What's the deal with AA?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 40
What's the deal with AA?
I'll bite.
If I do continue to contribute to this board, many will find that I tend to play devils advocate.
First, however, thanks for all the advice on my insomnia thread. It actually was quite useful and I am sleeping now (and sober). I'm on day 10 or so (I try not to KEEP count - don't want to become obsessed with something different).
I'll try to keep this short - but it might be difficult. The only reason I will pose these kinds of thoughts is because of what I've read here. Everyone on SR seems pretty nice and open minded (to an extent... but, then again, we all have our vices and points of view).
AA
I've been there. In Japan it is still a bit rare (most alcoholics in Japan, if they seek help, end up hospitalized for long periods of time and, if you you go to a NON-AA meeting about alcoholics here, most of the old guys there will tell you that they were almost dead, not just struggling with marital or social problems) to find AA groups. However, in Osaka, I was introduced to a group through a friend of mine who has been drinking pretty hard for the last 20+ years. I see his situation as a success story, though he still drinks. AA has given him a lot of structure and aim in his life that he lacked before. He is an American and grew up on the streets and without a lot of parental supervision. In addition to alcohol, he has done just about every drug in existence. But, at heart, he is good.
I call him a success story because he learned to control his drinking. He binges about once a month, but that is not at all usual in ANY place. People like to indulge in the "pleasures of life", even if they are harmful. There are PLENTY of things besides alcohol that are harmful. Some hypochondriacs could go on and on about all the poisons we put in/on our bodies.
So why is this "disease" different? And I am not one bit convinced it is a disease. There's a big difference between willpower and cancer.
It seems to me that most people in AA have replaced an obsession/addiction to alcohol with the obsession of abstinence. In my book, any obsession leads to destructive behaviour. I have seen AA members preach to others about not drinking, and it is, frankly, kind of sickening. It's like having a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness come to your house and try to save your soul. Life is something that we each deal with on our own terms. Some are christians, some buddhists, some hindu, some agnostic (me - to a fault probably).
I 100% applaud the people who get good help from AA. But AA seems to be the ONLY ANSWER to a lifestyle issue that many people have - alcohol. Why is it the ONLY solution?
I know on this board there is a specific message not to push AA on people who are not willing to accept it or ready for it, but what is the alternative? Even in THIS forum, where pressure to go to AA is discouraged, you see AA pop up ALL THE TIME in posts.
AA is a POSSIBLE avenue to changing the way one thinks. IT IS NOT THE ONLY SOLUTION. AA is also riddled with christian over/undertones that make it incredibly inaccessible to a large portion of Earth's population. Higher Power? Yeah, it could be your parents, or your piano, but what AA is really trying to get everyone to do is accept a god into their life and to give up control because we are, apparently, "incappable" of making choice for ourselves. This seems incredibly self-defeating to me.
I made a conscious choice not to drink and, other than the insane physiological symptom of not being able to sleep, it has proven to be absolutly no problem for me.
I guess what I just don't understand is the need for only ONE cure to a life-choice problem. Cancer has options. Alzeimers has options. Drinking too much? GO TO AA!!!!! Why!?!?!?!
To meet and talk to other people that share the same problem.
So why the heck isn't there a group that doesn't base their conversation on something other than 12-stepping. I don't feel any particular desire to own up to people I may have hurt by drinking - we hurt people (as humans) in an infinate number of ways besides drinking. Why does drinking rate a step where we bear our souls to people that probably FORGOT about what we did to them? What about the school bully that screwed up my life? He was 10 years old - not at all a heavy drinker. Where's his apology? Why do I have to give my life over to someone else when human beings are perfectly capable of taking charge of their own lives? It might not be easy, BUT LIFE IS NOT EASY.
As far as I can see, the "recovery" system is vastly flawwed.
I don't believe in god or higher powers. I am worm food. I try to live my life as best I can and do good to those around me. I have even been able to do a lot of good when I was drinking - lending an impartial and overly-honest ear to people in need. How is that bad?
Your thoughts are welcome.
Other than not being able to sleep as much (which is kind of nice), not drinking has not IN ANY WAY changed my lifestyle. I still waste as much time playing video games, watching simpson's episodes, and doing my job.
Sorry for any spelling mistakes. I type fast - and don't check.
Cheers? - sorry, that might be a bad word.
-wordtank
If I do continue to contribute to this board, many will find that I tend to play devils advocate.
First, however, thanks for all the advice on my insomnia thread. It actually was quite useful and I am sleeping now (and sober). I'm on day 10 or so (I try not to KEEP count - don't want to become obsessed with something different).
I'll try to keep this short - but it might be difficult. The only reason I will pose these kinds of thoughts is because of what I've read here. Everyone on SR seems pretty nice and open minded (to an extent... but, then again, we all have our vices and points of view).
AA
I've been there. In Japan it is still a bit rare (most alcoholics in Japan, if they seek help, end up hospitalized for long periods of time and, if you you go to a NON-AA meeting about alcoholics here, most of the old guys there will tell you that they were almost dead, not just struggling with marital or social problems) to find AA groups. However, in Osaka, I was introduced to a group through a friend of mine who has been drinking pretty hard for the last 20+ years. I see his situation as a success story, though he still drinks. AA has given him a lot of structure and aim in his life that he lacked before. He is an American and grew up on the streets and without a lot of parental supervision. In addition to alcohol, he has done just about every drug in existence. But, at heart, he is good.
I call him a success story because he learned to control his drinking. He binges about once a month, but that is not at all usual in ANY place. People like to indulge in the "pleasures of life", even if they are harmful. There are PLENTY of things besides alcohol that are harmful. Some hypochondriacs could go on and on about all the poisons we put in/on our bodies.
So why is this "disease" different? And I am not one bit convinced it is a disease. There's a big difference between willpower and cancer.
It seems to me that most people in AA have replaced an obsession/addiction to alcohol with the obsession of abstinence. In my book, any obsession leads to destructive behaviour. I have seen AA members preach to others about not drinking, and it is, frankly, kind of sickening. It's like having a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness come to your house and try to save your soul. Life is something that we each deal with on our own terms. Some are christians, some buddhists, some hindu, some agnostic (me - to a fault probably).
I 100% applaud the people who get good help from AA. But AA seems to be the ONLY ANSWER to a lifestyle issue that many people have - alcohol. Why is it the ONLY solution?
I know on this board there is a specific message not to push AA on people who are not willing to accept it or ready for it, but what is the alternative? Even in THIS forum, where pressure to go to AA is discouraged, you see AA pop up ALL THE TIME in posts.
AA is a POSSIBLE avenue to changing the way one thinks. IT IS NOT THE ONLY SOLUTION. AA is also riddled with christian over/undertones that make it incredibly inaccessible to a large portion of Earth's population. Higher Power? Yeah, it could be your parents, or your piano, but what AA is really trying to get everyone to do is accept a god into their life and to give up control because we are, apparently, "incappable" of making choice for ourselves. This seems incredibly self-defeating to me.
I made a conscious choice not to drink and, other than the insane physiological symptom of not being able to sleep, it has proven to be absolutly no problem for me.
I guess what I just don't understand is the need for only ONE cure to a life-choice problem. Cancer has options. Alzeimers has options. Drinking too much? GO TO AA!!!!! Why!?!?!?!
To meet and talk to other people that share the same problem.
So why the heck isn't there a group that doesn't base their conversation on something other than 12-stepping. I don't feel any particular desire to own up to people I may have hurt by drinking - we hurt people (as humans) in an infinate number of ways besides drinking. Why does drinking rate a step where we bear our souls to people that probably FORGOT about what we did to them? What about the school bully that screwed up my life? He was 10 years old - not at all a heavy drinker. Where's his apology? Why do I have to give my life over to someone else when human beings are perfectly capable of taking charge of their own lives? It might not be easy, BUT LIFE IS NOT EASY.
As far as I can see, the "recovery" system is vastly flawwed.
I don't believe in god or higher powers. I am worm food. I try to live my life as best I can and do good to those around me. I have even been able to do a lot of good when I was drinking - lending an impartial and overly-honest ear to people in need. How is that bad?
Your thoughts are welcome.
Other than not being able to sleep as much (which is kind of nice), not drinking has not IN ANY WAY changed my lifestyle. I still waste as much time playing video games, watching simpson's episodes, and doing my job.
Sorry for any spelling mistakes. I type fast - and don't check.
Cheers? - sorry, that might be a bad word.
-wordtank
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
I agree wholly that the treatment industry has been taken over by the cult of recovery. It has trapped itself in its own language and most people in it are to scared to change it.
What is said in meetings and what people do has remained the same since the very start. It also, as has been my experience, used fear tactics to control the way I think and behave. I would be okay with this, but the fact that what I feared was constructed by AA itself was very frustrating. My fears were not real. They were things I learned in meetings.
Alcoholisim, inside AA, is a disease created by whatever is said in meetings. It is not actually a thing anymore. Hear people say: My illness tells me to do this, to do that. So what you have - with no coherent scientific basis for what alcoholisim actually is - is mysterious, illogical, superstitious nonesense that has no basis in reality. The only way to overcome problems in AA is to become more indoctrined to the programme. The only answer to fears caused by indoctrination is to keep workign the programme.
All of this has been proven as nonesense by the fact there is no such thing, as has been proven by science, as the alky personality, and that most people decide to quit on their own...and guess what? they stay quit. I base my thoughts not on my "opinons" or feelings, or personal whim, but what has been found out by science.
AA turned me into a person who was told that my whole belief system needed to be replaced by the AA one. It done this through slogans and fear tactics.
I am grateful for all those alkys who recovered alone, with their own wit, and are not telling me about a disease they know nothing about. They just quit.
I am sorry if that annoys people, and that I am putting people at risk, but this is a free society. I can say what I like and you should be adult enough to "take what you need and leave the rest". Its what life is all about.
What is said in meetings and what people do has remained the same since the very start. It also, as has been my experience, used fear tactics to control the way I think and behave. I would be okay with this, but the fact that what I feared was constructed by AA itself was very frustrating. My fears were not real. They were things I learned in meetings.
Alcoholisim, inside AA, is a disease created by whatever is said in meetings. It is not actually a thing anymore. Hear people say: My illness tells me to do this, to do that. So what you have - with no coherent scientific basis for what alcoholisim actually is - is mysterious, illogical, superstitious nonesense that has no basis in reality. The only way to overcome problems in AA is to become more indoctrined to the programme. The only answer to fears caused by indoctrination is to keep workign the programme.
All of this has been proven as nonesense by the fact there is no such thing, as has been proven by science, as the alky personality, and that most people decide to quit on their own...and guess what? they stay quit. I base my thoughts not on my "opinons" or feelings, or personal whim, but what has been found out by science.
AA turned me into a person who was told that my whole belief system needed to be replaced by the AA one. It done this through slogans and fear tactics.
I am grateful for all those alkys who recovered alone, with their own wit, and are not telling me about a disease they know nothing about. They just quit.
I am sorry if that annoys people, and that I am putting people at risk, but this is a free society. I can say what I like and you should be adult enough to "take what you need and leave the rest". Its what life is all about.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
There are several non 12 step alternatives, that still rely on peer support as a main ingredient. Although I really don't know about the prevalence of these in Japan.
I find it unfortunate that some AA members can be vociferous to the point of leaving the impression that it is the only way.
But as you say Mill, it is a free society.
Personal beliefs and lived experience. Those are really the only two things I need to make sense of my life. I know about my life, because it happened to me. How I choose to make sense of it is really no one's business but mine. I have no wish to entrapt anyone in the patterns of my heart, as the quote goes.
I find it unfortunate that some AA members can be vociferous to the point of leaving the impression that it is the only way.
But as you say Mill, it is a free society.
Originally Posted by Millwallj
I am grateful for all those alkys who recovered alone, with their own wit, and are not telling me about a disease they know nothing about.
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
Originally Posted by DangerousDan
There are several non 12 step alternatives, that still rely on peer support as a main ingredient. Although I really don't know about the prevalence of these in Japan.
I find it unfortunate that AA members can be vociferous to the point of leaving the impression that it is the only way.
But as you say Mill, it is a free society.
Personal beliefs and lived experience. Those are really the only two things I need to make sense of my life. I know about my life, because it happened to me. How I choose to make sense of it is really no one's business but mine. I have no wish to entrapt anyone in the patterns of my heart, as the quote goes.
I find it unfortunate that AA members can be vociferous to the point of leaving the impression that it is the only way.
But as you say Mill, it is a free society.
Personal beliefs and lived experience. Those are really the only two things I need to make sense of my life. I know about my life, because it happened to me. How I choose to make sense of it is really no one's business but mine. I have no wish to entrapt anyone in the patterns of my heart, as the quote goes.
There needs to be changes. The recovery doctors need to start from the findings that alcaholisim is a disease of biology and not personality. That the personality problems the drinker has is a result of drinking. It is not healthy telling people to live a life that is based on one doctor, Doctor Bobs opinion, and a load of non scientists guessing what their "disease" is. Alcoholisim should be treated proffesionally.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Regardless of personal opinions, we can't deny the fact that many people got and stayed sober with the help of AA.
That these people will relate their experience on this, the "Alcoholism' forum, can hardly be a surprise.
I feel that the moment we attempt to segregate eachother, based on our personal beliefs, or lack thereof, we are jeopardizing our own recoveries, as well as that of the alcoholic who may have decided to look for help.
That these people will relate their experience on this, the "Alcoholism' forum, can hardly be a surprise.
I feel that the moment we attempt to segregate eachother, based on our personal beliefs, or lack thereof, we are jeopardizing our own recoveries, as well as that of the alcoholic who may have decided to look for help.
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
Originally Posted by minnie
Is alcoholism a disease of biology, though?
Not my words but the scientific comunities.
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Why?
Which does make a lot of sense. But on the other hand I believe in discussion and opposition. Thats a belief I have had all through my life.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 40
It needs to be said.
Don't worry about making trouble.
AA DOES work for some people. And that is GREAT! If a person's life is changed for the better as a result of... well... ANYTHING.. it's a good thing.
But I find too often that forums for open discussion about topics such as this are too focused on ONE solution to a problem. Western society is christian, and says the way to salvation is through some kind of god - though give me a definition or even an IDEA of what that REALLY means... most people are at a loss.
Alcohol and addiction are real things. Addition is real. People are addicted to LOTS of different things, but, even according the the US JUDICIAL SYSTEM - the only solution is AA. I say F&'(K that. (I'll go out on a limb for ya Mill). There ARE OTHER WAYS. You don't have to go to AA and have your ENTIRE WORLD shredded. AA is like the miliary. Break you down until you are a slave to RECOVERY (instead of the US's whims about pointless wars).
Some people do need the kind of help AA offers - and, like I have said, it IS good.
But there are others of us... we need more. Something more flexible and real than a doctrine of personal self-personality-mutilation. That is NOT healthy.
CHEERS.
-wordtank
AA DOES work for some people. And that is GREAT! If a person's life is changed for the better as a result of... well... ANYTHING.. it's a good thing.
But I find too often that forums for open discussion about topics such as this are too focused on ONE solution to a problem. Western society is christian, and says the way to salvation is through some kind of god - though give me a definition or even an IDEA of what that REALLY means... most people are at a loss.
Alcohol and addiction are real things. Addition is real. People are addicted to LOTS of different things, but, even according the the US JUDICIAL SYSTEM - the only solution is AA. I say F&'(K that. (I'll go out on a limb for ya Mill). There ARE OTHER WAYS. You don't have to go to AA and have your ENTIRE WORLD shredded. AA is like the miliary. Break you down until you are a slave to RECOVERY (instead of the US's whims about pointless wars).
Some people do need the kind of help AA offers - and, like I have said, it IS good.
But there are others of us... we need more. Something more flexible and real than a doctrine of personal self-personality-mutilation. That is NOT healthy.
CHEERS.
-wordtank
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Absolutely Mill.
We all have singular opinions. Exchanging them in a manner that would encourage newcomers, rather than scare them away, can and should be possible.
As I'm typing this, I wonder if Something more flexible and real than a doctrine of personal self-personality-mutilation falls into that category...
We all have singular opinions. Exchanging them in a manner that would encourage newcomers, rather than scare them away, can and should be possible.
As I'm typing this, I wonder if Something more flexible and real than a doctrine of personal self-personality-mutilation falls into that category...
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
At the end of hte day Dan, I am a humanist. A liberal, if you like. Someone who believes that at the core of everyone is good. Bob Dylan was more an idol to me that Jesus! These values I had - even quite strongly - when I was drinking. I never had resentments toward people. Not the core of people. At there behaviour maybe. But I knew, deep inside, that I loved them.
I am not a Christian, nor ever will be.
I am not a Christian, nor ever will be.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Millwallj
These values I had - even quite strongly - when I was drinking. I never had resentments toward people. Not the core of people. At there behaviour maybe. But I knew, deep inside, that I loved them.
Little Girl Found
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: North Andover, MA
Posts: 567
Okay,
I'm gonna to add my two cents and you can take it or leave it or do whatever you want with it. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of comments being made to this thread--with people either opposing your view or agreeing with your view, with a lot of facts, stats, experiences, etc. etc. to highlight and support their own ideas. For me personally, I like to keep things simple. Just plain living on this earth is complicated enough.
IN MY PERSONAL OPINION the common underlying theme I get when I read people questioning AA or alternative forms of recovery is WHAT IS THE ANSWER? There IS a lot of information out there regarding people and their findings to support what THEY think is the ONE and ONLY answer to recovery. I think that people in general would like a nice, neat, little pill they can swallow that opens the door to every question they have and provides a clear answer. But, that's not the case. I mean, even if you are given an answer...human nature tends to search, research, and search some more to make sure that that is the right one.
Okay, getting a little off track.
Here's what *I* believe and what has helped *me*.
There is a living, breathing, energy-filled Presence and out of that Presence comes all the stuff we as humans experience on this earth--anything material (what we know to be there by our 5 senses) and immaterial (thoughts, feelings, etc). In AA philosophy at the very core of that Presence is Truth, Good, Right, Peace, Serenity. As long as we are tapped into that core and drawing from it into our life experience all that is Truthful, Good, Right, Peaceful and Serene, so shall every decision we make in every aspect of our life--from what we're going to eat for breakfast to what we want to have as a career will be made based in that Knowledge.
I think that's where the confusion comes to "we can't make decisions about how to live our lives". We can...and we do--but what are we essentially making our decision based on or out of? Lots of us, including myself make decisions out of fear in the many forms it takes (financial insecurity, personal insecurity, not feeling loved or good enough) ...and that's actually what is at the root of my dis-ease. For example--the last boyfriend I had, I rushed into the relationship out of fear of being alone. And, of course--all the crap that comes with making a decision out of fear began to rise to the surface and of course that relationship didn't last.
OKAY...so the thing with AA is that it has given me a way to remove all the junk that blocks me from the aforementioned Presence so that I can make life decisions based not in fear but for my own Good and all that encompasses that Good.
Yeah, I tried to make is simple. And, I know what I mean to say in my head...it's just really hard to articulate it.
Peace,
Danielle
I'm gonna to add my two cents and you can take it or leave it or do whatever you want with it. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of comments being made to this thread--with people either opposing your view or agreeing with your view, with a lot of facts, stats, experiences, etc. etc. to highlight and support their own ideas. For me personally, I like to keep things simple. Just plain living on this earth is complicated enough.
IN MY PERSONAL OPINION the common underlying theme I get when I read people questioning AA or alternative forms of recovery is WHAT IS THE ANSWER? There IS a lot of information out there regarding people and their findings to support what THEY think is the ONE and ONLY answer to recovery. I think that people in general would like a nice, neat, little pill they can swallow that opens the door to every question they have and provides a clear answer. But, that's not the case. I mean, even if you are given an answer...human nature tends to search, research, and search some more to make sure that that is the right one.
Okay, getting a little off track.
Here's what *I* believe and what has helped *me*.
There is a living, breathing, energy-filled Presence and out of that Presence comes all the stuff we as humans experience on this earth--anything material (what we know to be there by our 5 senses) and immaterial (thoughts, feelings, etc). In AA philosophy at the very core of that Presence is Truth, Good, Right, Peace, Serenity. As long as we are tapped into that core and drawing from it into our life experience all that is Truthful, Good, Right, Peaceful and Serene, so shall every decision we make in every aspect of our life--from what we're going to eat for breakfast to what we want to have as a career will be made based in that Knowledge.
I think that's where the confusion comes to "we can't make decisions about how to live our lives". We can...and we do--but what are we essentially making our decision based on or out of? Lots of us, including myself make decisions out of fear in the many forms it takes (financial insecurity, personal insecurity, not feeling loved or good enough) ...and that's actually what is at the root of my dis-ease. For example--the last boyfriend I had, I rushed into the relationship out of fear of being alone. And, of course--all the crap that comes with making a decision out of fear began to rise to the surface and of course that relationship didn't last.
OKAY...so the thing with AA is that it has given me a way to remove all the junk that blocks me from the aforementioned Presence so that I can make life decisions based not in fear but for my own Good and all that encompasses that Good.
Yeah, I tried to make is simple. And, I know what I mean to say in my head...it's just really hard to articulate it.
Peace,
Danielle
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Well....
AA is not the only solution! You see it here so often as the majority of SR members who share are also AA members.
Here is a link from my files..Thanks to Don S.
Alternatives
I'm fond of this web link, because it compares the most common programs and gives an overview of their philosophies:
1. http://rrci.net/recovery_spectrum.htm
Why do I think alcoholism is a disease?
'Under The Influence' by Dr. James Milam & K. Ketcham
was the key to my understanding of how my body processes alcohol incorrectly.
The A,M.A. classifies alcoholism as a disease.
The God I have keeps me in peace and joy.
I did not discover Him in AA.
If anyone disagrees...I certainly do not care.
If anyone chooses to not attend AA...I certainly do not care.
I post here to share MY recovery journey. I hope it encourges others to seek their own.
Here is a link from my files..Thanks to Don S.
Alternatives
I'm fond of this web link, because it compares the most common programs and gives an overview of their philosophies:
1. http://rrci.net/recovery_spectrum.htm
Why do I think alcoholism is a disease?
'Under The Influence' by Dr. James Milam & K. Ketcham
was the key to my understanding of how my body processes alcohol incorrectly.
The A,M.A. classifies alcoholism as a disease.
The God I have keeps me in peace and joy.
I did not discover Him in AA.
If anyone disagrees...I certainly do not care.
If anyone chooses to not attend AA...I certainly do not care.
I post here to share MY recovery journey. I hope it encourges others to seek their own.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 501
Originally Posted by squirrelly77
Okay,
I'm gonna to add my two cents and you can take it or leave it or do whatever you want with it. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of comments being made to this thread--with people either opposing your view or agreeing with your view, with a lot of facts, stats, experiences, etc. etc. to highlight and support their own ideas. For me personally, I like to keep things simple. Just plain living on this earth is complicated enough.
IN MY PERSONAL OPINION the common underlying theme I get when I read people questioning AA or alternative forms of recovery is WHAT IS THE ANSWER? There IS a lot of information out there regarding people and their findings to support what THEY think is the ONE and ONLY answer to recovery. I think that people in general would like a nice, neat, little pill they can swallow that opens the door to every question they have and provides a clear answer. But, that's not the case. I mean, even if you are given an answer...human nature tends to search, research, and search some more to make sure that that is the right one.
Okay, getting a little off track.
Here's what *I* believe and what has helped *me*.
There is a living, breathing, energy-filled Presence and out of that Presence comes all the stuff we as humans experience on this earth--anything material (what we know to be there by our 5 senses) and immaterial (thoughts, feelings, etc). In AA philosophy at the very core of that Presence is Truth, Good, Right, Peace, Serenity. As long as we are tapped into that core and drawing from it into our life experience all that is Truthful, Good, Right, Peaceful and Serene, so shall every decision we make in every aspect of our life--from what we're going to eat for breakfast to what we want to have as a career will be made based in that Knowledge.
I think that's where the confusion comes to "we can't make decisions about how to live our lives". We can...and we do--but what are we essentially making our decision based on or out of? Lots of us, including myself make decisions out of fear in the many forms it takes (financial insecurity, personal insecurity, not feeling loved or good enough) ...and that's actually what is at the root of my dis-ease. For example--the last boyfriend I had, I rushed into the relationship out of fear of being alone. And, of course--all the crap that comes with making a decision out of fear began to rise to the surface and of course that relationship didn't last.
OKAY...so the thing with AA is that it has given me a way to remove all the junk that blocks me from the aforementioned Presence so that I can make life decisions based not in fear but for my own Good and all that encompasses that Good.
Yeah, I tried to make is simple. And, I know what I mean to say in my head...it's just really hard to articulate it.
Peace,
Danielle
I'm gonna to add my two cents and you can take it or leave it or do whatever you want with it. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of comments being made to this thread--with people either opposing your view or agreeing with your view, with a lot of facts, stats, experiences, etc. etc. to highlight and support their own ideas. For me personally, I like to keep things simple. Just plain living on this earth is complicated enough.
IN MY PERSONAL OPINION the common underlying theme I get when I read people questioning AA or alternative forms of recovery is WHAT IS THE ANSWER? There IS a lot of information out there regarding people and their findings to support what THEY think is the ONE and ONLY answer to recovery. I think that people in general would like a nice, neat, little pill they can swallow that opens the door to every question they have and provides a clear answer. But, that's not the case. I mean, even if you are given an answer...human nature tends to search, research, and search some more to make sure that that is the right one.
Okay, getting a little off track.
Here's what *I* believe and what has helped *me*.
There is a living, breathing, energy-filled Presence and out of that Presence comes all the stuff we as humans experience on this earth--anything material (what we know to be there by our 5 senses) and immaterial (thoughts, feelings, etc). In AA philosophy at the very core of that Presence is Truth, Good, Right, Peace, Serenity. As long as we are tapped into that core and drawing from it into our life experience all that is Truthful, Good, Right, Peaceful and Serene, so shall every decision we make in every aspect of our life--from what we're going to eat for breakfast to what we want to have as a career will be made based in that Knowledge.
I think that's where the confusion comes to "we can't make decisions about how to live our lives". We can...and we do--but what are we essentially making our decision based on or out of? Lots of us, including myself make decisions out of fear in the many forms it takes (financial insecurity, personal insecurity, not feeling loved or good enough) ...and that's actually what is at the root of my dis-ease. For example--the last boyfriend I had, I rushed into the relationship out of fear of being alone. And, of course--all the crap that comes with making a decision out of fear began to rise to the surface and of course that relationship didn't last.
OKAY...so the thing with AA is that it has given me a way to remove all the junk that blocks me from the aforementioned Presence so that I can make life decisions based not in fear but for my own Good and all that encompasses that Good.
Yeah, I tried to make is simple. And, I know what I mean to say in my head...it's just really hard to articulate it.
Peace,
Danielle
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 40
A disease?
CarolD - I respect your opinion a lot - a have read a lot of what you have posted and you even took the time to answer me when I was a bit short on the insomnia thread.
AMA says alcoholism is a disease. On what grounds? I don't keep up on scientific journals, but I know that this is a decision that is debated. What is a disease? Cancer? AIDs? pedophilia? where do you draw a definition? just because some eggheads in the AMA what to make an arbitrary decision based on... well, I have no idea, and THEY DON'T EITHER.
look at prohibition - oh - crap... people are drinking so we have to outlaw it! the only reason it didn't stick is because such an infringment on personal rights (even if they are abusive - so is sleeping too much or drinking too much coffee).
AMA my butt. They are just people making deicions based on politics. Science is politics. Look at history.
disease - I don't buy that. It's a choice. Cancer is not a choice. drinking IS.
AMA says alcoholism is a disease. On what grounds? I don't keep up on scientific journals, but I know that this is a decision that is debated. What is a disease? Cancer? AIDs? pedophilia? where do you draw a definition? just because some eggheads in the AMA what to make an arbitrary decision based on... well, I have no idea, and THEY DON'T EITHER.
look at prohibition - oh - crap... people are drinking so we have to outlaw it! the only reason it didn't stick is because such an infringment on personal rights (even if they are abusive - so is sleeping too much or drinking too much coffee).
AMA my butt. They are just people making deicions based on politics. Science is politics. Look at history.
disease - I don't buy that. It's a choice. Cancer is not a choice. drinking IS.
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