So it DOES go down as well as up...
1 bite&all resistance crumbles
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: IRELAND
Posts: 2,208
Champion
How many meetings have you been to in your life (any?)...my home group consists of 35-ish people...myself and 3 others are under 1 year. Everyone else is between about 10 and 34 years sober. I have never ever been to a meeting in Ireland/UK/South Africa that has the make up you describe.
I have ALWAYS since December when I joined been the shortest serving/sober AA member at any AA meeting I have gone to in 3 different countries.
What you describe is totally foreign to me.
The 'stats' are ridiculous because they do not mirror real life, and as you said yourself, they were taken once i isolation!? Please.
Have a lovely Saturday, I am now going to play tennis, and then go to a meeting, it's one of my favourites, the Sat night on, it's a gorgeous day over here.
Good luck, hope your way keeps working, I know mine will!
Cathy31
x
How many meetings have you been to in your life (any?)...my home group consists of 35-ish people...myself and 3 others are under 1 year. Everyone else is between about 10 and 34 years sober. I have never ever been to a meeting in Ireland/UK/South Africa that has the make up you describe.
I have ALWAYS since December when I joined been the shortest serving/sober AA member at any AA meeting I have gone to in 3 different countries.
What you describe is totally foreign to me.
The 'stats' are ridiculous because they do not mirror real life, and as you said yourself, they were taken once i isolation!? Please.
Have a lovely Saturday, I am now going to play tennis, and then go to a meeting, it's one of my favourites, the Sat night on, it's a gorgeous day over here.
Good luck, hope your way keeps working, I know mine will!
Cathy31
x
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ft. Collins CO.
Posts: 81
Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
The 'success' rates are 5% with AA and 5% without, so...well...different strokes and all that!
I'd actually heard this statistic before as well. I did some back researching and here's an interesting tid-bit for all of you. Some studies done with LSD used as a treatment for alcoholism back in the 50's (when it was legal and still being studied for medicinal usage) produced success rates as high as 50% in some studies.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ft. Collins CO.
Posts: 81
Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
I have nothing against it; each to their own. I just don't see any significant difference between faith in santa/the mystic powers of the stars/magic-elves and faith in Jesus and God or whoever...
The way I see it, you're either scientific in your thinking or you aren't.
The way I see it, you're either scientific in your thinking or you aren't.
The irony I find behind most athiests is that as much as they belittle people for being religious, spiritual, whatever; they themselves have become just as closed minded and dangerous as the fundamentalists.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by SPF 77
The irony I find behind most athiests is that as much as they belittle people for being religious, spiritual, whatever; they themselves have become just as closed minded and dangerous as the fundamentalists.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by Cathy31
The 'stats' are ridiculous because they do not mirror real life, and as you said yourself, they were taken once i isolation!? Please.
As I said, if it's something that interests you then you need only to contact AA and ask for figures.
Don't shoot the messenger!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
but what is knowledge without evidence?
No one else's.
Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
Perhaps, but we're getting into the realms of semantics.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by Cathy31
Champion
How many meetings have you been to in your life (any?)...my home group consists of 35-ish people...myself and 3 others are under 1 year. Everyone else is between about 10 and 34 years sober.
How many meetings have you been to in your life (any?)...my home group consists of 35-ish people...myself and 3 others are under 1 year. Everyone else is between about 10 and 34 years sober.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by DangerousDan
One's faith.
No one else's.
That sometimes happens when two or more imperfect human beings get together for the purpose of communicating
No one else's.
That sometimes happens when two or more imperfect human beings get together for the purpose of communicating
Paused
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5,093
My opinion : the only truly happy serene and sober alcoholics I have ever come across here and in real life, whose way of life I would want to emulate are those in AA. Simple. It works. If you work it.
Faith. Scientific fact or fiction? Go with your heart on that one. We all feel emotions. I don't need to read stats or definitions to know how I feel in my heart. My heart and soul will determine my beliefs, my spirituality.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ft. Collins CO.
Posts: 81
Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
Which atheists would you describe as dangerous?
As for ones I have known personally, well like any other group of people you will have a mixture of personality types, but some of them are quite violent.
However much as I dont consider myself very religious, and am personally very secular...I do think religion does alot of good for alot of people. And I do think its interesting that as Christianity has declined in the Western World, we are seeing a rise in violent crimes. It is the promise of going to a good afterlife which keeps many people from commiting violent crimes against others...would you not agree?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by SPF 77
Well for starters Champion, since you have mentioned history in previous posts lets talk about Hitler and Stalin. Two of the most brutal dictators of the past two centuries. Both were atheists.
You're kidding, right?
From the man himself:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
Originally Posted by SPF 77
It is the promise of going to a good afterlife which keeps many people from committing violent crimes against others...would you not agree?
I am an atheist, and I am unlikely to commit a violent crime since I consider violent crime to be morally unacceptable; is would thus be illogical for me to assume that atheism is to blame for a rise in violent crime.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by 2dayzmuse
This is something I have taken note of over the last year. It appears to me the one's that are willing to grow spirituality don't have to white knuckle it.
There is a mountian in North Wales called Snowdon; the view from the top is a truly humbling thing to behold. There are two ways to experience the view; climbing or taking the mountain-train.
I have never taken the train, and I would advise anybody (if they are fit enough) to climb rather than taking the train. The experience is (I believe) far greater for the hardship and effort of the climb.
Given the choice between taking the train and not seeing the view, I'll take the train, but as long as I can climb, I'll climb.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
As I said previously, I thought AA was "spiritual" and then they told me how God works...well, the big books does, anyhow...
...and that God is a Christian one - one who encourages guilt, and morality....
Which to me is nonesense...
...and that God is a Christian one - one who encourages guilt, and morality....
Which to me is nonesense...
1 bite&all resistance crumbles
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: IRELAND
Posts: 2,208
Idiotic
Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
That's a zero % success rate for the last ten years (or nine years if you consider those with less than one year to be succesful). That's worse than the 5% firgure...
You should go to a meeting, and then continue the discussion if you wish, it seems a bit silly contempt prior to investigation, yes!.
Anyway, I wish you well!
Cathy31
x
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Millwallj
As I said previously, I thought AA was "spiritual" and then they told me how God works...well, the big books does, anyhow...
...and that God is a Christian one - one who encourages guilt, and morality....
Which to me is nonesense...
...and that God is a Christian one - one who encourages guilt, and morality....
Which to me is nonesense...
The book is a book, written in the time it was written, reflecting the understanding of its authors on various topics. The book is meant to be suggestive, as you well know. And if, for some reason, I can't, or will not, look past the subjective of the book, then I'll probably have a hard time taking the suggestions contained in it.
AA can't tell you how god works, much less that god is christian.
However, individual members of AA will try to do so.
Let them blend in with the rest of the background noise Mill.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
You do have a point Dan. I think the fundementalist in AA (and thats what they are) are not aware of the complexity of experience...the quiet thoughts of each individual, the moments of awareness. Logic is not there strong point, and they refuse to change.
My ultra sensitivity, and the extreme polars in my own thought processes made me and AA "chalk and cheese". Incompatible.
But as you say - and what I would continue to say anyone interested in AA - is that there is a huge amount of beauty, humanity, and spirituality in those rooms.
But its just not for me - and the message I got, and the way I see the core of AA will never be right for me, ever. Just not for me. Pride? Maybe.
My ultra sensitivity, and the extreme polars in my own thought processes made me and AA "chalk and cheese". Incompatible.
But as you say - and what I would continue to say anyone interested in AA - is that there is a huge amount of beauty, humanity, and spirituality in those rooms.
But its just not for me - and the message I got, and the way I see the core of AA will never be right for me, ever. Just not for me. Pride? Maybe.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
Originally Posted by 2dayzmuse
I absolutely agree. I've seen many struggle with their sobriety or lack there of, along with their struggle with God and spirituality. Agree or disagree. This is something I have taken note of over the last year. It appears to me the one's that are willing to grow spirituality don't have to white knuckle it. Sobriety gradually builds into ease and peace of mind.
Faith. Scientific fact or fiction? Go with your heart on that one. We all feel emotions. I don't need to read stats or definitions to know how I feel in my heart. My heart and soul will determine my beliefs, my spirituality.
Faith. Scientific fact or fiction? Go with your heart on that one. We all feel emotions. I don't need to read stats or definitions to know how I feel in my heart. My heart and soul will determine my beliefs, my spirituality.
PSchological capitalisim me thinks. Those who work hardest get better, those who dont deserve it.
I say socialisim for all! Sod all this phoney individualisim...he he he
Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by Cathy31
Not sure about the stats - my home group is pretty representative,
Accepting that you're right, that means that AA has an average success rate of 0% over the last 9 years.
and while certainly people come in and out, it's quite rare, most stick with it. Why wouldn't they it's such a great program! For life!
You should go to a meeting, and then continue the discussion if you wish, it seems a bit silly contempt prior to investigation, yes!
I have attended AA (in several regions) and found it uniformly 'not to my taste'.
As I said earlier; while I can climb, I'll climb.
Adam
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ft. Collins CO.
Posts: 81
Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
Hitler was an atheist?
No, I think that the growth of materialism, capitalism and corporate power combined with the loss of effective socialist local and global influence is predominantly to blame.
I am an atheist, and I am unlikely to commit a violent crime since I consider violent crime to be morally unacceptable; is would thus be illogical for me to assume that atheism is to blame for a rise in violent crime.
No, I think that the growth of materialism, capitalism and corporate power combined with the loss of effective socialist local and global influence is predominantly to blame.
I am an atheist, and I am unlikely to commit a violent crime since I consider violent crime to be morally unacceptable; is would thus be illogical for me to assume that atheism is to blame for a rise in violent crime.
The rise of capitalism might explain a rise in violent crime between the classes, but you are forgetting that the majority of violent crimes (at least here) are commited within the classes to others of the same class. Remember that Marx himself proclaimed that socialism represented a utopia dreamed of by the comfortable middle class. Which is why he and Engles favored communism as it was more action oriented (Communist Manifesto).
As for your second paragraph here, you are commiting the cardianal sin of claiming "what I believe must be the norm cause I believe it". Not everybody is shall I say observant with moral principles.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
