wordtank

I started this thread - wonder if I can stop it.

We've gone from "what's the deal with AA" to recipies (sounds good by the way - I might just try it out!)

It seems to me that what we have learned here is that AA is the most widely available group through which many people can get help, and the fact that other recovery programs are a bit slim pickings for locations to go and numbers of people to meet that many of us must deal with the REALITY that AA is simply the most common forum for f2f discussion out there.

I still won't go there. As Mill said, it quacks of psuedo-christian cult mentality for some of us. "God grant me the serenity"... sorry, "god" grants me nothing. I used to attend church as a kid and it always made me feel hypocritical to invade on people's personal belief systems by even BEING there, since I did not hold anywhere NEAR the same beliefs as the congregation did. I have the utmost respect for the basic ideas taught in the christian moral system (don't kill people, don't steal... etc.), but the supernatural aspect is beyond me.

Arrrgggg.... off topic again.

Sorry.

Am I scared to go to AA? You bet. I feel no need, like I said before, to write down all my "sins" and then confess them to a bunch of people who most likely don't give a flying leap about my life.

But, it works for some. I'm interested in the alternatives. Go to AA if it is helping you and ignore the likes of myself and Mill. I'm sure CarolD will agree that all this talk is not really getting us toward a more controlled and happy life. LET'S GET HAPPY! WITHOUT THE BOOZE!

Tank - in Nagasaki (cool city, btw)

Time2Surrender

I bet Nagasaki is cool.Post some photos if you get a chance.As for writing down your sins and sharing them.You only need to share them with your higher power and one person you trust.I have also learned that more people in the program actually cared about me then I realized.If you wanna stop this thread just ask a Moderator to lock it.Personally,I think its a great thread though.

Millwallj

I agree Tank. Whilst ranting I kind of forget that I had a biological disease to something that will kill me. And so do others and I should be aware of that.


Do I dislike AA? Yes. Do I dislike the people in their who care and are of service to people? No. Like the local priest who gives his time to unfortunates, they are so incredible, and shine out good. Many people in AA are the kind of people I drank with - and I mean that in a positive light. Notice how everyone has a simular sense of humour in AA; well I have anyway - its because we have all "been there".

But as for Bill Wilson and how AA gets people sober I actually think is disgusting, cruel, and thats when it its not being utter nonesense.

So what would be good, for me who knows so little, is an easing up and branching out of the study and the treatment of alcoholisim. More work, money, and searching, to get people sober. Because, if reports are to go by, it just aint happening - mainly because many in the field of addiction are AA, and they believe it works (when, horribly, only 10% or less make it).

Dan

So what's the solution?
What does it take for people who clearly choose a route other than AA, to just let AA be?
I find it curious that debates about AA, amongst AA members, often get a lot bloodier than the discussion here. And I think that's because of personal perceptions. I'm not the 'model' AA', according to many of my peers in the rooms. I have a nasty anarcho/libertarian streak that often lands me in hot water, so to speak.
But on the whole, the more time I spend in and around the program with others like me, the more I become able to accept what used to be unacceptable. But more importantly, I become able to use it in furthering the quality of my sobriety.

At least, that's how it's going for me.

Baka mo ichi-gei
Even a fool has one talent

Millwallj

Dan - to answer your question, to leave AA alone, would mean delving into the current state of Addiction politics. There is a huge amount of anger in the addiction community toward AA - but it still has the right and rule over where most people end up.

Its not a case of addicts leaving AA alone - more a case of AA leaving us alone. It could do this by saying, and owning, and accepting that they are religious (see step Seven).

It should be called: If You Want To Find God Annoymous. And leave the poor alky, in desperate need of more affective treatment, out of it.

Millwallj

Hold onto the libertarian streak. Musicians have healed probably as many people as priests.

Millwallj

Logic say: each to their own.

findingout

Good lord, you grant A.A. powers that it does not even claim for itself. A.A. does not ask the courts to send anyone with a drinking problem their way. The courts choose to do so. A.A. does not ask treatment centers to send patients to A.A., the treatment centers choose to do so.

A.A. simply is what it is and it seems to grind some people that A.A. will not change what it is in order to become what it is not. If you don't want what A.A. has to offer, A.A. is cool with that. A.A. does not say you are a liar because you choose another path to recovery.

Individual members of A.A. are, of course, a different story.

One Love, One Heart,
Tony

Millwallj

and this is why there needs to be more options and more effort and more money put into different treatments.

because all drunks have is AA, but it is improving.

Millwallj

in the meantime I will try it another way - much like a guinea pig - and use SMART.

Time2Surrender

Then its very simple.Dont go.There are alteratives to AA.Why sit here and bash a program that has saved many lives?

It works for me Thats because it does work for a lotta people

AA doesnt go out and recruit members.And I dont see it as religious.Its spiritual.There is a difference.

Im glad I have God in my life. And there is nothing wrong with that.I wish you the best of luck.SMART is also working for many people.The main problem I have here with some of these remarks is a guest here at SR or a newcomer wanting to or considering giving AA a try will read this and maybe never get the help they need.

wordtank

Let the thread go! Still a lot of good discussion going on. I just feel that perhaps we are beating a dead horse now. But ONLY perhaps...

As for the AA confessional - I'd rather confess to myself. Just my way of doing things. Perhraps writting on this board is a way for me to get some things off my chest. Writing here is half only for myself (I could just send myself e-mails) and half looking for people who share similar experiences. And advice, of course. And all the advice is good - even the bits I don't agree with - because knowledge is never a bad thing.

And I'll try to get some digital photos of Nagasaki for those interesting. Hard to believe this place was in ashes 60 years ago. Hiroshima, too (I'll be swinging through there on the way back - second time there). Also, the 60th aniversary of the Nagasaki bomb is on the 9th - I'm sure there will be some big events going on, so I'll try to get some shots.

-tank

Time2Surrender

That would be cool Tank.I would like to see some photos.I bet it is intresting being somewhere that was completely destroyed 60 years ago.

wordtank

It's a hard thing to be honest on a board AND walk the line of not scaring people away from a treatment program that may very well work for them.

But I really don't think Mill was trying to come down on AA as a solution. He has stated many times that if it works for you, it works for you. However, I share his points about 95%. For myself, I, too, find AA overwhelming in the extreme in it's "spirital" aspects or whatever you want to label them.

However, it is the most common for of treatment for people and people new to recovery should 100% check it out. A lot depends on the specific group of people. In Japan AA is pretty strange since most Japanese are non-practicing buddhists. I've never been to an AA meeting in the States or the western-world, but I imagine that the "god" aspect is a lot more pronounced than here.

Mill and my comments are solely meant to reach out to others to try and understand our own issues and, perhaps, help people who, like us, find AA distasteful.

Let's keep it civil here, folks. Again, I applaud ANYONE who has had AA give the help they need. I don't know about their success rates or statistics (Penn and Teller said it was staggaringly (no, I cannot spell - try living overseas for four years) low - I assume many of you have seen that episode of ********). Stats don't matter really - if it works, it works. If it don't, find something that does.

Peace
-tank

2dayzmuse

You might want to consider posting in the anything but your name forum. You can vent and get things off of your chest there. People can give there opinions and advice. Then, it goes poof after 24 hours. These types of threads seem to be long and lingering. Some of the disscussions in the past did get rather bloody. I thought this was a very honest, informative sharing of the ES&H of others. As far as options other in AA? Maybe someone will start the perfect program meant for you or others. Today there is what there is. You must make a choice of what is available and which is the best for you. The most important thing is getting sober. Good luck...

Millwallj

yep - and on that peaceful note, lets let it float away....


peace.

tyler

What I have done on this note is to write down, I guess i would call it a guilt/shame journal. Basically all the crap I've done that I feel bad about and keeps me up at night. I'm not done with it yet, but this is what I am going to do. When I am finished I am going to read it to myself and burn it one page at a time. I will save the ashes and when I return to the ocean, a spiritual place for me, I will "release" the ashes there. It's kinda a modified fourth step in a way I guess. The writing down part has helped some already, but hopefully the other two steps will help me in moving forward from the past. Just my idea. BTW I've enjoyed this thread. Good discussion.

Millwallj

tyler - fantastic idea, let us know if it works. i liked step four because it got rid of shame and helped me see patterns. I am glad I done one (and someone spent the time to do it with me), even though I dont work any of the other steps, cept step 1 of course.

i would also suggest trying the principles and idea of CBT which can pretty much resolve any disturbance with a little bit of skill. very powerful stuff. and scientifically validated.

Peter

So far we have been able to conduct a debate on some controversial issues without being (too) disrepectful of others opinions.....lets all remember to keep it that way.

I too first thought AA's methods a little radical and extreme in it's approach to abstainance but after twenty years of hangovers, broken dreams, accidents, broken relationships, sleeping in cars, cemetaries and abandoned buildings,sitting out the night at police stations.......I thought I had punished myself enough..........

In AA we have a saying "An easier, softer way".

If AA's methods can be considered "brutal and extreme".....it is far less softer than the brutality I inflicted on myself.

When AA first evolved it catered to hard core alcoholism only, because founders felt that the average weekend drinker would find it hard to accept it's radical approach to recovery.......it is a policy AA has held fast to over the decades even though so called "softer" drinkers could find relief by learning to practise the simple principles of humility and acceptance.

Millwallj

yes, i was a relatively unscathed whole person when I came into AA. I sometimes fail to see it from those whose disease nearly killed them.

thanks peter.