So it DOES go down as well as up...
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[QUOTE=ChampionRabbit]Hitler was an atheist?
You're kidding, right?
From the man himself:
Hitler was many things (vegetarian, dog-lover, wearer of a nasty moustache, insane and murderous dictator) but an atheist he was not. He wasn't a Christian, but he was a believer in God and all things spiritual. In fact (going back to the earlier subject) spiritualist might like to consider Hitlers spirituality!!
QUOTE]
Well you dont name a source for that quote from him...so until then I will remain skeptical Yet you say he was a believer in God. Your own statement makes it seem that he believed in the Judeo-Christian God. That's why he converted those Cathedrals and Churchs into Pagan temples eh . The Nazi's were obsessed with Pagan symbols and Norse Mythology, but not so much for the "spiritual" side to these ideologies.
You're kidding, right?
From the man himself:
Hitler was many things (vegetarian, dog-lover, wearer of a nasty moustache, insane and murderous dictator) but an atheist he was not. He wasn't a Christian, but he was a believer in God and all things spiritual. In fact (going back to the earlier subject) spiritualist might like to consider Hitlers spirituality!!
QUOTE]
Well you dont name a source for that quote from him...so until then I will remain skeptical
Yet you say he was a believer in God. Your own statement makes it seem that he believed in the Judeo-Christian God. That's why he converted those Cathedrals and Churchs into Pagan temples eh . The Nazi's were obsessed with Pagan symbols and Norse Mythology, but not so much for the "spiritual" side to these ideologies.
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Perhaps tomorrow I won't feel this way, but I am so close to dumping my job and walking away into the world with nothing but a few things in a backpack. Doubt I'd ever do it though - I like to stay clean and fed! Ah, bleuch. Life.[/QUOTE]
When I first quit drinking, the first thoughts that came into my head were to get up and go. Move away, take my wife, leave my job and start over someplace where noone knows me.
I have been told by several people I know in recovery that making huge life changes soon after entering recovery is not necessarly a good idea, so I am going to ride the wave and see where I land for a little while.
My plan is to wait six months to a year and stay sober and see how I feel. If at that time I still feel like moving on -- it will be see ye later New York and my family and I will try something new.
I don't have enough experence with all of this to offer you any advice. I'm only sharing my plan. Ultimatly you will figure out what is best for you, and only you know what will make you happy. If hitting the road will make you happy, and you are 100% sure of that -- go for it!!! Either way I hope you figure things out.
Good Luck!!!
When I first quit drinking, the first thoughts that came into my head were to get up and go. Move away, take my wife, leave my job and start over someplace where noone knows me.
I have been told by several people I know in recovery that making huge life changes soon after entering recovery is not necessarly a good idea, so I am going to ride the wave and see where I land for a little while.
My plan is to wait six months to a year and stay sober and see how I feel. If at that time I still feel like moving on -- it will be see ye later New York and my family and I will try something new.
I don't have enough experence with all of this to offer you any advice. I'm only sharing my plan. Ultimatly you will figure out what is best for you, and only you know what will make you happy. If hitting the road will make you happy, and you are 100% sure of that -- go for it!!! Either way I hope you figure things out.
Good Luck!!!
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by Cathy31
Champion where on earth did you get that statistic from?? That's ridiculous! Everyone knows...or should know...that AA statistics and recovery statistics in general are notoriously false and wrong! When last was there a census on this, anyway!
How's your way working for you, btw?
If it's working, super!
How's your way working for you, btw?
If it's working, super!
Hi, Cathy-- seems to me we've had this discussion before!
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ad.php?t=50469
Don S
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Originally Posted by SPF 77
I'd actually heard this statistic before as well. I did some back researching and here's an interesting tid-bit for all of you. Some studies done with LSD used as a treatment for alcoholism back in the 50's (when it was legal and still being studied for medicinal usage) produced success rates as high as 50% in some studies.
http://www.maps.org/pipermail/maps_f...ne/004350.html
Don S
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Originally Posted by Don S
Yes, but the side effects were a problem. Nevertheless, Bill W touted it at one time.
http://www.maps.org/pipermail/maps_f...ne/004350.html
Don S
http://www.maps.org/pipermail/maps_f...ne/004350.html
Don S
Thanks for the link
. Another advocate (one I find surprising) was Cary Grant. He used it for dream therapy.
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Originally Posted by SPF 77
Well you don't name a source for that quote from him...so until then I will remain skeptical
Let's backtrack for a second.
You stated that Hitler was an atheist.
I corrected you. Hitler was clearly not an atheist; he believed in God.
I gave you evidence for this by way of a quote from Hitler himself.
The question that begs to be asked is this: since you appear to have very little knowledge of Hitler, why would you claim that he was an atheist, and why do you remain sceptical? What is this belief founded on? Clearly not investigation or historical study...
Anybody who had an even vague interest in modern history would recognise the quote that I used, since it's from one the the last centuries most well-known (if nonsensical) works: Hitler’s "Mein Kampf".
The reason that I didn't provide a source was simply because I wrongly assumed that you (having brought up the subject of Stalin and Hitler) knew a little about them.
Adam
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Originally Posted by SPF 77
The rise of capitalism might explain a rise in violent crime between the classes, but you are forgetting that the majority of violent crimes (at least here) are commited within the classes to others of the same class. Remember that Marx himself proclaimed that socialism represented a utopia dreamed of by the comfortable middle class. Which is why he and Engles favored communism as it was more action oriented (Communist Manifesto).
If one was inclined, one could use the fact that the lower classes are turning on each-other as an excellent example of the fragmentary nature of society under capitalist governments...
As for your second paragraph here, you are commiting the cardianal sin of claiming "what I believe must be the norm cause I believe it". Not everybody is shall I say observant with moral principles.
If I had said "I am not violent and I am an atheist, therefore all atheists are non-violent" then I would be guilty of fallacious argument, but that is not what I said.
I said that since I am a non-violent atheist, it would be illogical of me to assume that atheism inspires acts of violence.
Can you not understand the clear disparity twixt those statements?
I have brown hair, and I cannot roller-skate. Therefore it is illogical of me to assume than people with brown-hair can roller-skate.
Is clearly distinct from:
I have brown hair and I cannot roller-skate. Therefore nobody with brown hair can roller-skate.
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Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Mein kampf is a **** poor attempt to replicate Machiavelli's Prince.
At any rate, violence is born in the mind of an individual.
I wonder how Arthur's doing, by the way
At any rate, violence is born in the mind of an individual.
I wonder how Arthur's doing, by the way
I bet Arthur is doing brilliantly; he seemed like a man who had turned a corner.
Adam
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Originally Posted by SPF 77
The irony I find behind most athiests is that as much as they belittle people for being religious, spiritual, whatever; they themselves have become just as closed minded and dangerous as the fundamentalists.
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Originally Posted by ChampionRabbit
Woah there!
Let's backtrack for a second.
You stated that Hitler was an atheist.
I corrected you. Hitler was clearly not an atheist; he believed in God.
I gave you evidence for this by way of a quote from Hitler himself.
The question that begs to be asked is this: since you appear to have very little knowledge of Hitler, why would you claim that he was an atheist, and why do you remain sceptical? What is this belief founded on? Clearly not investigation or historical study...
Anybody who had an even vague interest in modern history would recognise the quote that I used, since it's from one the the last centuries most well-known (if nonsensical) works: Hitler’s "Mein Kampf".
The reason that I didn't provide a source was simply because I wrongly assumed that you (having brought up the subject of Stalin and Hitler) knew a little about them.
Adam
Let's backtrack for a second.
You stated that Hitler was an atheist.
I corrected you. Hitler was clearly not an atheist; he believed in God.
I gave you evidence for this by way of a quote from Hitler himself.
The question that begs to be asked is this: since you appear to have very little knowledge of Hitler, why would you claim that he was an atheist, and why do you remain sceptical? What is this belief founded on? Clearly not investigation or historical study...
Anybody who had an even vague interest in modern history would recognise the quote that I used, since it's from one the the last centuries most well-known (if nonsensical) works: Hitler’s "Mein Kampf".
The reason that I didn't provide a source was simply because I wrongly assumed that you (having brought up the subject of Stalin and Hitler) knew a little about them.
Adam
Alright I will give you that on Hitler...you are right, at least he claimed he was a christian, though his "bastardization" of the religion leaves me to question just how christian he really was. The guy was a madman and said alot of things. Perhaps Pol Pot would have been a better example for me to use instead of Hitler as he afterall destroyed all remanants of religion in his country while his brutal regime reigned.
I guess me being a masters student at a prestigous university (not CSU in case your wondering) means I dont know anything
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History has demonstrated that dictatorship and ideology make a bad combination. It doesn't make much difference whether it's a religious ideology or some other kind. When there are no checks and balances, almost anything can be justified and implemented in the name of the cause.
Don S
Don S
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Originally Posted by Millwallj
Gibberish.
Yes, but you dont know every single athiest out there do you? I am not saying all athiests are bad, far from it. In fact, I use to be one myself believe it or not.
That post I made was just an observation from people I know personally. Those who claim themselves athiest and those who are fundamentalist, in my experience they have been the more violent people I have known that's all I'm saying.
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Perhaps that says more about your circle of acquaintances than about either group as a whole. And we tend to select our acquaintances, at least to the degree that we get to know them well enough to learn their religious viewpoints. So I guess your observation tells us more about you than about any innate characteristic of atheists or fundamentalists.
Don S
Don S
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Originally Posted by Don S
History has demonstrated that dictatorship and ideology make a bad combination. It doesn't make much difference whether it's a religious ideology or some other kind. When there are no checks and balances, almost anything can be justified and implemented in the name of the cause.
Don S
Don S
Amen Don.
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Originally Posted by Don S
Perhaps that says more about your circle of acquaintances than about either group as a whole. And we tend to select our acquaintances, at least to the degree that we get to know them well enough to learn their religious viewpoints. So I guess your observation tells us more about you than about any innate characteristic of atheists or fundamentalists.
Don S
Don S
LOL Don, touche. Well see I am not judging either group as a whole I was merely making an observation of people I know. I know many people of many different viewpoints, some are very pacifist, some not so quite. However many of the "not so quite" I wouldn't call my circle of close acquanitances (you can't choose your co-workers, class-mates, etc.).
I just can't stand how one side always claims the other is bad and vice/versa. Its all about individuals -at least that's how I look at it.
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I've interacted with a lot of folks on these forums from diverse 'religious' backgrounds, and found them all to be interesting people who will come to recognize our common humanity and shared values if we give each other enough time.
(Usually...
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...0&page=1&pp=20)
Like you, I'm in a university town so I also understand the rarefied atmosphere that entails.
An interesting fact is that, while most Americans consider themselves religious, only about 8% are 'born again evangelical' and only about 8% are 'nothing' (1 - 2% atheist). Yet, most of the cultural debates are framed by those two groups.
Don S
(Usually...
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...0&page=1&pp=20)
Like you, I'm in a university town so I also understand the rarefied atmosphere that entails.
An interesting fact is that, while most Americans consider themselves religious, only about 8% are 'born again evangelical' and only about 8% are 'nothing' (1 - 2% atheist). Yet, most of the cultural debates are framed by those two groups.
Don S
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Originally Posted by Don S
An interesting fact is that, while most Americans consider themselves religious, only about 8% are 'born again evangelical' and only about 8% are 'nothing' (1 - 2% atheist). Yet, most of the cultural debates are framed by those two groups.
Don S
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Originally Posted by Don S
I've interacted with a lot of folks on these forums from diverse 'religious' backgrounds, and found them all to be interesting people who will come to recognize our common humanity and shared values if we give each other enough time.
Don S
Don S
Well put.
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