What's the deal with AA?
Off Topic Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
There never has been any need of show lack of personal responsibility in order to define something as a disease. Diabetes can be caused by eating too much sugar, heart conditions from diet, obesity from over eating - not to mention the influence our lifestyle choices make to many common illnesses.
We can argue till the cows come home whether drinking is a simple choice or not but it neither defends nor denies whether alcoholism is classed as a disease.
Personally - and this is very much an opinion, I think alcohol as a chemical is simply more addictive to some people than to others. I also think longterm abuse of alcohol can increase it's addictive qualities within individuals. Throughout that process I think the individuals choices can and do effect the outcome.
I believe it is a disease - but by the dictionary definition of disease which neither precludes free will nor treatment by changing behaviour.
I think it should be classified as a disease because hopefully in years to come that in itself will assist funding for research, human rights, (like not getting the sack for getting treatment), and better understanding. I don't think it should be classified as a disease in order to make people feel powerless, sell the idea of god, or to excuse
We can argue till the cows come home whether drinking is a simple choice or not but it neither defends nor denies whether alcoholism is classed as a disease.
Personally - and this is very much an opinion, I think alcohol as a chemical is simply more addictive to some people than to others. I also think longterm abuse of alcohol can increase it's addictive qualities within individuals. Throughout that process I think the individuals choices can and do effect the outcome.
I believe it is a disease - but by the dictionary definition of disease which neither precludes free will nor treatment by changing behaviour.
I think it should be classified as a disease because hopefully in years to come that in itself will assist funding for research, human rights, (like not getting the sack for getting treatment), and better understanding. I don't think it should be classified as a disease in order to make people feel powerless, sell the idea of god, or to excuse
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Netaholism, nicotinisholism...
The lexicon just keeps on growing.
Before science discovered the causes of skin cancer, I wonder what the people afflicted by it would refer to it as...
At any rate, I ask myself what's more important; knowing for sure that alcoholism is a disease, or simply being grateful that the alcoholics of my generation have more choices than those who came before me, when time comes to ask for help and support.
The lexicon just keeps on growing.
Before science discovered the causes of skin cancer, I wonder what the people afflicted by it would refer to it as...
At any rate, I ask myself what's more important; knowing for sure that alcoholism is a disease, or simply being grateful that the alcoholics of my generation have more choices than those who came before me, when time comes to ask for help and support.
Future Philanthropist
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 233
Look, y'all got this whole thing outta proportion.
AA works for those who want it to work, and work at it. Alternatives such as unhooked, rational and just not drinking have also worked for those who want them to work, and work at them. The reason courts use AA is b/c it's been my observation from different meetings that majority of members have at least something in common with the courts, and new members with the court system can seek out advice.
Who really cares if it's a disease, physical, social or otherwise? Or even better, why should one care what I think it is, and why should I care what you think it is. I'll manage my own sobriety, thank you. If it'll help me not drink to believe alcohol will turn me into Carrot Top, I'll buy that.
The point is that we, generally, have reached a point here at SR where we do not consider ourselves capable of consuming alcohol on a 'normal' basis. I attend AA, and literally "take what I want" which is the First Step, and an awful lot of experiences of others to avoid re-inventing the wheel learning to live without alcohol. If other AA members dont agree with my plan, that's thier problem, not mine. And likewise if I dont agree with thier plan. I have yet to meet a member who has chastised me for not reading the Big Book, or gotten a sponsor, or accepted my HP. There is only one requirement, and it isn't working the steps or doing social work.
I have many friends who have been in AA anywhere from 3 to 20 years. I have never, ever heard a single one tell me that I must do anything, other than not drink today. And if you feel that you can drink, then you dont feel you are an alcoholic, then why do you care what AA or it's members *choose* to do or believe?
Full disclosure, I also do SOS. I'm neither pro/anti AA or pro/anti SOS, I'm pro my sobriety. Anything other than that is just semantics, IMO.
AA works for those who want it to work, and work at it. Alternatives such as unhooked, rational and just not drinking have also worked for those who want them to work, and work at them. The reason courts use AA is b/c it's been my observation from different meetings that majority of members have at least something in common with the courts, and new members with the court system can seek out advice.
Who really cares if it's a disease, physical, social or otherwise? Or even better, why should one care what I think it is, and why should I care what you think it is. I'll manage my own sobriety, thank you. If it'll help me not drink to believe alcohol will turn me into Carrot Top, I'll buy that.
The point is that we, generally, have reached a point here at SR where we do not consider ourselves capable of consuming alcohol on a 'normal' basis. I attend AA, and literally "take what I want" which is the First Step, and an awful lot of experiences of others to avoid re-inventing the wheel learning to live without alcohol. If other AA members dont agree with my plan, that's thier problem, not mine. And likewise if I dont agree with thier plan. I have yet to meet a member who has chastised me for not reading the Big Book, or gotten a sponsor, or accepted my HP. There is only one requirement, and it isn't working the steps or doing social work.
I have many friends who have been in AA anywhere from 3 to 20 years. I have never, ever heard a single one tell me that I must do anything, other than not drink today. And if you feel that you can drink, then you dont feel you are an alcoholic, then why do you care what AA or it's members *choose* to do or believe?
Full disclosure, I also do SOS. I'm neither pro/anti AA or pro/anti SOS, I'm pro my sobriety. Anything other than that is just semantics, IMO.
Not all better, getting better
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Beautiful Inner Banks of NC
Posts: 1,702
Interesting thread!! I've posted my opinions on this topic many times and the fact that I host the Secular Recovery meeting (Wed nites 8PM ET, Plug, Plug, Plug!!! 
) probably reveals my position!!! But I just wanted to say that it is great to see that this thread has existed in "polite discussion" for almost 12 hours now!! Seriously I think that is great. We all have different opinions about what works, and I honestly think it basically just depends on the belief system of the individual mostly. Anyway, thanks for the discussion and for keeping it civil.
) probably reveals my position!!! But I just wanted to say that it is great to see that this thread has existed in "polite discussion" for almost 12 hours now!! Seriously I think that is great. We all have different opinions about what works, and I honestly think it basically just depends on the belief system of the individual mostly. Anyway, thanks for the discussion and for keeping it civil.
Not the center of the Universe
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orchard Lake, Michigan
Posts: 974
Originally Posted by Don S
...except the courts.
Over 90% of treatment programs are based on the 12 Step model, and their efficacy rate among people forced into them is very low. It would probably be more effective from society's standpoint to just have them go through probation, fines, and/or incarceration than to have them shunted off into programs which haven't been shown to be effective for people who aren't there voluntarily.
Over 90% of treatment programs are based on the 12 Step model, and their efficacy rate among people forced into them is very low. It would probably be more effective from society's standpoint to just have them go through probation, fines, and/or incarceration than to have them shunted off into programs which haven't been shown to be effective for people who aren't there voluntarily.
What we are seeing at one of my meetings is the court ordering people to attend A.A. for just about any case where alcohol can be tied in by the thinnest of threads. Some of these people do not have a drinking problem and would be much better served by an anger management program but there are no free anger management programs that provide the no cost to the court method of verifying attendance. I think these are the people that are the real burden on A.A. because A.A. is a program that specifically addresses addiction, not anger management and not other crimes.
I have seen alcoholics find serenity, joy and peace in A.A. even though they had no desire to attend A.A. and would not have done so had they not been ordered by the courts. That, in my opinion, is a good thing.
One Love, One Heart,
Tony
Paused
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5,093
Great points made on both sides as usual. But then again there usually are when we dissect this matter again and again.
Disease, allergy, obssesion, complusion...whatever?. It doesn't really matter to me. All I know is I don't do well when I drink. I don't do well at all. Therefore I look for a way to quit and stay quit. I couldn't do it on my own.
I do intend to abstain from alcohol. Maybe the difference between me and others who don't is... I've been to the depths of h*ll brought on by alcohol. Until you've been there, you probably can't understand why we must abstain. I don't have any intentions of ever going back again.
I have experienced compulsive, obsessive behavior from playing video games before. It is fun and can become addictive. Zelda and Ganondorf. Forget about getting anything accomplished when I start playing that. Leave me alone. Don't bug me. I'm at level 4 beating the one-eyed crab. My arrows are pinging. Brought me to the depths of h*ll? Not even close. Comparing the two is like a matchstick to a nuclear blast.
I'm all for any rational, secular, self-will, 12 step, hypnotic, nick-nack-patti-wack program available, as long as it works. I myself go to AA meetings. It has helped this hopeless drunk stay sober the longest I've ever been before. The spiritual aspect of it I look upon as a bonus. I didn't know what I was missing out on. I had know idea life could be this way. Today, I still wouldn't know if I hadn't had an openmind, the desire and the willingness to get sober. Heck, I'm feeling so openminded, I want to try some of the other recovery programs out there.
Let me grab the phone book and thumb through the yellow pages for meetings in my area.
Smart...No
Rational Recovery...No
LifeRing...No
Woman for Sobriety...No
SOS...No
Alcoholics Anonymous...Yes
Huh? So there you have it. Some of us have to settle for what is available and make it work. And you know what else? Thank God it is available and it does work. My guess is this may have something to do with AA and the court system. I don't know. Just a thought. I'll follow that up with To each his own.
Disease, allergy, obssesion, complusion...whatever?. It doesn't really matter to me. All I know is I don't do well when I drink. I don't do well at all. Therefore I look for a way to quit and stay quit. I couldn't do it on my own.
I do intend to abstain from alcohol. Maybe the difference between me and others who don't is... I've been to the depths of h*ll brought on by alcohol. Until you've been there, you probably can't understand why we must abstain. I don't have any intentions of ever going back again.
I have experienced compulsive, obsessive behavior from playing video games before. It is fun and can become addictive. Zelda and Ganondorf. Forget about getting anything accomplished when I start playing that. Leave me alone. Don't bug me. I'm at level 4 beating the one-eyed crab. My arrows are pinging. Brought me to the depths of h*ll? Not even close. Comparing the two is like a matchstick to a nuclear blast.
I'm all for any rational, secular, self-will, 12 step, hypnotic, nick-nack-patti-wack program available, as long as it works. I myself go to AA meetings. It has helped this hopeless drunk stay sober the longest I've ever been before. The spiritual aspect of it I look upon as a bonus. I didn't know what I was missing out on. I had know idea life could be this way. Today, I still wouldn't know if I hadn't had an openmind, the desire and the willingness to get sober. Heck, I'm feeling so openminded, I want to try some of the other recovery programs out there.
Let me grab the phone book and thumb through the yellow pages for meetings in my area.
Smart...No
Rational Recovery...No
LifeRing...No
Woman for Sobriety...No
SOS...No
Alcoholics Anonymous...Yes
Huh? So there you have it. Some of us have to settle for what is available and make it work. And you know what else? Thank God it is available and it does work. My guess is this may have something to do with AA and the court system. I don't know. Just a thought. I'll follow that up with To each his own.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 40
Wowzas
I start a thread, go to sleep, and wake up to three pages - good on you all!
As I read through all the posts, there were lots of things I felt I wanted to comment on - and all of them were positive remarks. I agree with one poster who said that this has been a non-confrontational open discussion on a topic that when I was at AA I felt I couldn't bring up for fear of being bashed down. In fact, my "successful, binge drinking" friend has tried to bring up this topic at his meetings (he goes three times a week) and has been bashed down - of course politely. However, I can see how, if you are in AA, you shouldn't spend the meeting time trying to question the particular system.
Also, I agree 100% that whatever... what did the poster say... "nick-nack-patty-wack" system that works is GREAT. My original post was to try and find some alternatives to the spiritually overwhelming (for me, of course - just my opinion!) AA meetings. When one of the main precepts of a group is to give up your life to a higher power... well... just lost me there.
Thanks again for the links to other groups. And I'd love to check out the Wednesday chat meeting, but 8pm over there is 10am here (depending on where this board is hosted from) and I'm still in bed usually - don't start work until 3pm, so I sleep from 4am to noon every day. - Might there be a forum where people discuss sobriety in that vein around here somewhere?
My "successful friend": He went from drinking every morning, lunch, and evening, driving his car (in Osaka - which is crazy - might as well be Iraq), cheating on his wife, lying to his wife, and generally making a mess of not only his own life, but of the lives of those around him TO living a stable life and enjoying a beer here and there and, as I said, on average once a month going out for more than a couple. I see his life change as a very positive thing. Not sure why you're scratching your head on that one. He learned to understand his addiction and control it.
Kind of sorry I brought up the disease controversy - I agree with most of you that it really doesn't matter - now that I have been reminded of the arguments and counter-arguments for and against. The most important thing is to get the help that you need, not get bogged down in symantics.
Back to Super Mario 64 - DON'T BUG ME - I'm on my 30th star!
Peace,
-wordtank
As I read through all the posts, there were lots of things I felt I wanted to comment on - and all of them were positive remarks. I agree with one poster who said that this has been a non-confrontational open discussion on a topic that when I was at AA I felt I couldn't bring up for fear of being bashed down. In fact, my "successful, binge drinking" friend has tried to bring up this topic at his meetings (he goes three times a week) and has been bashed down - of course politely. However, I can see how, if you are in AA, you shouldn't spend the meeting time trying to question the particular system.
Also, I agree 100% that whatever... what did the poster say... "nick-nack-patty-wack" system that works is GREAT. My original post was to try and find some alternatives to the spiritually overwhelming (for me, of course - just my opinion!) AA meetings. When one of the main precepts of a group is to give up your life to a higher power... well... just lost me there.
Thanks again for the links to other groups. And I'd love to check out the Wednesday chat meeting, but 8pm over there is 10am here (depending on where this board is hosted from) and I'm still in bed usually - don't start work until 3pm, so I sleep from 4am to noon every day. - Might there be a forum where people discuss sobriety in that vein around here somewhere?
My "successful friend": He went from drinking every morning, lunch, and evening, driving his car (in Osaka - which is crazy - might as well be Iraq), cheating on his wife, lying to his wife, and generally making a mess of not only his own life, but of the lives of those around him TO living a stable life and enjoying a beer here and there and, as I said, on average once a month going out for more than a couple. I see his life change as a very positive thing. Not sure why you're scratching your head on that one. He learned to understand his addiction and control it.
Kind of sorry I brought up the disease controversy - I agree with most of you that it really doesn't matter - now that I have been reminded of the arguments and counter-arguments for and against. The most important thing is to get the help that you need, not get bogged down in symantics.
Back to Super Mario 64 - DON'T BUG ME - I'm on my 30th star!
Peace,
-wordtank
Paused
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5,093
I don't want to try to speak for others, but I think the head scratching comes from the fact that a real alcoholic, such as myself, can't control my addiction, affliction...whatever it is. It just can't happen. My last attempt at trying to contol my drinking turned into a nine day binge of craziness and out of control behavior. It still boggles my mind. I'm happy your friend is doing better. Who wouldn't be happy? I just know and understand that if I drink one drink it will turn into 100. I don't know why. It just is.
Hey, you can hop into the chat room and have discussions anytime you can find a willing participant. There are online AA meetings. They usually don't get as spiritually overwhelming as some f2f ones can. I know how you feel about that. I understand fully. I felt the same way when I first started going to AA. I got past it. I needed to get sober and was willing to put up with it until I finally got it. Again...I discovered the spiritual aspect of it a bonus. It wasn't what I was looking for at all. But luckily... it found me. I'm no holy roller by any means, but I can grow and become a better person. You know what I mean?
So...you must be up to about 50 stars by now?
Hey, you can hop into the chat room and have discussions anytime you can find a willing participant. There are online AA meetings. They usually don't get as spiritually overwhelming as some f2f ones can. I know how you feel about that. I understand fully. I felt the same way when I first started going to AA. I got past it. I needed to get sober and was willing to put up with it until I finally got it. Again...I discovered the spiritual aspect of it a bonus. It wasn't what I was looking for at all. But luckily... it found me. I'm no holy roller by any means, but I can grow and become a better person. You know what I mean?
So...you must be up to about 50 stars by now?
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Let me grab the phone book and thumb through the yellow pages for meetings in my area.
SMART Recovery has meetings in Vancouver, Kirkland, and Seattle:
http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/web/.../face2face.htm
Here's a link to SOS meetings:
http://www.cfiwest.org/sos/find.htm
Here's info about LifeRing meetings:
http://www.unhooked.com/meetings/
Women for Sobriety:
http://groups.msn.com/WomenforSobrie...locations.msnw
RR doesn't have meetings, although Jack Trimpey (the founder) does offer seminars periodically. You can learn most of what you need to know about RR from their web site, IMO.
Don
Paused
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5,093
Thanks Don. As far as I'm concerned, the more tools the better. It can't hurt. It's all about getting and staying sober. If one way doesn't work, find one that does. Different options is a good thing. As long as it works...
Have any new summer recipes you've been cooking up?
Have any new summer recipes you've been cooking up?
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Well, it's been really hot here lately so I've been making my chili with poached chicken breast to keep it lighter, and white beans. Just some cumin seed toasted in the pan, then olive oil and chopped onion and garlic and chili powder and oregano, chopped carrot, broth. Simmer until the carrots are tender. Then add the chopped chicken and cooked beans and a little tomato paste and simmer half an hour or so, until it all thickens. Stir in some chopped jalapenos and corn at the end and serve with quesadillas.
If it doesn't stop getting over 100 every day pretty soon, we're either going straight to salads or heading to the coast. Or both.
Don S
If it doesn't stop getting over 100 every day pretty soon, we're either going straight to salads or heading to the coast. Or both.
Don S
Paused
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5,093
Sounds wonderful! Ummm...Don. I hope this doesn't lead into another corn, no corn in the chili discussion. 
I myself can go either way. I love salads for dinner. There are so many different ones to enjoy. I bet you have a ton of different recipes.
I myself can go either way. I love salads for dinner. There are so many different ones to enjoy. I bet you have a ton of different recipes.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mesquite TX
Posts: 244
Tank, its real simple, if you want to drink, go drink. If you want to stop AA has a way out that has worked for alot of people. I have a very good friend that just celabrated 10 years last month, she is an athiest.
You seem very well educated, i would suggest that you read the book Alcoholics Anonomyous from front to back. Go to some more meetings and see if you can find someone to be your sponsor and go thru the process, then you can make an informed decision on wheter or not it works.
Thats my opinion, i could be wrong.
chris k
You seem very well educated, i would suggest that you read the book Alcoholics Anonomyous from front to back. Go to some more meetings and see if you can find someone to be your sponsor and go thru the process, then you can make an informed decision on wheter or not it works.
Thats my opinion, i could be wrong.
chris k
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by 2dayzmuse
Sounds wonderful! Ummm...Don. I hope this doesn't lead into another corn, no corn in the chili discussion. I myself can go either way.
I myself can go either way.
Originally Posted by chrisk
i would suggest that you read the book Alcoholics Anonomyous from front to back.
Carol D has recommended a couple that I haven't read that sound useful, too.
Don S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 40
Chris K - nice. Straight and to the point. I respect that.
Here's the difficulty - that's black and white.
To drink or not to drink - that is not the question. At least for me.
To live a happy, balanced life is. Again, at least for me.
I have to admit being sober these past 10 or so days has been nice. After getting through the insomnia and getting back on a more regular schedule (still sleeping from 3am to 11am or so... but that's my schedule), life has seemed a lot more positive. The money I have saved and the fact that my body processes food better is nice. It's something I don't want to lose.
But, like many people who start out on this rode and are faced with the "you must not ever drink again in your life" axiom, a different kind of obsession is stretched out in front of us.
And I live in Japan. In the western world a LOT of people are aware of alcoholism and there is a certain degree of respect that goes with "sorry, I can't drink wine - do you have any grape juice?" Here, however, as I said before, alcoholics are ONLY those people who were close to death and hospitalized for months to detox them and give them the "your liver will explode if you have one more drink" speech.
My future father-in-law would find it downright insulting to refuse to have a beer with him. Even if I explained that I had a drinking problem - if that were the case, he would most likely forbid my marriage, since his idea of "drinking problem" is that my liver is about to explode, etc., etc.
Yes, I could say stuff it all and make my family life a life of walking on eggshells, or I could try to discover a way to curb my habit of overindulging (yes, I am the type that has one and that leads to 6 or 7 - never 100. My body does have a quitting point) and find some way to control myself.
Most people in AA will say this is impossible. If you are an alcoholic, then, whatever your pattern of drinking, you must stop completely in order to be considered a success. You get tokens at AA meetings for your aniversaries and if you have a drink, you are demoted back to day one. One drink will do that. It's a nice reward system, I'll admit, but the devestation that one can feel "spiritually" at having "failed" because of a glass of wine at dinner, and the guilt that is thrown about is a bit obtuse, I think. Again, just my opinion.
Of course, this is part of the recovery process. Relapse is normal in the AA system. In any system. The only way we don't face the possiblity of relapse is to die. I don't particularly want to live the rest of my life worried about something that I SHOULD be able to control, no matter how difficult it may be.
Why would one want to control a habit rather than eliminate it? I am reminded of the phrase, "everything in moderation". If pot were legal, I'd probably smoke it from time to time. However, alcohol is not illegal, nor are cigarettes. Moderation. I have found myself at a point in life where I use these substances TOO much and I want to fix that.
So, a black and white answer is very useful for some, but not for me. I need that grey area. For some, maybe that grey area is 1 mm think. for others, maybe 1 km.
Why aren't there groups that, rather than teach you how to AVOID your habit, teach you how to control it. There are tons of heuristics for abstainance, but I know of very few (or zero, perhaps - I have not read all the links that were provided in depth yet) that are widely taught or promoted for exercizing control.
Again, I want to stress that I am in no way trying to undermine or discourage those of you who's goal is abstinance. That is a choice that I applaude you all for. I'm merely trying to search out my own options by discussing this with people who share the same affliction. And it's not easy to express these ideas openly to a "recovery" group. I hope you'll take my comments as they are - comments.
Again, thanks for reading. I am learning. That is what is important. Perhaps we all are.
29 stars now.
And I think "Tank" better than "wordtank" - thanks.
Tank
Here's the difficulty - that's black and white.
To drink or not to drink - that is not the question. At least for me.
To live a happy, balanced life is. Again, at least for me.
I have to admit being sober these past 10 or so days has been nice. After getting through the insomnia and getting back on a more regular schedule (still sleeping from 3am to 11am or so... but that's my schedule), life has seemed a lot more positive. The money I have saved and the fact that my body processes food better is nice. It's something I don't want to lose.
But, like many people who start out on this rode and are faced with the "you must not ever drink again in your life" axiom, a different kind of obsession is stretched out in front of us.
And I live in Japan. In the western world a LOT of people are aware of alcoholism and there is a certain degree of respect that goes with "sorry, I can't drink wine - do you have any grape juice?" Here, however, as I said before, alcoholics are ONLY those people who were close to death and hospitalized for months to detox them and give them the "your liver will explode if you have one more drink" speech.
My future father-in-law would find it downright insulting to refuse to have a beer with him. Even if I explained that I had a drinking problem - if that were the case, he would most likely forbid my marriage, since his idea of "drinking problem" is that my liver is about to explode, etc., etc.
Yes, I could say stuff it all and make my family life a life of walking on eggshells, or I could try to discover a way to curb my habit of overindulging (yes, I am the type that has one and that leads to 6 or 7 - never 100. My body does have a quitting point) and find some way to control myself.
Most people in AA will say this is impossible. If you are an alcoholic, then, whatever your pattern of drinking, you must stop completely in order to be considered a success. You get tokens at AA meetings for your aniversaries and if you have a drink, you are demoted back to day one. One drink will do that. It's a nice reward system, I'll admit, but the devestation that one can feel "spiritually" at having "failed" because of a glass of wine at dinner, and the guilt that is thrown about is a bit obtuse, I think. Again, just my opinion.
Of course, this is part of the recovery process. Relapse is normal in the AA system. In any system. The only way we don't face the possiblity of relapse is to die. I don't particularly want to live the rest of my life worried about something that I SHOULD be able to control, no matter how difficult it may be.
Why would one want to control a habit rather than eliminate it? I am reminded of the phrase, "everything in moderation". If pot were legal, I'd probably smoke it from time to time. However, alcohol is not illegal, nor are cigarettes. Moderation. I have found myself at a point in life where I use these substances TOO much and I want to fix that.
So, a black and white answer is very useful for some, but not for me. I need that grey area. For some, maybe that grey area is 1 mm think. for others, maybe 1 km.
Why aren't there groups that, rather than teach you how to AVOID your habit, teach you how to control it. There are tons of heuristics for abstainance, but I know of very few (or zero, perhaps - I have not read all the links that were provided in depth yet) that are widely taught or promoted for exercizing control.
Again, I want to stress that I am in no way trying to undermine or discourage those of you who's goal is abstinance. That is a choice that I applaude you all for. I'm merely trying to search out my own options by discussing this with people who share the same affliction. And it's not easy to express these ideas openly to a "recovery" group. I hope you'll take my comments as they are - comments.
Again, thanks for reading. I am learning. That is what is important. Perhaps we all are.
29 stars now.
And I think "Tank" better than "wordtank" - thanks.
Tank
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The Field of Dreams
Posts: 7,249
Great thread Wordtank. 
And this one has stayed civil.When I read the title and saw there were 3 pages I expected to see something different.I read some exellent replies here.Only problem is,I suddenly have a craving for Chilli.
And this one has stayed civil.When I read the title and saw there were 3 pages I expected to see something different.I read some exellent replies here.Only problem is,I suddenly have a craving for Chilli.
Future Philanthropist
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by wordtank
Why would one want to control a habit rather than eliminate it?
From my perspective, not to bore you with personal stories, somelike myself isn't capable of dealing with certain aspects of life without drinking. In this situation, it's a lifestyle. It's a basic fundamental reaction to basic fundamental daily tasks that needs to change rather than just a habit. And these tasks may range from social stresses to simply waking up in the morning. When we talk as 'medicating' we mean that we 'solve' our problems through the use of alcohol. Some to the point of drowning, unable to cope or comprehend a different solution, which AA, Rational and the other programs offer.
A habit comes and goes. Most people I know do not deal with thier stress at work, for example, by picking thier noses or clicking thier teeth. Because picking noses and clicking teeth does nothing to alleviate that stress. Drinking does, albeit temporarily. And while we're temporarily alleviating that stress for 10, 15, 40 years, we never develop those basic skills that normal people do b/c it's easier to trade in growth for relief. I would guess that not many start drinking at 50 years old and becomes alcoholic, b/c by 50 they have those skills, we dont. One of the common themes I hear at meetings is that we are still teenages dealing with things as teenages do since that's when many of us began 'solving' our problems with the bottle. AA's path is to restore that growth using a spiritual model, SOS examines a course of self examination on a behavioural solutions basis for growth, others use different models.
As far as attempting to moderate that instinct we have to alleviate ourselves, it becomes a slippery slope. Some can transvese it, most can't, including myself as I tried for years to no avail. Others have had more luck, though not many in the camp we call alcoholics. I would call them problem drinkers or maybe abusers. They can be fixed, and I know many who have worked out thier issues and drink moderately without a care in the world, even if they occassionally 'light it up'. It's no longer a case of *why* they drink.
Tank, for us the thirst for alcohol overrides both our brain's and our body's quitting points. And therein lies the black and white for us. Everyone else (including hopefully you) is grey. Yes, we all are learning.
Not the center of the Universe
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orchard Lake, Michigan
Posts: 974
wordtank,
This new obsession is why, in my opinion of course, we don't think about next year, next month, next week, or next Friday, no matter which program we chose to assist us in our sobriety. Whenever I would consider a life without alcohol I would immediately jump into the future and think "Well, how am I ever going to make it through Christmas with my family?" What I never seemed to grasp was that what might happen sometime in the future was not a good reason to use today. So far, I have made it through three December 25ths with my family and not had to drink. I suspect that I will make it through the fourth one but I don't worry about it because it's only August 3 and all I have to do is not use today.
One Love, One Heart,
Tony
But, like many people who start out on this rode and are faced with the "you must not ever drink again in your life" axiom, a different kind of obsession is stretched out in front of us.
One Love, One Heart,
Tony
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
