continued from before
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 448
continued from before
Having got off the track of a different thread I have started this one to reply.
It has been suggested that someone is entitled to ask anything they like of anyone at an AA meeting. Little rugged though this could be, I see that strictly speaking you are right. Perhaps I should have said the only question your entitled to an answer at AA is if the member has a desire to stop drinking.
I am a non-believer in any supernatural God, but I have other beliefs. I believe that I do not have to believe in any of the 12 steps to go to AA. I believe that when someone then asks me why do I go then? that they are probably not really interested in knowing the reasons why I go, but are actually challenging the legitamacy of my AA membership. What they are actually saying is I should not be there unless I tow the 12 steps line. This would be a more honest communication would it not? I am sure many people will be hoping that I mess up and get banned from this site. And maybe I will.
I don't believe I need to follow the 12 steps or be spiritual to be an AA member. I believe I can be an agnostic member of AA and sit in meetings and say what I believe.
Until very recently AA presented itself to the newcomer as the only way to get sober. If you were a real alcoholic then only a higher power and the 12 steps could save you. Well I have been an AA member since 1982 and practiced the 12 steps and now I don't believe in them and I'm going to sit amongst my fellow alcoholics and say that. Plenty people are angry and try to discredit me by saying that I cannot be a real alcoholic, I am in denial, I must have an ego problem etc., but perhaps it would have been more interesting to ask why I have the beliefs that I do.
I didn't pull my views out of thin air. I didn't after such a long time sober wake up one morning and decide I would rub you all up the wrong way.
I don't want to impose my views on those people happy with theirs. But the days are coming where, in AA too, newcomers will get a choice. There is becoming choice. Already, previously staunch AAs are having to accept the existence of other fellowships, only a few years ago this acknowledgement would not have existed. We were the only answer! Individuals recovery is changing for those who do not want a spiritual/supernatural solution. And that has happened for me in AA.
regards
Andy F
It has been suggested that someone is entitled to ask anything they like of anyone at an AA meeting. Little rugged though this could be, I see that strictly speaking you are right. Perhaps I should have said the only question your entitled to an answer at AA is if the member has a desire to stop drinking.
I am a non-believer in any supernatural God, but I have other beliefs. I believe that I do not have to believe in any of the 12 steps to go to AA. I believe that when someone then asks me why do I go then? that they are probably not really interested in knowing the reasons why I go, but are actually challenging the legitamacy of my AA membership. What they are actually saying is I should not be there unless I tow the 12 steps line. This would be a more honest communication would it not? I am sure many people will be hoping that I mess up and get banned from this site. And maybe I will.
I don't believe I need to follow the 12 steps or be spiritual to be an AA member. I believe I can be an agnostic member of AA and sit in meetings and say what I believe.
Until very recently AA presented itself to the newcomer as the only way to get sober. If you were a real alcoholic then only a higher power and the 12 steps could save you. Well I have been an AA member since 1982 and practiced the 12 steps and now I don't believe in them and I'm going to sit amongst my fellow alcoholics and say that. Plenty people are angry and try to discredit me by saying that I cannot be a real alcoholic, I am in denial, I must have an ego problem etc., but perhaps it would have been more interesting to ask why I have the beliefs that I do.
I didn't pull my views out of thin air. I didn't after such a long time sober wake up one morning and decide I would rub you all up the wrong way.
I don't want to impose my views on those people happy with theirs. But the days are coming where, in AA too, newcomers will get a choice. There is becoming choice. Already, previously staunch AAs are having to accept the existence of other fellowships, only a few years ago this acknowledgement would not have existed. We were the only answer! Individuals recovery is changing for those who do not want a spiritual/supernatural solution. And that has happened for me in AA.
regards
Andy F
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Originally Posted by Andy F
I
"I don't believe I need to follow the 12 steps or be spiritual to be an AA member. I believe I can be an agnostic member of AA and sit in meetings and say what I believe."
"I don't believe I need to follow the 12 steps or be spiritual to be an AA member. I believe I can be an agnostic member of AA and sit in meetings and say what I believe."
Until very recently AA presented itself to the newcomer as the only way to get sober. If you were a real alcoholic then only a higher power and the 12 steps could save you."
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: El Paso, Tx
Posts: 5,862
As a newcomer I had no clue how to find help. I had heard of AA knew that there were other choices but didn't know where or how to look. I became one of the online babies in seeking an option, not until I found SR did I see there were many alternatives to recovery. Not once in my meetings, have I heard AA proclaimed to be the only way to get sober. Attraction rather then promotion is what I heard, and I was attracted to the idea so many in the room my first time had found a solution in the program of AA, that's why I stuck around. However, had I been better informed I may have tried something else, but for me if it ain't broke why fix it, so I stay and follow the suggestions, key word for me, suggestions.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Boy...
I hope we can all be civil here. As Peter remarked in another thread, any discussion regarding religion and/or spirituality will attract many. As I see it, there will always be AA members that will jump at the opportunity to take my inventory when I voice my opinions on matters of spirituality. So be it. It happens here, and it happens in the rooms.
I'm thinking it's part of the dynamic. It's what humans do.
What matters to me is that I continue developing happiness in my life, while remaining abstinent. That's my prime directive, so to speak. One of the ways I do that is by remaining teachable, at all times. But that certainly doesn't mean to stop formulating and adapting my beliefs to my ever changing circumstance. There are constants in sobriety and recovery. And there is also flow and movement. For me anyway.
Because Andy brought it up, I'll just say that I don't accept the term real alcoholic as being of any use in this day and age. It doesn't mean I think Bill and Bob were wrong. It just means that I find no practical way to interpret it, from what I've lived and seen around me.
I believe that a big part of carrying the message of recovery I found in AA to those who still suffer is to communicate to them, as best I can, how my disease may still be manifesting itself on a daily basis, and how I use the tools I found in the rooms to remain abstinent in spite of it, instead of pointing out to them how they may or may not be living up to my interpretation of the steps and traditions.
I hope we can all be civil here. As Peter remarked in another thread, any discussion regarding religion and/or spirituality will attract many. As I see it, there will always be AA members that will jump at the opportunity to take my inventory when I voice my opinions on matters of spirituality. So be it. It happens here, and it happens in the rooms.
I'm thinking it's part of the dynamic. It's what humans do.
What matters to me is that I continue developing happiness in my life, while remaining abstinent. That's my prime directive, so to speak. One of the ways I do that is by remaining teachable, at all times. But that certainly doesn't mean to stop formulating and adapting my beliefs to my ever changing circumstance. There are constants in sobriety and recovery. And there is also flow and movement. For me anyway.
Because Andy brought it up, I'll just say that I don't accept the term real alcoholic as being of any use in this day and age. It doesn't mean I think Bill and Bob were wrong. It just means that I find no practical way to interpret it, from what I've lived and seen around me.
I believe that a big part of carrying the message of recovery I found in AA to those who still suffer is to communicate to them, as best I can, how my disease may still be manifesting itself on a daily basis, and how I use the tools I found in the rooms to remain abstinent in spite of it, instead of pointing out to them how they may or may not be living up to my interpretation of the steps and traditions.
Old and in the Way
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: High and Dry
Posts: 789
I heard a comment at a meeting the other day from someone with 30+ years that helped me out on this issue:
"The point of AA is not to believe every damned thing in the Big Book. The purpose is to stay sober. You may still be a horse's ass, but most likely you'll be a better horse's ass."
I'm just trying to be a better horse's ass. If I get a little spiritualism in the package, that probably won't kill me either.
"The point of AA is not to believe every damned thing in the Big Book. The purpose is to stay sober. You may still be a horse's ass, but most likely you'll be a better horse's ass."
I'm just trying to be a better horse's ass. If I get a little spiritualism in the package, that probably won't kill me either.
I do it everyday
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The Field of Dreams
Posts: 7,249
Until very recently AA presented itself to the newcomer as the only way to get sober. If you were a real alcoholic then only a higher power and the 12 steps could save you."
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 448
Peter
You are right and I have written incorrectly. Strictly speaking, AA and the big book make no overt or direct claim to be the only way to get sober. I ought to have said in my view and interpretation of my experience, the majority of its members makes this claim with their mindset and actions.
Many of you do not seem to share my experience. And I accept that. The reason I say that until recently there was virtually no tolerance or acknowledgement of non-spiritual ways is what I have heard and read in AA. It is clear that the AA book claims that a 'real' alcoholic as distinct from a heavy drinker has lost the ability to stop drinking through human power, and that their only hope is a God who can and will restore them to sanity. Whilst respecting our rights as individuals to buck the system, generally I think that's a fair comment of where mainly Bill W. and the Oxford groupers were coming from. Over twenty odd years in AA I have participated in the general feeling that I belonged to something unique. Noone could understand an alcoholic like another alcoholic, we took silent pride here in the UK (not speaking for everyone) of noting how doctors only had 30 minutes training on alcoholism, how at one time the Head of the Police said he could assure the public that the entire UK Police force had no alcoholics in it. How as recovered members we went to our conventions knowing that the only way for an alcoholic to get sober was through God, higher power, call it what you will, and the 12 steps. Even Bill W thought that AA might provide world peace. I point to the tip of the iceberg in regards to this insular attitude. Anyone staying sober without the 12 steps was of course a dry drunk. An accident waiting to happen. Anyone who refused to believe in God was of course in denial or had an ego problem. The mindset, the belief system in AA membership has not been open.
What I was trying to say, that in my view, particularly staunch AA members are having to at least tolerate in their minds and acknowledge and come to terms with the fact that people are getting sober without a spiritual connection. It hasn't extended to wanting it on their doorstep, but it's coming. That's just a personal view. Not one I want to impose.
I haven't started this for an arguement. I responded to a post about 'pity the agnostic'. I am happy to explore anything with anyone here, but I am not looking to win or lose an arguement.
You are right and I have written incorrectly. Strictly speaking, AA and the big book make no overt or direct claim to be the only way to get sober. I ought to have said in my view and interpretation of my experience, the majority of its members makes this claim with their mindset and actions.
Many of you do not seem to share my experience. And I accept that. The reason I say that until recently there was virtually no tolerance or acknowledgement of non-spiritual ways is what I have heard and read in AA. It is clear that the AA book claims that a 'real' alcoholic as distinct from a heavy drinker has lost the ability to stop drinking through human power, and that their only hope is a God who can and will restore them to sanity. Whilst respecting our rights as individuals to buck the system, generally I think that's a fair comment of where mainly Bill W. and the Oxford groupers were coming from. Over twenty odd years in AA I have participated in the general feeling that I belonged to something unique. Noone could understand an alcoholic like another alcoholic, we took silent pride here in the UK (not speaking for everyone) of noting how doctors only had 30 minutes training on alcoholism, how at one time the Head of the Police said he could assure the public that the entire UK Police force had no alcoholics in it. How as recovered members we went to our conventions knowing that the only way for an alcoholic to get sober was through God, higher power, call it what you will, and the 12 steps. Even Bill W thought that AA might provide world peace. I point to the tip of the iceberg in regards to this insular attitude. Anyone staying sober without the 12 steps was of course a dry drunk. An accident waiting to happen. Anyone who refused to believe in God was of course in denial or had an ego problem. The mindset, the belief system in AA membership has not been open.
What I was trying to say, that in my view, particularly staunch AA members are having to at least tolerate in their minds and acknowledge and come to terms with the fact that people are getting sober without a spiritual connection. It hasn't extended to wanting it on their doorstep, but it's coming. That's just a personal view. Not one I want to impose.
I haven't started this for an arguement. I responded to a post about 'pity the agnostic'. I am happy to explore anything with anyone here, but I am not looking to win or lose an arguement.
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
Andy< you've been sober for over 22 years. You happy in your life? Are you a good person? Some big book thumper annoy you? I enjoy reading your posts. I wouldn't suggest to you that what you're doing is wrong. I'm a firm believer in my faith and you're happy in your non belief.
Sex, religion and politics have no place behind the doors of AA. I posted on the other thrread, how ironic theJan. 25 Daily Reflection had the reading hitting home. We gain from each otheres ESH in here. It takes everyone of us to form a group fellowship. That means you, me and everyone else. I wouldn't want AA w/o you in it
chris
Sex, religion and politics have no place behind the doors of AA. I posted on the other thrread, how ironic theJan. 25 Daily Reflection had the reading hitting home. We gain from each otheres ESH in here. It takes everyone of us to form a group fellowship. That means you, me and everyone else. I wouldn't want AA w/o you in it
chris
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Andy
I understand where you are coming from in your own personal experiences.
I too have learned to modify my own beliefs about what AA represents as far as Steps, spirituality and it's ability to help the alcoholic is concerned.
I have no quarrel with anyone who exercises their right to ask questions about AA.
What I have little tolerance for, is anyone making inaccurate statements about a programme that I have a great deal of respect for.
I understand where you are coming from in your own personal experiences.
I too have learned to modify my own beliefs about what AA represents as far as Steps, spirituality and it's ability to help the alcoholic is concerned.
I have no quarrel with anyone who exercises their right to ask questions about AA.
What I have little tolerance for, is anyone making inaccurate statements about a programme that I have a great deal of respect for.
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
AA TAUGHT ME TO NOT GIVE UP TO LOVE MY SELF FOR THE SICK BASTARD i'D BECOME.
TO ANYTHING I MIGHT BECOME OF THAT'S WORTH ANYTHING OF VALUE i OWE THIS PROGRAM
I KNOW WHAT THE DEPTHS OF HELL ARE LIKE I WAS THERE, I DON'T WANT TO EVER GO BACK TO THE BONDAGE I WAS RELEASED FROM
TO ANYTHING I MIGHT BECOME OF THAT'S WORTH ANYTHING OF VALUE i OWE THIS PROGRAM
I KNOW WHAT THE DEPTHS OF HELL ARE LIKE I WAS THERE, I DON'T WANT TO EVER GO BACK TO THE BONDAGE I WAS RELEASED FROM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: gone
Posts: 35
Hmmmm...
Wow, y'all--
I've been quietly following this discussion for a couple days now. As a newbie who has no experience with any particular program, it's been really interesting, and has given me a whole new bunch of stuff to explore (which provides the added benefit of keeping my brain occupied so it can't obsess about alcohol).
Andy, I sure wouldn't want you to ever be banned from this forum! Actually, I wouldn't want any of you folks to go away! What I so appreciate about SR is how inclusive it really is, and that everyone is free to express differing opinions. A person can really find help here, regardless of his/her particular religious or philosophical persuasion.
That's all!
Cara
I've been quietly following this discussion for a couple days now. As a newbie who has no experience with any particular program, it's been really interesting, and has given me a whole new bunch of stuff to explore (which provides the added benefit of keeping my brain occupied so it can't obsess about alcohol).
Andy, I sure wouldn't want you to ever be banned from this forum! Actually, I wouldn't want any of you folks to go away! What I so appreciate about SR is how inclusive it really is, and that everyone is free to express differing opinions. A person can really find help here, regardless of his/her particular religious or philosophical persuasion.
That's all!
Cara
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Concord, CA
Posts: 1,910
One of the amazing things about AA is that it works weather you're Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Jain, Buddhist, Shinto, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Animist/Tribal, OR nothing at all. AND all are welcome! Andy, glad to see you here 
!
ALL are welcome!!!
! ALL are welcome!!!
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: California, California
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by Andy F
[Snip]
[P]eople are getting sober without a spiritual connection.
[Snip]
[P]eople are getting sober without a spiritual connection.
[Snip]
It is my contention these views are needed and deserve attention here, not only because I share them but because the goal of this forum is recovery. Recovery is equally valid for those who choose a higher power (AA, 12-steps, etc.) as it is to those who choose to denounce religion, spirituality, or both, and find other ways to recovery.
I consider the mental turmoil I endured going into a 28 day program an atheist, forced to dream up some "higher power" just to please the group and appear I took recovery seriously in this particular manner (let alone what I was going through physically and mentally). Some said "just make the tree your higher power." Well, to many atheists, spiritualism is invalid, akin to religion, as the latter springs from the former, so neither offers solace. So to comply, and with no stretch of illogic already used, I made myself my higher power, instead of the tree, and left any elaboration (and 12 steps, for that matter) to others. I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one with these views.
In the 28 day program we were doused in AA principles daily. We went to AA meetings three or four evenings a week, had to write in Hazelden pamphlets in a confessional manner while "reflecting" on passages from the Blue Book. I attended AA meetings for two months after the program but soon gave up all hope of ever getting anything useful from them. It was educational certainly, but I am incapable of applying AA principles.
So what did the 28 day program achieve? So far, about a year's sobriety to which I credit AA nothing.
Sobriety can be achieved without AA, and you don't have to be an atheist (although it helps
).The only reason I post this is to support different views on the matter.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
I heard a saying once that went like this. "The further I am from my last drink, the closer I am to my next." This implies that the longer I've been sober, the more apt I am to rest on my laurels and get complacent. This implies that the longer I'm sober and get complacent, the greater the chance is that my ego will at some point tell me that, "I've come this far and had this much success that I can slack off and handle this myself. After all, look how long I've been sober and how much I've accomplished." People with long term sobriety, who go back out and drink, are very rarely ever heard from again simply because their ego won't let them come back and tell the people at the meetings that they got lazy, stopped working the steps, stopped calling their sponsor(after all, if I can handle it, what's the need for a sponsor), stopped going to meetings, and eventually John Barleycorn once again became their best friend. My soul purpose today as far as AA goes is to carry the message of AA to suffering alcoholics who want to hear that message. The message I carry is the message in the Big Book and how it's helped me to get sober and stay sober, so far today. I care about people who want to get sober. People who still want to drink, or who are not interested in hearing what I have to say have my undieing willingness to be here when and if they ever want to get sober.
I don't take any credit for my sobriety. True, I've done the footwork but that's on me. That's my responsibility. I didn't just get sober by accident, and it certainly wasn't my intention. I'm sober today due to the AA program and the Higher Power of my understanding...period. My ego would love for me to sit at a meeting and tell people I'm sober today all because of me, that I don't work the steps and don't believe in a higher power. That very fact alone would keep me from coming back and telling those very same people that I'd gone back out and to please help me save my life, yet again.
I don't take any credit for my sobriety. True, I've done the footwork but that's on me. That's my responsibility. I didn't just get sober by accident, and it certainly wasn't my intention. I'm sober today due to the AA program and the Higher Power of my understanding...period. My ego would love for me to sit at a meeting and tell people I'm sober today all because of me, that I don't work the steps and don't believe in a higher power. That very fact alone would keep me from coming back and telling those very same people that I'd gone back out and to please help me save my life, yet again.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 448
Originally Posted by Peter
Andy
What I have little tolerance for, is anyone making inaccurate statements about a programme that I have a great deal of respect for.
What I have little tolerance for, is anyone making inaccurate statements about a programme that I have a great deal of respect for.
I am a little uncertain if this relates to my earlier posting? Was my earlier posting really that innacurate? I thought we were dealing with semantics really, not great mistruths about the nature of AA. Sorry if I offend.
Andy F
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
