown kidneys, heart problems--all are the results of his lifestyle choices. He knew he had them-all- yet still had and does have at times a hard time with regards to life-style choices.
The fact that this runs in families doesn't surprise me but I don't worry about whether or not this is due to genetics or just learned ways of being. I mean, to me, what it so often boils down to is the question "is stupidity a disease or a gene?" I often still do things today that defy intelligence and I see this everywhere around me. When I see my father refusing to take things easy or falling of his diet I have 2 choices--I can get baffled and angry at his stupidity or I can understand and let it go. When I see some of the things my husband does that defies intelligence I can get mad at his stupid choices or I can let it go. He's often harder to deal with than my father :p.
I guess, what I'm saying is that if seeing this as a disease helps me to be more tolerant and happier and less angry and prone to relapse myself then I am better of believing this. If I believe that I am in control and need to believe that in order to not drink and stay sane myelf, then obviously this is a better belief system for me to have.
I certainly don't believe that anyone has the right to judge or tell another what they should or shouldn't believe. Belief structures are very individual and I have found can be changed if one particular one isn't working any more for myself.
I know that A.A. helped me--but not before i was ready for it to help me.
I don't believe that I am completely 'powerless' over alcohol, if that makes sense--I can and do make choices. Like, I can choose to drink or I can choose not to drink. But, I never want to get to the stage where so many of my friends got to so I guess I'll just play it safe. I am certainly powerless over so much and once I drink or get so angry that I don't care anymore--then things aren't good. At one point I hated the 'don't get angry' thing--I didn't understand it and I figured they were all saying to hide stuff under the rug. But, at some point, I have to be careful with regards to anger because ultimately every time I have 'gone back out' it has been due to being very, very angry.
I am an LPN, a mother of 6 and a wife to an addict. It certainly helps at times to believe that HIS addiction is a disease because if I really believe that he intends to do so many of the jack-ass things he does I think I'd kill him ;P
I know that control is often an issue for me and many times if I just give up control -- or rather the illusion of control a little, I am much happier.
I was pregnant last year and had diabetes throughout the pregnancy. I had to give up sugar and my God that was hard to do. I couldn't have done it--any of it--and been as 'happy' as I was (and truly I was still miserable)--without the help of my HP and using the spiritual principals I'd learned in A.A. so long ago. My father, some of you have seen my posts regarding him, is still kicking--and still hanging in there--yet still 'dying' due to the life-style choices he made. Emphasemia, blown kidneys, heart problems--all are the results of his lifestyle choices. He knew he had them-all- yet still had and does have at times a hard time with regards to life-style choices.
The fact that this runs in families doesn't surprise me but I don't worry about whether or not this is due to genetics or just learned ways of being. I mean, to me, what it so often boils down to is the question "is stupidity a disease or a gene?" I often still do things today that defy intelligence and I see this everywhere around me. When I see my father refusing to take things easy or falling of his diet I have 2 choices--I can get baffled and angry at his stupidity or I can understand and let it go. When I see some of the things my husband does that defies intelligence I can get mad at his stupid choices or I can let it go. He's often harder to deal with than my father :p.
I guess, what I'm saying is that if seeing this as a disease helps me to be more tolerant and happier and less angry and prone to relapse myself then I am better of believing this. If I believe that I am in control and need to believe that in order to not drink and stay sane myelf, then obviously this is a better belief system for me to have.
I certainly don't believe that anyone has the right to judge or tell another what they should or shouldn't believe. Belief structures are very individual and I have found can be changed if one particular one isn't working any more for myself.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Melbourne victoria
Posts: 1,975
When I was drinking , I was unable to make a choice. Oh! I made em alright , every day! LOL " wont drink today", but as most of us know, it didn't work.
It was only as I got some sobriety under my belt, that i could actually excercise my choices. This is how it was/is for me, it may not apply to everyone.
HUGX
Lee
It was only as I got some sobriety under my belt, that i could actually excercise my choices. This is how it was/is for me, it may not apply to everyone.
HUGX
Lee
Not all better, getting better
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Beautiful Inner Banks of NC
Posts: 1,702
Originally Posted by equus
Tyler - maybe instead ao worrying about the link just forward the reference that gives authority to the list in the OP being 'The modern disease model'?
Could be all of the brian cells I've fried over the years....but I'm not following you here. I just think that there is no reason to remove a link that references what someone posted. That's all. I only skimmed the article before this link was removed and it seemed quite thorough in citing it's sources.BSPGirl, could you PM me that link. Now I'm curious!!
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somwhere over the rainbow
Posts: 1,175
Study Reveals New Genes for Excessive Alcohol Drinking
Researchers supported by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), have identified new genes that may contribute to excessive alcohol consumption. The new study, conducted with strains of animals that have either a high or low innate preference for alcohol, provides clues about the molecular mechanisms that underlie the tendency to drink heavily. A report of the findings appears in the April 18, 2006 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
“These findings provide a wealth of new insights into the molecular determinants of excessive drinking, which could lead to a better understanding of alcoholism,” notes NIAAA Director Ting-Kai Li, M.D. “They also underscore the value that animal models bring to the investigation of complex human disorders such as alcohol dependence.”
Mice that have been selectively bred to have either a high or low preference for alcohol have been a mainstay of alcohol research for many years, allowing investigators to study diverse behavioral and physiological characteristics of alcohol dependence. In the current study, NIAAA grantee Susan E. Bergeson, Ph.D., of the University of Texas (UT) at Austin, and a multi-site team of scientists participating in NIAAA’s Integrative Neuroscience Initiative on Alcoholism (INIA) used microarray techniques to study gene expression in the brains of these animals. Microarrays are powerful tools that investigators use for comprehensive analyses of gene activity.
“Microarrays allow us to look at the full complement of genes that are active in the brains of animals bred to exhibit very different alcohol drinking behaviors,” said Dr. Bergeson, an Assistant Professor of Neurobiology in UT’s Waggoner Center for Alcohol and Addiction Research. When a gene is activated, cellular machinery transcribes certain parts of the gene’s DNA into messenger RNA (mRNA), which is the body's template for creating proteins. The complete set of transcribed mRNA in a tissue is termed the “transcriptome.”
Dr. Bergeson and her INIA colleagues examined brain transcriptomes of nine strains of mice, each differing in their voluntary alcohol consumption.
“By measuring total gene expression in brains of each of the mouse models we could explore which transcripts are consistently changed in different genetic models of high and low alcohol intake and thereby define the transcriptional signatures of genetic predisposition to high and low alcohol consumption,” said Dr. Bergeson.
The researchers employed novel statistical techniques to identify nearly 4,000 differentially expressed genes between the high and low alcohol drinking mouse strains and to narrow the focus to 75 primary candidate genes. In addition, a comparison of the mouse data with human genetic studies revealed that genes with significant expression differences reside in chromosomal regions that previously were shown to be associated with human alcoholism.
Numerous pathways, as well as genes whose functions are currently unknown, may contribute to the genetic predisposition to drink high amounts of alcohol, notes Dr. Bergeson. “Our results will allow us to begin to focus on targets never previously implicated in excessive drinking. For example, genetic studies have shown that chromosome 9 contains genes that may regulate alcohol consumption in mice. Our analyses allowed us to narrow our focus from thousands of genes in that region to twenty."
“This first microarray-based analysis of a behavioral trait reveals many new research opportunities and exemplifies the rich collaborative potential of NIAAA’s INIA consortium,” adds Dr. Li.
The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, part of the National Institutes of Health, is the primary U.S. agency for conducting and supporting research on the causes, consequences, prevention, and treatment of alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and alcohol problems and disseminates research findings to general, professional, and academic audiences. Additional alcohol research information and publications are available at www.niaaa.nih.gov.
The National Institutes of Health (NIH) — The Nation's Medical Research Agency — includes 27 Institutes and Centers and is a component of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. It is the primary federal agency for conducting and supporting basic, clinical and translational medical research, and it investigates the causes, treatments, and cures for both common and rare diseases. For more information about NIH and its programs, visit http://www.nih.gov.
Reference: Mulligan, MK, et al. Toward Understanding the Genetics of Alcohol Drinking Through Transcriptome Meta-analysis. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 2006 103/16: 6368-6373.
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Researchers supported by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), have identified new genes that may contribute to excessive alcohol consumption. The new study, conducted with strains of animals that have either a high or low innate preference for alcohol, provides clues about the molecular mechanisms that underlie the tendency to drink heavily. A report of the findings appears in the April 18, 2006 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
“These findings provide a wealth of new insights into the molecular determinants of excessive drinking, which could lead to a better understanding of alcoholism,” notes NIAAA Director Ting-Kai Li, M.D. “They also underscore the value that animal models bring to the investigation of complex human disorders such as alcohol dependence.”
Mice that have been selectively bred to have either a high or low preference for alcohol have been a mainstay of alcohol research for many years, allowing investigators to study diverse behavioral and physiological characteristics of alcohol dependence. In the current study, NIAAA grantee Susan E. Bergeson, Ph.D., of the University of Texas (UT) at Austin, and a multi-site team of scientists participating in NIAAA’s Integrative Neuroscience Initiative on Alcoholism (INIA) used microarray techniques to study gene expression in the brains of these animals. Microarrays are powerful tools that investigators use for comprehensive analyses of gene activity.
“Microarrays allow us to look at the full complement of genes that are active in the brains of animals bred to exhibit very different alcohol drinking behaviors,” said Dr. Bergeson, an Assistant Professor of Neurobiology in UT’s Waggoner Center for Alcohol and Addiction Research. When a gene is activated, cellular machinery transcribes certain parts of the gene’s DNA into messenger RNA (mRNA), which is the body's template for creating proteins. The complete set of transcribed mRNA in a tissue is termed the “transcriptome.”
Dr. Bergeson and her INIA colleagues examined brain transcriptomes of nine strains of mice, each differing in their voluntary alcohol consumption.
“By measuring total gene expression in brains of each of the mouse models we could explore which transcripts are consistently changed in different genetic models of high and low alcohol intake and thereby define the transcriptional signatures of genetic predisposition to high and low alcohol consumption,” said Dr. Bergeson.
The researchers employed novel statistical techniques to identify nearly 4,000 differentially expressed genes between the high and low alcohol drinking mouse strains and to narrow the focus to 75 primary candidate genes. In addition, a comparison of the mouse data with human genetic studies revealed that genes with significant expression differences reside in chromosomal regions that previously were shown to be associated with human alcoholism.
Numerous pathways, as well as genes whose functions are currently unknown, may contribute to the genetic predisposition to drink high amounts of alcohol, notes Dr. Bergeson. “Our results will allow us to begin to focus on targets never previously implicated in excessive drinking. For example, genetic studies have shown that chromosome 9 contains genes that may regulate alcohol consumption in mice. Our analyses allowed us to narrow our focus from thousands of genes in that region to twenty."
“This first microarray-based analysis of a behavioral trait reveals many new research opportunities and exemplifies the rich collaborative potential of NIAAA’s INIA consortium,” adds Dr. Li.
The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, part of the National Institutes of Health, is the primary U.S. agency for conducting and supporting research on the causes, consequences, prevention, and treatment of alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and alcohol problems and disseminates research findings to general, professional, and academic audiences. Additional alcohol research information and publications are available at www.niaaa.nih.gov.
The National Institutes of Health (NIH) — The Nation's Medical Research Agency — includes 27 Institutes and Centers and is a component of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. It is the primary federal agency for conducting and supporting basic, clinical and translational medical research, and it investigates the causes, treatments, and cures for both common and rare diseases. For more information about NIH and its programs, visit http://www.nih.gov.
Reference: Mulligan, MK, et al. Toward Understanding the Genetics of Alcohol Drinking Through Transcriptome Meta-analysis. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 2006 103/16: 6368-6373.
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Originally Posted by tyler
Could be all of the brian cells I've fried over the years....but I'm not following you here. I just think that there is no reason to remove a link that references what someone posted. That's all. I only skimmed the article before this link was removed and it seemed quite thorough in citing it's sources.BSPGirl, could you PM me that link. Now I'm curious!!
Nice article Laviathon - I think the NIAAA site is excellent!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 29
I belive that the NIAA is nothing more than an AA propaganda machine. Just read the history page of the organization.
Additionally, the web page where this taxpayer-supported government agency is supposed to be giving you valid, honest information about the various aids to recovery that are available. They list 12-Step oriented web sites, but do not list any of the non-12 Step alternatives like SMART or Rational Recovery. Practical Recovery reports that they have repeated asked the NIAAA to change this page, but they refuse to do so. Why is that? Are the authorities at the NIAAA taking bribes, or is it run by "members?"
Treatment centers thrive on "data" churned out by this organization, feeding this multi-billion dollar industry. That's what is supporting the genetic research.
Food for thought.
-Scott
Additionally, the web page where this taxpayer-supported government agency is supposed to be giving you valid, honest information about the various aids to recovery that are available. They list 12-Step oriented web sites, but do not list any of the non-12 Step alternatives like SMART or Rational Recovery. Practical Recovery reports that they have repeated asked the NIAAA to change this page, but they refuse to do so. Why is that? Are the authorities at the NIAAA taking bribes, or is it run by "members?"
Treatment centers thrive on "data" churned out by this organization, feeding this multi-billion dollar industry. That's what is supporting the genetic research.
Food for thought.
-Scott
1 bite&all resistance crumbles
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: IRELAND
Posts: 2,208
*******,
If NIAA is indeed a propaganda machine, I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with AA;...sure one of the precepts of aa is that it's about ATTRACTION and not PROMOTION
If NIAA is indeed a propaganda machine, I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with AA;...sure one of the precepts of aa is that it's about ATTRACTION and not PROMOTION
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
NIAAA offered me my first links into research. I know certainly that it includes articles which challenge some AA concepts - I also doubt it has direct connections. What I've liked about the site is it's access to research and research findings - even where they differ from it's own statements.
Like most things science itself isn't black and white - it's a continuing process of discovery and debate. However ther comes a point where evidence begins to pile up, like the world being round and evolution - there may still be those who differ but while they often claim growing numbers the reality appears very different.
In this case my issue was with the OP definition of 'the modern disease model' - just as I might seek reference to a creationist's statement about evolution if it was unrecognisable from it's dictionary meaning or the means to gather evidence. If a creationist fictionalises the meaning of evolution it may be very easy to then argue against that fiction with references.
What I believe is that arguing disease status is utterly pointless when it's meaning hasn't been agreed on. I vote every time for the dictionary meaning of disease and the clinical criteria given to alcohol dependency and abuse - it's those I support not 'all and every' opinion of what individuals think it should mean.
Like most things science itself isn't black and white - it's a continuing process of discovery and debate. However ther comes a point where evidence begins to pile up, like the world being round and evolution - there may still be those who differ but while they often claim growing numbers the reality appears very different.
In this case my issue was with the OP definition of 'the modern disease model' - just as I might seek reference to a creationist's statement about evolution if it was unrecognisable from it's dictionary meaning or the means to gather evidence. If a creationist fictionalises the meaning of evolution it may be very easy to then argue against that fiction with references.
What I believe is that arguing disease status is utterly pointless when it's meaning hasn't been agreed on. I vote every time for the dictionary meaning of disease and the clinical criteria given to alcohol dependency and abuse - it's those I support not 'all and every' opinion of what individuals think it should mean.
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