wordtank

Mill, if I read you right, you are in the same boat.

With one exception. And AA people are going to jump down my throat for this.

I have no desire to stop permanently.

Like I said in the original post - obsession is obsession. I don't believe drinking alcohol is a disease, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.

anyone in AA will say that the only answer is to STOP. I say they are wrong. The answer is to LEARN with your MIND to CONTROL youself like everyone else.

I'm sober now, but I don't intend to abstain from alcohol. The social ramifications are too large. And, frankly, I like beer.

I just don't want it to rule my life. I think that is a fair think to aspire to. Some people are addicted to video games. But they are fun and a good release. Nothing wrong with them.

Maybe the AMA can come up with a study and create a 12-step program for that.

Or downloading movies/music on the net - addictive? YES!

12-stepping for net-aholics?

Doesn't exist.

LIVE YOUR LIFE. Don't live a substance rule over you. But you don't have to let the chase to eliminate something from your life rule you either.

Peace,
-wordtank

(again, I appreciate the openness here. Mill - you are on to something)

findingout

Of course they would. And what's more, they would like to be free and if it wasn't covered by their insurance plan they would complain long and hard until it was. And then when the pill didn't provide the answer to life, universe and everything (which we all know by now is 42), they would find a lawyer and sue.

God forbid people should have to take personal responsibility for their problems and actually think and act in manner that might accomplish something positive.

Tony

FaeryQueen

This thread reminds me of my favorite quote.


The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge.

Daniel Boorstin

squirrelly77

That's what I meant about searching, and researching, and searching again. That's what science is all about.
It's like those infinity mirrors...it looks like the lights could go on ad infitinum, but it's actually just a couple of mirrors that are reflecting those lights back onto themselves again and again and again.
I prefer to look at all diseases whether it be cancel, Alzheimer's, diabetes, all the mental illnesses...whatever as a dis-ease. Whether it's manifesting itself in the physical (i.e. a cancerous growth in your lungs) or non-physical (i.e. thought patterns that lead to obsessive thinking) there's something that's JUST NOT RIGHT. And, outta that JUST NOT RIGHT-ness is that fear I was talking about. I mean, we all know when we're living in fear or when we're peaceful with ourselves.
I prefer to live in the latter...and I've found a way to help me along.

NoMoBeer

Wow, there's a lot of "stuff" in this thread...
For me...
Alcoholism is a disease of body and mind. For me, willpower just doesn't play into it. If you believe that it does or can, that's cool. I need a power greater than human power...

Body -- I have a body that does not process alcohol like normal people. Once the alcohol gets into my system, it creates an actual physical craving, and I get drunk.

Mind -- I also have an obsession of the mind, which tells me "it's OK to drink, I'll control my drinking, I'll binge once a month, etc." Because of this obsession, I stay dry for a while, figure it's OK to drink, and start the cycle over again -- drink, get drunk, repeat. Have serious effects on my life. Repeat...

I found through AA a SPIRITUAL solution, which helps me think and live in a way to enjoy life and remove the obsession to drink. Period. I'll always be an alcoholic, so I will always practice these principles in all my affairs to the best of my ability.

If you don't agree with the program, don't come to AA. Sorry, but I cannot risk my sobriety trying to convince another that AA is the way to go... If you want it, you want it -- I'm here for anyone who needs it...

Just my two cents...

Ken
Happy, sober, member of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Peter

The disease concept of alcoholism is a donkey that has been ridden to the point of exhaustion , not only on this forum but on international panels worlwide......neither have had a conclusion......what it boils down to is what you are willing to believe.......

......free voicing of opinions have never been discouraged on this forum........bashing individuals for what they believe about recovery is.........

I am a product of AA philosphy. AA provided a source of inspiration for me where others had failed. I am proud and happy to speak up about something that has given me a better quality of life.

I am neither a christian ( although I do consider myself more than worm food) nor am I a brainwashed clone of AA that had my life shredded by "military like AA doctrine"

Myself and others like me can only speak of their personal experiences in life, anything else would be fantasy.........perhaps the reason why AA keeps popping up in recovery circles is because it has a measure of success which cannot be overlooked.

AA never has and never will claim to be the only solution to the alcoholism scourge ( some AA members might) but it is not a belief perpetuated by any AA literature.

By whatever course a man finds freedom for his addictions is a right that myself and most AA members will defend........his words and his actions will serve as an indicator of how much success he finds.

If AA does not appeal to you move on and try and find a programme that works for you. Ultimately whatever programme we choose it can do no more than serve as a guide........the final decision to recover is up to us.....

findingout

Very nice Ken. If you want what we have...

I just try to urge to people to make sure that they really know what it is we have before they decide that they don't want it, cause back in the day I was very close to making the wrong decision for me based on rumor, bad movies and preconceived notions....

One Love, One Heart,
Tony

equus

Has anyone here read 'Who Moved My Cheese?'

I'm asking because the story is a parable about seeking change and growth. Mostly it is applied to individuals but in the preface the author applies it to his company. I think that it's VERY applicable to organisations, including ones such as AA - they should seek a certain degree of change and adapt to new information.

On the note of disease I'll try to dig up a thread I put together after wrestling with the idea myself. One reason I was inclined to believe in physiological differences processing alcohol is that I'm, a lightweight. Even as a student drinking most days I have never been able to drink much - if I try to get drunk I puke! I know I'm different 'cos most people found it quite funny, I also know it wasn't because I was 'good' or sensible, or selfless!

One thing that bugs me is people re-defining what disease means in the first place. The definition of the word disease has nothing in it relating to a lack of free will - calling it a disease does NOT mean free will has nothing to do with it. In fact most disease is a result of vulnerabilities, enviroment, choices and psychology.

I'll dig up the old beast thread and stick a link to it.

Edit = Here's the link:
Alcoholism IS a disease.

Cathy31

Well said Ken and Tony...by the way Ken, I didn't get a chance to reply to your anniversary thread!! GOOD FOR YOU!!!! And to me that really sums it up...proof is in the pudding...you are living proof I think of how wonderfully AA can work in one's life.
Cathy31
x

CDr55

Im my honest opinion, it all varies per person.

I have met people who previously drank at consistent/harmful levels, but reduced their drinking to moderate levels.

For me personally, when I have a drink or two, it tends to set off a reaction where I just crave more and more. Thus, drinking to blackout. I have tried to moderate, but it is difficult, and I always want "one more." The only way I enjoy drinking is if it is unlimited. Also, while at times it may have seemed as though my drinking was improving, it would always catch up with me badly at some point in time. It sounds dark, but for me that is how it is, I cannot rationalize it.

There are many other recovery programs out there. As of now, I am going with AA, because of the support and help I get through other people. I have tried doing it alone, but have never had much luck.

I am not saying AA is the only way, nor am I saying that all who have alcohol problems are alcoholics. This is just the best way for me at the moment.

michaelj

I am always intrigued by these threads on the pros and cons of the efficacy of AA and the disease model. They seem to come along at fairly regular intervals and divide us into two camps.
The first camp is the pro AA, pro disease model party who are happy to admit their powerlessness and give themselves over to their higher power.
The second group are what might be termed the rationalists who believe that addiction to alcohol is a simple biological process that can be controlled by the power of their intellect without recourse to a higher power.
Now whilst my grouping is simplistic and somewhat basic I think it is a reasonable precis of the general position.
In what way does this division help us? It seems to set us at odds with each other and that cannot be helpful. I am perfectly happy with my rational outlook and for the fact that my willpower has kept me sober. I am also perfectly happy for those who trust in the 12 step approach and I celebrate their sobriety as much as my own.
Nobody forces us to go the AA route or the rational route, so what is the beef?
I have had great support from this site and I have been encouraged and sustained by its members no matter what group they occupy. If you can't do AA, don't do it. but for heavens sake let us support each other and not undermine ourselves. There are a number of alternative sites which espouse single model approaches to sobriety and if I wanted to get a monochrome view of recovery / sobriety I would go there. I love the technicolor of this site and will continue to be enthused by it.
Michael

Chy

Awesome thread folks!

I'll just ditto what Peter said.

Dan

In a nutshell, that's where the story ends.
Just for me.
I am much less concerned with success rates and disease definitions, than I am with the man or woman posting here, timidly, for the first time, wondering if they're in the right place.
Same goes for the person sitting in their car in the parking lot, while the rest of us are going in for a meeting.

Don S

...except the courts.
Over 90% of treatment programs are based on the 12 Step model, and their efficacy rate among people forced into them is very low. It would probably be more effective from society's standpoint to just have them go through probation, fines, and/or incarceration than to have them shunted off into programs which haven't been shown to be effective for people who aren't there voluntarily.
But I certainly get the rest of your point.
I suppose AA could change to reflect advances in our understanding of addiction and biochemistry and behavioral techniques. But that seems unlikely. So those of us who use other approaches can just keep putting the word out that there are alternatives.
Wordtank, if you haven't become aware yet of SMART Recovery, SOS, LifeRing, Women For Sobriety, or Rational Recovery, then I'd urge you to check out the link Carol posted. The chart comparing how the different groups compare regarding key issues is especially useful.

Don S
ps--I'm sure somewhere there's a 12 step program for netaholism! I assume they only have face-to-face meetings, though.

FaeryQueen

I agree. Not only are many of these people bitter at having to be in the rooms of AA, they are disruptive and disrespectful to those of us who are there because we want to be....9/10 it is a no win situation.

NoMoBeer

Don:
Right on with your comments. I agree that those who come into the rooms who really don't want to be there will not benefit, it's true -- "it works if you work it," and those folks most of the time won't want to do any work. You can't get sober by osmosis!

However, once in a while we'll see someone come in who was court appointed and the lights come on, they stay around and stay sober.

Certainly AA is not for everyone, but it works for me today.

Ken

Peter

The "court enforced" rule about AA meeting attendance is not something I have ever agreed with and I have heard of many meetings that are reluctant to sign their cards.

If AA is to work their has to first be some kind of acceptance of a drinking problem and a level of willingness to do something about it by going to meetings.

For the most part court ordered members tend to be disruptive. AA for all it's good intention is having difficulty shouldering this burden.

nocellphone

I agree that it's a choice to pick up the first drink, but then how does one account for the person who, after the first drink, is unable to stop drinking (or using other drugs? Let's not gloss over the fact that alcohol is a drug, and a toxin, and generally, not your friend...) despite negative consequences which, indisputably, often include jail time, mental institutions and eventually death?

The ability to make rational choices is impaired with each drink an alcoholic takes. Even though it remains a choice whether to drink or not, my guess is that as more alcohol is ingested, the voices of resolve ("I'll only have two beers and will certainly not drive!") and good sense ("Unprotected sex can lead to STDs!") are replaced by far-less healthy voices ("Sex with a leper...? Alright! Sign me up!!! I'll drive...").

And isn't cancer sometimes a choice, or are cigarette smokers just ******** (sorry, SR smokers )?

Oh, riiiiiiiight. It's an addiction! :slaphead There's that "choice" thing again...

FaeryQueen

BOOOO-YAAAAAH!!!
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Don S

Seems to me you answered your own question....

And most people who quit smoking do so without any program whatsoever. Some find it harder than others. But nowhere have I found it called nicotinolism.
Don S