jlo34

It has been my experience watching multitudes of people going in and out of the doors of AA the following: those who don't want to stay sober-won't; those who struggle to find a Higher Power and give up-don't stay sober; those who take credit and make themselves the Higher Power-get drunk. Those who search for a Higher Power tend to stay sober; regardless of their initial beliefs, stay sober because they are willing to go to any lengths. People who work the 12 steps and 12 traditions in their lives stay sober. People who attend a lot of meetings stay sober. People who pray to their Higher Power stay sober.

I'm not sure if it was Andy or Don; one of you mentioned how the "non-spiritual" AA (which therefore is NOT AA-since AA is founded on spiritual principles) works "the steps" minus a Higher Power, and closes saying something other than the Lord's Prayer, and has "no use" for the Big Book. Is that also true about the 12&12? Is that also true about the Serenity Prayer or is that ok - it only outrightly says God once (and it is prayer?!?!).

I understand some people don't need AA to get/stay sober. I do. I need the meetings, the fellowship, the steps, the traditions, the sponsors, my home group, and I certainly need my Higher Power in my life. My Higher Power is the One Who blessed me with this beautiful gift of sobriety. Just watching the number of people come in and out of the doors of AA for a few years, will show you what a beautiful gift sobriety is. To have a second chance at life, it's just a miracle.

My opinion and my opinion only: there are a few of you who are very outright on your opinions about NON-SPIRITUAL. I understand Don - he just puts it out there along with other areas to look at, not really argumentative. Andy, you seem to be fighting the battle here: not that there's a fight to win. My problem with it is that new people see this or hear your attitude and know that you are a "member" of AA and the attraction rather than promotion doesn't happen. Sounds like you have the same issues at the meeting(s) you attend. Are you setting a good example for AA? I'm not just talking about the whole "God" thing. But it sounds like you have a very hostile attitude; like a dry drunk.

I guess that's why some of us believe in spirituality, we don't have to do it alone, and feeling the love of our Higher Power's arms wrapped around me makes those hostile feelings / character defects / shortcomings go away. Experiencing the spiritual experience. Seeing others experience it; it's a beautiful thing. I am grateful that I DO believe.

Andy, let me clarify, if I didn't: I don't have anything personal against you or your beliefs. My comments are just asking if you are setting a good example for AA - I may have relatives or friends show up at the meeting(s) you go to; and I hope to God they find love and acceptance when they step foot in that meeting. Sounds like you are arguing a lot at your meeting(s); so are you being so focused on anti-spiritualism or on the message of AA (which is spiritualism)? You don't have to answer that, think about it, honestly.

Regards,
Jen

Music

Hi Andy,
All I did was express my views. Thanks for noticing. :hello2

Peter

Andy, saying that "AA claims to have the only solution to the alcohol dilemma"
is inaccurate.

"AA is a religious programme." is another common mistruth about AA which I often hear flying around recovery circles and whenever I hear it I find it hard to keep quiet.

I respect your views that people may find relief in AA through fellowship alone and not necessarily from working any "Spiritual Principles" but there are certain elements to the AA creed which remain unchanged.

Dan

Voicing my opinions about my beliefs will inevitably bring about contrary opinions in a dialogue. Call me a dry drunk though, because my beliefs don't line up with yours, that may be a little more than dialogue, no?
So a member of AA, (simple requirement for membership, as I understand it), brings forth his opinion clearly, in a non-confrontational manner, and he is characterized as a dry drunk...
My question would be, is this a good example of AA jlo?

CAPTAINZING2000

Andy,

you're getting a lot of miles from this thread. I was saying the other day, I like being on the boards. We don't get many newcomers in the small town I live. When, you have several people in a room with sobriety it's more of a BS get together. I don't seem to have a problem perse mostly just observations.

AA gave me the neccessary tools to lead a normal life. Stop and think, are we not a little better people then most of the people we encounter when, we've got several years in AA. Not taking anyone's inventory outside AA but, We learn early on to become tolerent or, accept the people places and things that the so called normies don't

I go to AA for my daily reality check. Somehow, here lately I'm going to more meetings then ever b 4!!! LOL I'm going to recover or, die trying


Chris

Peter

My interpretation of a "dry drunk" (as commonly referred to in AA)

Someone who has "stopped ingesting alcohol" but still displays the negative aspects, characterised by his drinking such as dishonestyand irresponsibility.........

Expounding an opinion about AA or about anything else for that matter is not necessarily being a "Dry drunk........"

jlo34

Dan,
I am not "calling" anyone a dry drunk. It is not my job or responsibility to judge anyone. I am merely expressing my opinion and interpretation. I have labeled myself as a dry drunk at times throughout my sobriety.
According to Webster's Pocket Dictionary:
Dry - 1. not under water. 2. free from moisture. 3. deficient in rain or water; arid. 4. thirsty. 5. not giving milk. 6. solid; not liquid. 7. not sweet. 8. prohibiting alcoholic beverages. 9. humorous in a sharp but restrained way. 10. not productive. 11. tedious; dull.
Drunk - past partipiple of drink: 1. overwhelmed by alcoholic liquor. 2. same as drunken (pertaining to, caused by, or happening during intoxication).
For me, a dry drunk is when I am exhibiting behaviors/defects of characters/ shortcomings as I did when I was drinking with physical abstinence.

I am not trying to offend anyone, blame anyone, or label anyone. I am merely expressing my opinions and my beliefs. I am not saying that because I believe in a Higher Power my program or my life is better than anyone's. I am trying to understand how the psychic change takes place without a Higher Power, I am trying to figure out how a spiritual experience happens without a Higher Power. I don't understand and am looking for understanding. I apologize if I came off any differently. I am not looking for confrontation or arguments; just looking at others' views.

I know MY truth and I know what works for me. I'd like to think that I am not so shallow as to think "my way is the only way"; though I'm sure I can come across that way.

Andy F

Jlo34

Much of your view is in great opposition to mine. However, I am learning that to express my different views only invites diverse, confused and even evasive responses. And therefore I see little point in exploring this intensly.

**********************************************


I note in another post that Don S. was cordially reminded, by a forum leader, to keep his postings impersonal etc. I read his posts and they were not offensive, only different. I note that I notice repeatedly here, that people get personal, with veiled and open remarks calling people dry drunks, that they do not take the 12 steps because of their ego, that they get drunk because they won't believe in God. Noone pulls these comments up? Is that because you can be insulting as long as you share the majority view? How long would I last if I responded with fractionally as offensive remarks.

You may call me arguementative now, but if I was arguing with twice as much force for the 12 steps and God you would call me a solid member of AA.

Very few of you have given me direct honest answers to the questions I returned to your criticisms. Life is too short.

Dan

I didn't say you called Andy a dry drunk jlo. I said he was characterized as one.
You words are there, black on white.
The word member in quotation marks is also cute.
Regardless, I've said my peace here.
And I won't expect an answer to my question anytime soon.
Get a bunch of alcoholics together in a room, and what do you get?
Real life

jlo34

Andy,
Again, I am not calling or labeling ANYONE as a dry drunk. I am not trying to say that if you don't believe in a HP you will get drunk. It has been my experience from watching others come in the doors of AA and either: stay, relapse, or die.

Perhaps my perception wasn't correct about argumentativeness. I apologize if I perceived that wrongly.

You stated that you once believed and worked the steps - what changed? Truly and honestly, I'm trying to understand. I tend not to beat around the bush and suffer from "brutal honesty". Again, I do apologize if I have offended.

jlo34

Dan,
Member in quotation marks was not meant as cute or offensive. I placed member in quotation marks because I don't really feel that any of us are "members", moreso, a part of (which may be "technical" thinking or overanalyzing on my part and probably means exactly the same thing). I think of membership, I think of paying dues and having to follow strict rules - like a union. I do not see AA like that. Hence, "member" was not intended to be offensive. So again, I do apologize; in fact; since I am unable to correctly express my views without offending; I will just read this post and let my fingers be still.

Formally, I do apologize specifically to you Andy and anyone else I may have offended.

Jen

Andy F

jlo34

You are the final judge of what you meant and didn't mean, not me. My comments re. implied and open accusations of dry drunk are general and common in posts here. I was not singling you out. I don't feel the need to try and nail anyone, which is why I am equally happy to let go.

I make some points thats all. I ***** foot about a little bit here because we are not all equal. I listen to other peoples beliefs in AA and when it's my turn I tell my truth for me and I don't worry about it. I can't be kicked out of AA.

You ask what changed for me, why don't I work the steps. It makes sense to me not to.

Dan

We all have our perceptions jlo. I sure do!
And I wasn't offended by your comments at all. Rather, I was worried about much the same thing you are. What impression may be left with a newcomer of a lurker on this forum. I simply see as much value in Andy's message as I see in yours. Or Don's, for that matter. Where I get antsy is when we start pointing out our differences in such a way that we look like a bunch of quarreling, snot nosed kids.
We were good at that when we were loaded. Aren't we supposed to be different now?
Maybe I'm too sensitive. Dunno. Expressing ourselves with imperfect words, in an imperfect medium, is such a chore, when trying to carry a message of hope for freedom from addiction.
Peace.

Brookie

I've been woolgathering a little about why this is such an emotional topic, and its so difficult to discuss it dispassionately.

I think maybe it's because that many people in AA need to believe in a higher power, and often that belief comes hard won. Regardless whether God or whatever else one invests with those higher powers actually contributes anything, it's a foundation for many people's belief that they can be both sober and sane. Start chipping away at that belief, and it shouldn't be too surprising if there is a defensive reaction. I can empathise with that reaction, though I don't think you, Don S. or anyone else deserves to be attacked.

Just a theory. I've always enjoyed your posts as well as Don S.'s, although they are challenging. I hope you won't stop posting the contrarian view.

Peter

I too find this a valid question and (as I think another member suggested earlier) "bears further investigation."

How does the transformation occur without some kind of "Spiritual intervention?"

Whether we accept a Higher Power or not do we not accept spiritual laws when we practice HONESTY,FORGIVENESS,TOLERANCE,PATIENCE and HUMILITY?

Are we not in some way allowing "Spirituality" to work in our lives?

Is it not universally accepted that some of these elements can have a profound effect in helping the alcoholic to stay sober?

Andy F

Brookie

I understand the stabiltiy of AA may appear to be under attack and I also understand people have their legitimate more traditional views which are genuine to them.

And I tend to subscribe to your theory.

Andy F

Hi Peter

I only intend to talk for myself. My 'transformation' has occurred with a change in my thinking. I have done this with the help of other people who have showed me how to change my thinking.

I don't think that I need to identify with spirituality to choose to be honest, forgiving, tolerant and so on. I know athiests displaying these qualities. I confess however, I also don't see these values as necessary for sobriety. After sobering up, I have the freedom to make choices about how life makes sense to me. This may include religion or spirituality.

Your last statement 'Is it not universally accepted..etc'

I'll never forget the person that loved me even though even though I am a fallen, vulnerable, imperfect, confused etc. human being. They made my life, and those around me, far better for the example they gave me. They had a profound effect upon the quality of my self esteem. But had I not had the experience, a drink would not have made it better and I have stayed sober long time when others haven't because I don't want to drink even if my a$$ falls off.

respectfully

Andy F

GG733

An oldtimer at my home group has a saying,"nothing you will say will scare a newcomer off if he's serious about staying sober, and there's nothing you can say that will keep him around if he's not". Who's to say whats an example and whats not?!?

Music

I found myself thinking about this thread yesterday. I thought about the possibility of a memeber of a Catholic Church for instance, sitting amongst a group of parrishioners and spouting his beliefs about the positive aspects of abortion, gay marriage, and using contraception. I would think at the very least, he would definately draw some attention, and at the very most, be questioned about his beliefs and why if he believed that way, he was sitting in a Chatholic Church. What would be his point? Would this person be trying to start trouble? Would he be trying to draw attention to himself? Here we have a person sitting in an AA meeting, talking about how he doesn't work the steps and doesn't believe in a higher power. What's his point? What's his purpose? What's the entertainment value here? After an extended perioid of time in AA, and apparently having believed in a higher power at least in the beginning, and having worked the steps at least in the beginning, why announce that he's declared these vital parts of the AA program to be null and void in his sobriety? Then, to say that because he's in AA that noone has the right to question him about his beliefs???

Andy, you believe what you want to believe. I wish the very best for you, but the only reason I can that of that I would do something like this is to get some kind of vicarious thrill out of talking about how strong and powerful I am and watching the people around me squirm. If you choose to believe the way you do that's great, but instead of sitting in an AA meeting and taking up valuable time spouting your negative ideas, and giving the newcomer who might be listening the wrong information, why don't you just find a program where your beliefs might be appreciated?

Andy F

Hi Music

Thankyou for a more direct and honest reply about how you feel. Your analogy of a person sitting in a Catholic church spouting contrary views I hope you don't mind, I'm going to take as an indirect way of claiming I am doing the same illegitimate behaviour in AA. For this, I thankyou for expressing more closely how you truly feel.

I do not share the same view as you. AA is not only for people who are willing to follow spiritual lines and work the 12 steps. It is for anyone who wants to stop drinking. In my view, it is an assumption that to be an AA member requires conformity.

On a weekly basis I do not have the general problems of conflict at my home group, that you and others assume. I no longer live or have a home group in the area where I sobered up because I moved, but when I go back to my home area I meet members who have loved me for over 20 years, and we respect each others differing views.

You indicate that the only reason you can see for my attendance at AA would be for 'some kind of vicarious thrill', and wanting to make people squirm. You indicate (and assume) I talk negatively and take up valuable meeting time. And, hats off to you, you honestly admit you'd like me to go away (find a program where my beliefs are appreciated).

I am quite hurt (momentarily) and angry that you would say this. I am also glad that you at least expressed yourself more closely to honestly. Something not encouraged in AA. I don't dislike the whole you, only the bit of hypocrisy you represent. And of which I am too.

I go to AA because AA is not only for people with spiritual beliefs. I am an example of sobriety without supernatural reliance. I do not confront or challenge everything that everyone says. I am one member, who is unafraid and 'knows' that I do not have to answer to you or anyone else for my beliefs. Though, in the spirit of AA I may choose to explain myself to you if you ask me. I share as one member.

I have no problem with people expressing their anger or challenging my beliefs. But I am annoyed that you and others can spout such judgemental personal negativity upon my character and that's ok because you share the majority view, but when I respond to being criticised, I will be the one seen as argumentative.