So it DOES go down as well as up...
1 bite&all resistance crumbles
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Hi Champion, I just think there is a fundamental difference, really. There's a great passage actually that I read today that I'll post for you (much shorter) I'm sorry if I sound rigid, I just have, for me, got past the whole intellectualising (not saying you are doing that, you are clearly very clever and insightful!) of alcoholism...I know I have it, I know AA works, I have physicalyl SEEN spirituality at work in people in those meetings...my spirituality involves GOd...I just hope people who are agnostic etc don't get put off AA just becuase they think its a religious program.
Hey Arthur, great to hear from you, sounds like you are still sober! Good for you!! Me too! My post was 99% cut and paste...but bottom line, I wish you'd try a meeting, you'd be so welcome, and it WORKS and it's like meeting all the good folk in SR in person - people aren't unhappy there, quite the reverse - I come home beaming (and I sometimes esp at beginning have cried, but leave really peaceful)
Anyway, as I said, it's a gift, I hope you take it, but if you don't, we are, I am here for you and it's wonderful to have you here - ChampionRabbit as well! Great posts, and great to have you here - different strokes and all that. Esp nice to have more people from this side of whatever the sea is between us lol!
Cathy31
x
Hey Arthur, great to hear from you, sounds like you are still sober! Good for you!! Me too! My post was 99% cut and paste...but bottom line, I wish you'd try a meeting, you'd be so welcome, and it WORKS and it's like meeting all the good folk in SR in person - people aren't unhappy there, quite the reverse - I come home beaming (and I sometimes esp at beginning have cried, but leave really peaceful)
Anyway, as I said, it's a gift, I hope you take it, but if you don't, we are, I am here for you and it's wonderful to have you here - ChampionRabbit as well! Great posts, and great to have you here - different strokes and all that. Esp nice to have more people from this side of whatever the sea is between us lol!
Cathy31
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Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
I don't agree; I think that 'spirituality' is a phrase used by people who are embarrassed (or otherwise unwilling) to use the word 'religion' to describe their 'religion'. Pretty much everything that your C&P claims defines spirituality can be found in religion.
I have no particular axe to grind when it comes to religion (beyond it's historical abuse/misuse), I just don't 'believe' in ghosts/santa/elves/wizards/Jesus etc. Quite what is to be gained by the almost universal 'no true Scotsman'-like logical fallacy used by AA members when it comes to denial of their religious beliefs, I have no idea.
Something that I find hilariously ironic is that while AA is only too happy to use the fact that a US Government-related body claims that alcoholism is a disease to promote it's teachings, the AA seems wilfully oblivious to the fact that the US Government also increasingly considers the AA to be a religious organisation.
Since you aren't interested in debate though, we'll leave it there.
Ultimately, different strokes for different folks; if you're happy calling a 'teapot' a 'tiger' then far be it from me to dissuade you!
Adam
I have no particular axe to grind when it comes to religion (beyond it's historical abuse/misuse), I just don't 'believe' in ghosts/santa/elves/wizards/Jesus etc. Quite what is to be gained by the almost universal 'no true Scotsman'-like logical fallacy used by AA members when it comes to denial of their religious beliefs, I have no idea.
Something that I find hilariously ironic is that while AA is only too happy to use the fact that a US Government-related body claims that alcoholism is a disease to promote it's teachings, the AA seems wilfully oblivious to the fact that the US Government also increasingly considers the AA to be a religious organisation.
Since you aren't interested in debate though, we'll leave it there.
Ultimately, different strokes for different folks; if you're happy calling a 'teapot' a 'tiger' then far be it from me to dissuade you!
Adam
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London
Posts: 53
The difference between spirituality and religion makes sense for me. Although I don't believe in any set religion and don't attend AA, I can say that the main motivation for battling addiction and maintaining sobriety is to have a more fulfilled spiritual life. I admit to not really being able to lay out exactly what I mean because for me the very word spiritual is indefineable. It's just an instinctual notion or concept I guess.
Where can I get a cup of tea?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Too busy to get into a long discussion about religion and spirituality, but I would say that spirituality is knowledge of the universe and what's beyond it, and is not bounded by any religion or dogma.
No booze, no entanglements, no dependencies - happy!
No booze, no entanglements, no dependencies - happy!
Not the center of the Universe
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orchard Lake, Michigan
Posts: 974
Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
I don't agree; I think that 'spirituality' is a phrase used by people who are embarrassed (or otherwise unwilling) to use the word 'religion' to describe their 'religion'.
If it pleases someone to know that on one level all of this is just a matter of chemical reactions going on in the N pounds of flesh they walk around in and that is enough for them, more power to them. For me, that knowledge doesn't change the fact that the joys and sorrows are real. For me, that knowledge doesn't impact my belief that there really is a right and a wrong or a GOOD and an EVIL if you prefer. If I live my life heading towards the good and I get to the end and that is all there is, that is enough. I will still have lived a good life, I will still have played my part in the cosmic joke or the cosmic plan to the best of my ablility, and I will have done the little one man can do to make things better for all of us walking, thinking, loving bundles of chemical reactions.
One Love, One Heart,
Tony
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Originally Posted by ArthurDent
I would say that spirituality is knowledge of the universe and what's beyond it
One might claim to know that for which there is no evidence but what is knowledge without evidence?
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Originally Posted by findingout
I must jump into these shark infested waters. For me, 'spirituality' means the common bonds that unite us as humans. The joys and sorrows that we all feel at some level. The beauty that is there in a field of flowers, the emotional pain that is there when someone we love dies.
If those who claim to be 'spiritual' can't even agree on the definition of 'spiritualism' then as a term or concept it's clearly not very useful.
1 bite&all resistance crumbles
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
One might claim to know that for which there is no evidence but what is knowledge without evidence?
Arthur, yay!!! Got through Friday night! Brilliant!!
Love to you all, your post really moved me Tony, I can relate to it alot. And Champion I can totally see where you are coming from, I just choose differently.
Cathy31
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Not the center of the Universe
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orchard Lake, Michigan
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Originally Posted by Cathy31
My opinion : the only truly happy serene and sober alcoholics I have ever come across here and in real life, whose way of life I would want to emulate are those in AA. Simple. It works. If you work it.
Of course, there probably are truly happy serene and sober (recovering or recovered) alcoholics walking around who did it all by themselves, without any help and without telling anyone. The point is that they are of no use to me. It's not like they walk around carrying signs that read "Hi, I'm a recovered alcoholic and I did it all by myself! Ask me how."Trust me, if I could have done it all by myself, I would have. I certainly didn't want to believe that anyone else knew I was an alcoholic - let alone tell them
One Love, One Heart,
Tony
1 bite&all resistance crumbles
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But you're assuming I am saying Faith in Religion!!!
Faith is so much bigger and broader than that. And it's a beautiful way to live. Dunno quite what you against it...but it's not religion!!!!
Faith is so much bigger and broader than that. And it's a beautiful way to live. Dunno quite what you against it...but it's not religion!!!!
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Originally Posted by findingout
The point is that they are of no use to me. It's not like they walk around carrying signs that read "Hi, I'm a recovered alcoholic and I did it all by myself! Ask me how."
Exactly!!
Such a fundamental and obvious point, but missed by so many!
The 'success' rates are 5% with AA and 5% without, so...well...different strokes and all that!
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Originally Posted by Cathy31
But you're assuming I am saying Faith in Religion!!!
Faith is so much bigger and broader than that. And it's a beautiful way to live. Dunno quite what you against it...but it's not religion!!!!
Faith is so much bigger and broader than that. And it's a beautiful way to live. Dunno quite what you against it...but it's not religion!!!!
The way I see it, you're either scientific in your thinking or you aren't.
1 bite&all resistance crumbles
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Champion where on earth did you get that statistic from?? That's ridiculous! Everyone knows...or should know...that AA statistics and recovery statistics in general are notoriously false and wrong! When last was there a census on this, anyway!
How's your way working for you, btw?
If it's working, super!
How's your way working for you, btw?
If it's working, super!
Where can I get a cup of tea?
Thread Starter
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Interesting discussion, but as always in life, definitions are a problem. Definitions being differently perceived, and language not being enough to convey what we really feel deep inside, where nobody else can see but ourselves.
Without wishing to define how anyone else percieves their life, or what their soul/mind/body feels, may I suggest that faith is belief in something not seen or experienced, as if it's experienced, there is no more need for faith, as it's become knowledge. Beliefs (as faith) can be upset, disproved, or no longer believed in, which is why faith fails people. Knowledge by experience is far more valuable and permanent.
I've met angels, and they are not religious, not christian, not jewish, not androgenous, not messengers between any god and us, but beings quite misunderstood by humans. They certainly do exist here, and in other dimensions of being, and meeting them face to face makes much this world says about religion and spirituality of little consequence. It's what we do for ourselves, and then for each other, that matters.
It's only when we let go of distinctions, differences, needs and dependencies upon systems and cultures which fail us time and time again, and move beyond them into where those we call angels walk, that we'll be truly free. And just as importantly, second guessing where that might be stops us getting there...
Without wishing to define how anyone else percieves their life, or what their soul/mind/body feels, may I suggest that faith is belief in something not seen or experienced, as if it's experienced, there is no more need for faith, as it's become knowledge. Beliefs (as faith) can be upset, disproved, or no longer believed in, which is why faith fails people. Knowledge by experience is far more valuable and permanent.
I've met angels, and they are not religious, not christian, not jewish, not androgenous, not messengers between any god and us, but beings quite misunderstood by humans. They certainly do exist here, and in other dimensions of being, and meeting them face to face makes much this world says about religion and spirituality of little consequence. It's what we do for ourselves, and then for each other, that matters.
It's only when we let go of distinctions, differences, needs and dependencies upon systems and cultures which fail us time and time again, and move beyond them into where those we call angels walk, that we'll be truly free. And just as importantly, second guessing where that might be stops us getting there...
Not the center of the Universe
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
The way I see it, you're either scientific in your thinking or you aren't.
Off (or on?) topic thing that just happend to me 15 minutes ago. A friend who is currently the secretary for my regular Saturday N.A. meeting just phoned. He has to put down his oldest bull dog this afternoon and called to ask me to fill in for him. I know what he is going through and it pleases me greatly to be able to do that one small thing for him so he can do what he has to do. Why?
One Love, One Heart,
Tony
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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Originally Posted by Cathy31
Champion where on earth did you get that statistic from?? That's ridiculous! Everyone knows...or should know...that AA statistics and recovery statistics in general are notoriously false and wrong! When last was there a census on this, anyway!
How's your way working for you, btw?
If it's working, super!
How's your way working for you, btw?
If it's working, super!
Why do you say ridiculous? You think it's high or low?
If you don't have any statistics, why would you think that it's ridiculous? I don't understand...
'My way' is going really well so far. That's the thing about quitting; it's either 100% working, or 100% not working!!
Adam
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OK, the 5% figure is from "Comments on A. A.'s Triennial Surveys" which you'll need to contact AA to get a copy of.
If you find this figure hard to believe (no reason why you should, but stil...) then consider for a moment the make-up of an average AA meeting. There should (if AA success rates are high/higher) be a high number of attendees who have 10s of years of sobriety (or even 5+) years, since (as we know) AA tells us that we can never be cured of the 'disease'.
Where do all these people go?
Why are there always a bunch of weekers, fewer 6-monthers, fewer still year +-ers, and only the odd person with 10 years plus?
They haven't got better! They can't get better since there's no cure.
So where are they?
If you find this figure hard to believe (no reason why you should, but stil...) then consider for a moment the make-up of an average AA meeting. There should (if AA success rates are high/higher) be a high number of attendees who have 10s of years of sobriety (or even 5+) years, since (as we know) AA tells us that we can never be cured of the 'disease'.
Where do all these people go?
Why are there always a bunch of weekers, fewer 6-monthers, fewer still year +-ers, and only the odd person with 10 years plus?
They haven't got better! They can't get better since there's no cure.
So where are they?
Not the center of the Universe
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orchard Lake, Michigan
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Here's a not completely verified statistic:
99% of the threads on this board that last long enough eventually get around to the A.A. VS "something else" debate AND IT NEVER GETS RESOLVED.
Movie Quote:
99% of the threads on this board that last long enough eventually get around to the A.A. VS "something else" debate AND IT NEVER GETS RESOLVED.
Movie Quote:
Gordie: Wagon Train's a really cool show, but have you ever noticed they don't really get anywhere? They just keep on wagon-training.
"Stand By Me" 1986
Tony
"Stand By Me" 1986
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Originally Posted by findingout
99% of the threads on this board that last long enough eventually get around to the A.A. VS "something else" debate
The day that somebody tries to FORCE me to go to AA will be the day I attack it, until then...different strokes for different folks.
I don't enjoy NASCAR or F1 racing either, but I haven't started a campaign to ban 'em...yet.
Adam
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