What do you believe?
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Originally Posted by fritolay
People who "recovered" through AA HAVE to believe it's a disease, or their recovery goes down the tubes. Therefore, I will refrain from pointing out the truth to them, for fear they will fall off the wagon. Sooner or later it's all going to come crashing down for them anyway, as it always does, because AA (and recovery groups like it) is just a temporary fix to a deeper problem. I can't imagine why anybody would willingly decide to tell themselves that they are weak and powerless and have absolutely no control over themselves--talk about defeated. I'm tired of all the stupid, lame excuses like "Oh, do you think I really wanted to drink? No! Alcohol made me do it! My disease made me!" Good lord. Human nature, people. Little kids run down the aisles of the grocery store and want candy. They want it so bad they cry and kick and scream and call their parents names when they don't get it. Imagine if we told the kids, hey it's not your fault, you're completely powerless over your candyholic disease, blah blah. Or the fatty who can't go home without a McDonald's milkshake, and nevermind all the people who pollute their lungs with smoke. For them, they make these decisions, regardless how it adversely affects them. For drunks, we tell them they needn't bother feeling guilty or taking responsibility, because they are diseased. I'm going to stop now, before someone who bought the disease model for their own recovery gets convinced and decides to pick up a bottle again.
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Livonia, MI
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Originally Posted by fritolay
People who "recovered" through AA HAVE to believe it's a disease, or their recovery goes down the tubes. Therefore, I will refrain from pointing out the truth to them, for fear they will fall off the wagon. Sooner or later it's all going to come crashing down for them anyway, as it always does, because AA (and recovery groups like it) is just a temporary fix to a deeper problem. I can't imagine why anybody would willingly decide to tell themselves that they are weak and powerless and have absolutely no control over themselves--talk about defeated. I'm tired of all the stupid, lame excuses like "Oh, do you think I really wanted to drink? No! Alcohol made me do it! My disease made me!" Good lord. Human nature, people. Little kids run down the aisles of the grocery store and want candy. They want it so bad they cry and kick and scream and call their parents names when they don't get it. Imagine if we told the kids, hey it's not your fault, you're completely powerless over your candyholic disease, blah blah. Or the fatty who can't go home without a McDonald's milkshake, and nevermind all the people who pollute their lungs with smoke. For them, they make these decisions, regardless how it adversely affects them. For drunks, we tell them they needn't bother feeling guilty or taking responsibility, because they are diseased. I'm going to stop now, before someone who bought the disease model for their own recovery gets convinced and decides to pick up a bottle again.
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Originally Posted by fritolay
People who "recovered" through AA HAVE to believe it's a disease, or their recovery goes down the tubes. Therefore, I will refrain from pointing out the truth to them, for fear they will fall off the wagon. Sooner or later it's all going to come crashing down for them anyway, as it always does, because AA (and recovery groups like it) is just a temporary fix to a deeper problem. I can't imagine why anybody would willingly decide to tell themselves that they are weak and powerless and have absolutely no control over themselves--talk about defeated. I'm tired of all the stupid, lame excuses like "Oh, do you think I really wanted to drink? No! Alcohol made me do it! My disease made me!" Good lord. Human nature, people. Little kids run down the aisles of the grocery store and want candy. They want it so bad they cry and kick and scream and call their parents names when they don't get it. Imagine if we told the kids, hey it's not your fault, you're completely powerless over your candyholic disease, blah blah. Or the fatty who can't go home without a McDonald's milkshake, and nevermind all the people who pollute their lungs with smoke. For them, they make these decisions, regardless how it adversely affects them. For drunks, we tell them they needn't bother feeling guilty or taking responsibility, because they are diseased. I'm going to stop now, before someone who bought the disease model for their own recovery gets convinced and decides to pick up a bottle again.
DK
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As an active member of AA, I have never referred to myself as recovered. I will always be an alcoholic. I will continue to do just fine, as long as I don't drink.
I have no problem dealing with the truth. Don't hold back anything. I can handle it. I have also dealt with the issues that induced my drinking. Can you say the same?
I think you are confused with many issues dealing with alcoholism and AA. I have control of myself and don't feel in the least bit defeated. I feel quite enpowered in fact. My problem only rears it's ugly head when I allow myself to believe I can drink like normal drinkers.
I haven't had to make excuses for anything I've done since I quit drinking. I am responsible and in control. Remember, I only run into trouble when I drink. Take alcohol out of the equation and I am okay, better then okay really.
For the record, I no longer crave, want, or need a drink. I do get a hankering for ice cream on occasion. Is that alright? I'm not sure anymore. That may indicate to you that I fall under some other aholic category, creamaholic perhaps.
As far as your candy and children reference, yeah, haven't we all seen the spoiled little children acting out in an ill behaved manner before. Hmmmm....you quite remind me of such childish behavior. Didn't I see you earlier today kicking and screaming in the candy isle? Go figure...
I have no problem dealing with the truth. Don't hold back anything. I can handle it. I have also dealt with the issues that induced my drinking. Can you say the same?
I think you are confused with many issues dealing with alcoholism and AA. I have control of myself and don't feel in the least bit defeated. I feel quite enpowered in fact. My problem only rears it's ugly head when I allow myself to believe I can drink like normal drinkers.
I haven't had to make excuses for anything I've done since I quit drinking. I am responsible and in control. Remember, I only run into trouble when I drink. Take alcohol out of the equation and I am okay, better then okay really.
For the record, I no longer crave, want, or need a drink. I do get a hankering for ice cream on occasion. Is that alright? I'm not sure anymore. That may indicate to you that I fall under some other aholic category, creamaholic perhaps.
As far as your candy and children reference, yeah, haven't we all seen the spoiled little children acting out in an ill behaved manner before. Hmmmm....you quite remind me of such childish behavior. Didn't I see you earlier today kicking and screaming in the candy isle? Go figure...
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 31
7. The fact that alcoholism runs in families means that it is a genetic disease.
What's the dispute with that? What's a family but a historic gene pool? Are we ignoring the obvious? Is anyone suprised at the Partick Kennedy stuff going on right now? If one walks through a forrest and notices that certain insects are attracted to certain trees, are they just going to say that it's a conincidence? That whole 'apple doesn't fall far from the tree' thing. It seems that opinion tends to take a while to catch up to science. There's tons of science in 'Beyond the Influence' which is rather convincing. Admitedly, there's a mental component which I'm not about to argue with.
FWIW, my father stopped drinking when I was 8, when he was 50ish. I have about two memories of him as a drinker. I've got another couple memories of his side of the family, and they all invlove beer. My mother hardly, ever, ever drank or drinks. Booze was not a component in my upbrining. The point being, how could I be emulating something I've rarely, if ever, been exposed to? But for some reason I've always been able to drink and keep up with people who had 60+ pounds on me.
Another thing: Some time ago I took a couple [Coladapine?] with some friends, and liqour, of course. The next day thier memories were jacked and they woke up way outta sorts. I was like 'I'm okay..I didn't notice anything weird.' Again, 'Beyond the Influence' suggests that us Alkaloids have an unusual response to this sort of drug for certain physiological reasons. Oh, and we should probably not take Tylenol.
Good luck and thanks for reading.
**BTW, BSPGirl, the Netherlands rocks! Your country's flood control program is a modern marvel! ...and nobody appreciates Metal like your part of Europe, which makes you guys okay by default. Anyone for some King Diamond?
What's the dispute with that? What's a family but a historic gene pool? Are we ignoring the obvious? Is anyone suprised at the Partick Kennedy stuff going on right now? If one walks through a forrest and notices that certain insects are attracted to certain trees, are they just going to say that it's a conincidence? That whole 'apple doesn't fall far from the tree' thing. It seems that opinion tends to take a while to catch up to science. There's tons of science in 'Beyond the Influence' which is rather convincing. Admitedly, there's a mental component which I'm not about to argue with.
FWIW, my father stopped drinking when I was 8, when he was 50ish. I have about two memories of him as a drinker. I've got another couple memories of his side of the family, and they all invlove beer. My mother hardly, ever, ever drank or drinks. Booze was not a component in my upbrining. The point being, how could I be emulating something I've rarely, if ever, been exposed to? But for some reason I've always been able to drink and keep up with people who had 60+ pounds on me.
Another thing: Some time ago I took a couple [Coladapine?] with some friends, and liqour, of course. The next day thier memories were jacked and they woke up way outta sorts. I was like 'I'm okay..I didn't notice anything weird.' Again, 'Beyond the Influence' suggests that us Alkaloids have an unusual response to this sort of drug for certain physiological reasons. Oh, and we should probably not take Tylenol.
Good luck and thanks for reading.
**BTW, BSPGirl, the Netherlands rocks! Your country's flood control program is a modern marvel! ...and nobody appreciates Metal like your part of Europe, which makes you guys okay by default. Anyone for some King Diamond?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 675
[QUOTE=fritolay]you're completely powerless over your candyholic disease, blah blah. Or the fatty who can't go home without a McDonald's milkshake/QUOTE]
How is this statement NOT obnoxious? Fatty?? Lemme ask,...did candy chompin', milkshake swillin', marlboro tokin',fatties run in your family? Lots-o-hositility on your end. C'mon, fritolay,..."get yer smile on"
How is this statement NOT obnoxious? Fatty?? Lemme ask,...did candy chompin', milkshake swillin', marlboro tokin',fatties run in your family? Lots-o-hositility on your end. C'mon, fritolay,..."get yer smile on"
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what do you believe?
Originally Posted by fritolay
People who "recovered" through AA HAVE to believe it's a disease, or their recovery goes down the tubes. Therefore, I will refrain from pointing out the truth to them, for fear they will fall off the wagon. Sooner or later it's all going to come crashing down for them anyway, as it always does, because AA (and recovery groups like it) is just a temporary fix to a deeper problem. I can't imagine why anybody would willingly decide to tell themselves that they are weak and powerless and have absolutely no control over themselves--talk about defeated. I'm tired of all the stupid, lame excuses like "Oh, do you think I really wanted to drink? No! Alcohol made me do it! My disease made me!" Good lord. Human nature, people. Little kids run down the aisles of the grocery store and want candy. They want it so bad they cry and kick and scream and call their parents names when they don't get it. Imagine if we told the kids, hey it's not your fault, you're completely powerless over your candyholic disease, blah blah. Or the fatty who can't go home without a McDonald's milkshake, and nevermind all the people who pollute their lungs with smoke. For them, they make these decisions, regardless how it adversely affects them. For drunks, we tell them they needn't bother feeling guilty or taking responsibility, because they are diseased. I'm going to stop now, before someone who bought the disease model for their own recovery gets convinced and decides to pick up a bottle again.
AA has never labeled alcoholism as a disease. And you had better believe I was defeated. Defeated by ten years of attempting to get sober. Ten years of believing the lie that all I had to do was change my environment, get a positive outlook, don't hang out at that bar with those guys. I could not will myself sober.
Don't worry about me falling off the wagon as you put it. I have recovered and don't believe that any influenc beyond my own thinking will get me drinking again.
And I have taken responsibility for my own recovery amd my own life. I am the captain of my own destiny.
If AA isn't for you, that's fine. Just don't knock what has saved many lives. I'm not too interested in your opinion of an experience you obviously never had.
body ~ mind ~ spirit
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Each to their own way of thinking about their alcoholism. At the end of the day for me to stop drinking I had to work out my own agenda with alcohol, be that by discussing it with others or reading, watching movies, comparing myself to others, lots of things. I can't make anyone else think like me or believe like me, but I can share my thoughts.
I don't percieve a disease as being the worst thing in the world to have, so for me I don't worry if alcohol is classified as a disease, but I can see others may have a problem with that. I did think that I wasn't the worst person under the sun to be alcoholic and I did think that there were great gains for me personally to not consuming alcohol - that helped me find will power (whatever else you call it) to say no to drinking.
love Brigid
I don't percieve a disease as being the worst thing in the world to have, so for me I don't worry if alcohol is classified as a disease, but I can see others may have a problem with that. I did think that I wasn't the worst person under the sun to be alcoholic and I did think that there were great gains for me personally to not consuming alcohol - that helped me find will power (whatever else you call it) to say no to drinking.
love Brigid
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Not to inflame here, that's not my intent, but let's extend this to another 'disease.' Diabetes is an example that suits my purpose. Let's say it runs in your family. Are we conficted on the genetic predisposition towards diabetes? One may be able to avoid it through proper nutrition and exercise. What if one doesn't manage to avoid it? Is it a failure of personal repsonsiblity?
body ~ mind ~ spirit
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Originally Posted by GhostInTheRuins
What if one doesn't manage to avoid it? Is it a failure of personal repsonsiblity?
The emotion of it all does not change the outcome for the person who can't manage the disease.
I am thankful that I have found a way to manage my challenge in life and I hope others can find the same.
This is a modern world where we have relaxed the rules for survival, there are so many of us that it is not so important for us to make sure that everyone survives. If there were less each person would be more important to the species and our society would ensure that we stuck closer to healthy practices.
I don't see it as "failure" so much as "inevitable" for some people and I can only look after my own back yard and look for the positives.
love Brigid
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Can we step a bit off of the path and explore the changes that are coming about in treating alcoholism from a medical stand point? They are doing research and pharmaceutical companies are coming out with new drugs to diminish the cravings for alcohol.
Probably a way for pharmaceutical companies to get richer, but if someone can benefit from the results, I think it is a good idea. I know I would have given anything in the beginning to help with the cravings. I just wanted something to help me get firm on my feet until I could build my tools and stand on my own with a healthy program of recovery. Others may disagree, but if it is a disease, the AMA is looking into treating it as one with medication. Or, another ploy for the pharmaceutical companies to get richer.
Probably a way for pharmaceutical companies to get richer, but if someone can benefit from the results, I think it is a good idea. I know I would have given anything in the beginning to help with the cravings. I just wanted something to help me get firm on my feet until I could build my tools and stand on my own with a healthy program of recovery. Others may disagree, but if it is a disease, the AMA is looking into treating it as one with medication. Or, another ploy for the pharmaceutical companies to get richer.
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I wanted to try that drug. My insurance company wouldn't pay for it. I was heart broken when they turned me down. I thought it was my only chance for sobriety. In time, I did build my sobriety tools and was able to move forward. It was very hard and took some time though. There were a few incidents of trial and error. I look at them now as strengthening tools. I learned a little something by each failure. The last relapse in particular, I learned that if I didn't stop, I would more then likely die. It scared me sober, really.
Not all better, getting better
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I believe BSPgirl uses the SMART recovery program to help with her recovery. I'm not sure what difference that makes. I am also a bit unclear why the link to her original post was deleted, as I see links on many, many other posts here on SR. I'm not claiming any kind of conspiracy, but it does seem to smack of selective enforcement, especially in this case where the link was just to the complete article where people could see what the author cited for sources.
And for DK, if there was ever an unlikely defender of AA, DK is your man!!!! Fair is fair though, the program helps many, many people and I'm thankful it is out there for those it helps. In the words of Rodney Kind, "Can't we all just get along?"
And for DK, if there was ever an unlikely defender of AA, DK is your man!!!! Fair is fair though, the program helps many, many people and I'm thankful it is out there for those it helps. In the words of Rodney Kind, "Can't we all just get along?"
Originally Posted by earlybird
May I ask what program you follow? Im just curious.
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Originally Posted by 2dayzmuse
Can we step a bit off of the path and explore the changes that are coming about in treating alcoholism from a medical stand point? They are doing research and pharmaceutical companies are coming out with new drugs to diminish the cravings for alcohol.
Probably a way for pharmaceutical companies to get richer, but if someone can benefit from the results, I think it is a good idea. I know I would have given anything in the beginning to help with the cravings. I just wanted something to help me get firm on my feet until I could build my tools and stand on my own with a healthy program of recovery. Others may disagree, but if it is a disease, the AMA is looking into treating it as one with medication. Or, another ploy for the pharmaceutical companies to get richer.
Probably a way for pharmaceutical companies to get richer, but if someone can benefit from the results, I think it is a good idea. I know I would have given anything in the beginning to help with the cravings. I just wanted something to help me get firm on my feet until I could build my tools and stand on my own with a healthy program of recovery. Others may disagree, but if it is a disease, the AMA is looking into treating it as one with medication. Or, another ploy for the pharmaceutical companies to get richer.
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Originally Posted by earlybird
May I ask what program you follow? Im just curious.
)
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I posted a good article about antabuse - it really is helping some people
Thanks five, I'll have to check it out. Antabuse scares me. It is used as a deterrent from drinking alcohol. But, we are sick people in the midst of our disease. Many people continue to drink while taking it and it about kills them. I would have to say, I'm afraid I would be one of those people that would risk drinking while taking it. I was a pretty sick puppy. I like the path of working on blocking the cravings for alcohol. Hopefully things will improve in the future and medicine and recovery can work side by side.
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7. The fact that alcoholism runs in families means that it is a genetic disease.
What's the dispute with that? What's a family but a historic gene pool?
What's the dispute with that? What's a family but a historic gene pool?
Secondly a genetic link doesn't neccessarily mean a genetic cause. The gene may express as a vulnerability that depends on enviroment to become a problem.
The fact that alcoholism runs in families means that it is a genetic disease. (emph added)
Lastly, the chances of there being a single cause I would guess at about 1000 to 1!
Tyler - maybe instead ao worrying about the link just forward the reference that gives authority to the list in the OP being 'The modern disease model'?
I think what has been argued against in the article is a fallacy. I cannot imagine that as any kind of serious CLINICAL model. If I'm wrong I promise to argue just as strongly against!
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Originally Posted by minnie
I have heard (and read on here) people with a drinking problem justify their continued drinking by saying they have a disease. It seems just another way of carrying on doing what they've always done and shows they aren't ready to do anything about it just yet. If the disease model didn't exist, another reason/excuse would be found, so I'm not sure anyone needs to be too worried that it's causing harm.
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I think family members of drinkers, whether the drinker is called alcoholic and diseased or not, have the greatest problem dealing with the term disease. It can be used as a crutch to cover or "co" the husband/wife's bad behavior with alcohol and way beyond. I know people and have read posts where partners go so far as to ask if cheating, lying, abandonment and even beating, you name it, is part of the "disease". The disease is used as a reason to stay and "help" when it is clear that is a course for disaster.
The reality is what ever you call anything or anyone by whatever name, at the end of the day the one thing we all own is our own behavior.
If a drinker says I cant help it I cant stop I have a disease, well then someone needs to raise the flag
If a spouse says I cant leave he/she has a disease, well then the flag should go up again.
Make your choices, live your life, do it because its what you want to do. Reach out and get the help you need to do the "right thing for you",
just don't hide behind accepting or denying a disease concept on either side of the fence to justify behavior.
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