continued from before
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 448
Originally Posted by DangerousDan
My reaction to such events is one of intolerance, and I don't like that.
Andy
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
In a nutshell, I wonder if I'm being too judgemental sometimes.
I once brought up the idea that the chapter titled "To Wives" in the big book might be renamed to reflect our world a little more accurately than it was seventy years ago.
The reaction of some in my home group (we're a fairly large gang) was as if I had proposed moving the papacy to Avignon once again... And I can live with that. What I can do without is the presumptive assertions leveled towards me.
I feel I need to be able to tolerate that more. So what I mean Andy, is that I think my disease manifests itself in my intolerance of these events, much as i think it is manifesting itself for these people who can't seem to be content to voice a contrary opinion without throwing in personal jabs.
My problem, or concern I should say, and I'm working on it.
I once brought up the idea that the chapter titled "To Wives" in the big book might be renamed to reflect our world a little more accurately than it was seventy years ago.
The reaction of some in my home group (we're a fairly large gang) was as if I had proposed moving the papacy to Avignon once again... And I can live with that. What I can do without is the presumptive assertions leveled towards me.
I feel I need to be able to tolerate that more. So what I mean Andy, is that I think my disease manifests itself in my intolerance of these events, much as i think it is manifesting itself for these people who can't seem to be content to voice a contrary opinion without throwing in personal jabs.
My problem, or concern I should say, and I'm working on it.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
The question was asked a few posts ago, "What's the worst thing that could happen?" "And if it did happen what would you do?" My answer to the worst thing is "I might start drinking again!" What would I do? I'd probably die drunk.
Don S ps--I don't think your continued sobriety depends on welcoming and accepting criticism. But I don't approach alcohol abuse as a character flaw. It's just behavior. In my opinion.
Don
My continued sobriety depends on "how" I welcome and accept criticism. Alcoholism is of course a behavior, as well as an addiction which is based in a flawed character. When I came to AA, I looked around and watched what was going on with the drunks around me. I chose to use the method that worked the bestest, for the mostest. To my knowledge, SMART, RR, and some of these other methods weren't in the picture then.
I've wondered sometimes what would happen if I changed my way of staying sober. Meetings do get to be kind of a pain in the butt sometimes, and listening to the same people saying the same things does get to be kind of boring sometimes, but you know what? I heard another old saying once. "If it's working, don't try to fix it!" AA has been working for me for a long time. I think I'll just keep taking the easier, softer way and stick with it.
Thanks again Andy for being willing to clarify your thoughts and feelings for me. I appreciate that and understand your point of view. I had that same outlook at one time, but that's another story. I may share it with you some time.
Don S ps--I don't think your continued sobriety depends on welcoming and accepting criticism. But I don't approach alcohol abuse as a character flaw. It's just behavior. In my opinion.
Don
My continued sobriety depends on "how" I welcome and accept criticism. Alcoholism is of course a behavior, as well as an addiction which is based in a flawed character. When I came to AA, I looked around and watched what was going on with the drunks around me. I chose to use the method that worked the bestest, for the mostest. To my knowledge, SMART, RR, and some of these other methods weren't in the picture then.
I've wondered sometimes what would happen if I changed my way of staying sober. Meetings do get to be kind of a pain in the butt sometimes, and listening to the same people saying the same things does get to be kind of boring sometimes, but you know what? I heard another old saying once. "If it's working, don't try to fix it!" AA has been working for me for a long time. I think I'll just keep taking the easier, softer way and stick with it.
Thanks again Andy for being willing to clarify your thoughts and feelings for me. I appreciate that and understand your point of view. I had that same outlook at one time, but that's another story. I may share it with you some time.
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Leave it up to a cranky oldtimer to show me something today.
He has a way of doing that sometimes.
How you welcome and accept criticism is very important! Learning to manage your emotional upsets is basic to behavioral approaches to sobriety. Gad--we may have more in common than we thought.
But now I'm confused. I thought rewriting the 12 steps was the 'easier softer way'-- at least, jlo said so. Now Music says following them is.
Maybe I need another cup of coffee.
Don
He has a way of doing that sometimes.
How you welcome and accept criticism is very important! Learning to manage your emotional upsets is basic to behavioral approaches to sobriety. Gad--we may have more in common than we thought.
But now I'm confused. I thought rewriting the 12 steps was the 'easier softer way'-- at least, jlo said so. Now Music says following them is.
Maybe I need another cup of coffee.
Don
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally Posted by Don S
Leave it up to a cranky oldtimer to show me something today.
He has a way of doing that sometimes.
How you welcome and accept criticism is very important! Learning to manage your emotional upsets is basic to behavioral approaches to sobriety. Gad--we may have more in common than we thought.
But now I'm confused. I thought rewriting the 12 steps was the 'easier softer way'-- at least, jlo said so. Now Music says following them is.
Maybe I need another cup of coffee.
Don
He has a way of doing that sometimes.
How you welcome and accept criticism is very important! Learning to manage your emotional upsets is basic to behavioral approaches to sobriety. Gad--we may have more in common than we thought.
But now I'm confused. I thought rewriting the 12 steps was the 'easier softer way'-- at least, jlo said so. Now Music says following them is.
Maybe I need another cup of coffee.
Don
I do think we have more in common than we think Don. We just took a little different path to get where we are. Like I said, since SMART, RR, and the more modern methods of getting sober weren't around when I came to AA, I went to AA. As I look back, I can see where my "dependence" upon AA has somewhat decreased over the years. That's not to say that's a bad thing. I think that's what's supposed to happen over time. As Rush Limbaugh puts it, "a bunch of mind numbed robots" is not what AA is all about. I believe that with time, working the AA program puts me where you and others are in your state of mind. I still find it comforting to believe that there's a Higher Power out there somewhere and that I don't have all the answers, but whereas I used to go to AA meetings on a daily basis, believeing that if I didn't I would surely get drunk, with the passage of time, I reached the point where the principles of AA have become a way of life for me and I'm not afraid of drinking any more. I still go to a meeting now and then but I've found that there are areas of my life that need attention, such as family, friends, work, play...etc. I do feel an inner strength as a result of learning new ways of dealing with life and it's every day problems. When I was drinking, alcohol was my way of dealing handling things. Alcohol was a dead end road for me. So, to each his own. What works, works.
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Originally Posted by Andy F
Peter
I would tell you straight if I was accusing you of favourism. And I have not.
I appreciate your comments about posting. Whilst this is not AA and we are not all equal, I appreciate, so far, a greater liklihood to explore non-conforming views.
Thanks
Andy F
I would tell you straight if I was accusing you of favourism. And I have not.
I appreciate your comments about posting. Whilst this is not AA and we are not all equal, I appreciate, so far, a greater liklihood to explore non-conforming views.
Thanks
Andy F
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: El Paso, Tx
Posts: 5,862
Originally Posted by Music
"CRANKY???" Who the hell's CRANKY? I'm not CRANKY!! Maybe I've had too much coffee??....Ha!
I do think we have more in common than we think Don. We just took a little different path to get where we are. Like I said, since SMART, RR, and the more modern methods of getting sober weren't around when I came to AA, I went to AA. As I look back, I can see where my "dependence" upon AA has somewhat decreased over the years. That's not to say that's a bad thing. I think that's what's supposed to happen over time. As Rush Limbaugh puts it, "a bunch of mind numbed robots" is not what AA is all about. I believe that with time, working the AA program puts me where you and others are in your state of mind. I still find it comforting to believe that there's a Higher Power out there somewhere and that I don't have all the answers, but whereas I used to go to AA meetings on a daily basis, believeing that if I didn't I would surely get drunk, with the passage of time, I reached the point where the principles of AA have become a way of life for me and I'm not afraid of drinking any more. I still go to a meeting now and then but I've found that there are areas of my life that need attention, such as family, friends, work, play...etc. I do feel an inner strength as a result of learning new ways of dealing with life and it's every day problems. When I was drinking, alcohol was my way of dealing handling things. Alcohol was a dead end road for me. So, to each his own. What works, works.
I do think we have more in common than we think Don. We just took a little different path to get where we are. Like I said, since SMART, RR, and the more modern methods of getting sober weren't around when I came to AA, I went to AA. As I look back, I can see where my "dependence" upon AA has somewhat decreased over the years. That's not to say that's a bad thing. I think that's what's supposed to happen over time. As Rush Limbaugh puts it, "a bunch of mind numbed robots" is not what AA is all about. I believe that with time, working the AA program puts me where you and others are in your state of mind. I still find it comforting to believe that there's a Higher Power out there somewhere and that I don't have all the answers, but whereas I used to go to AA meetings on a daily basis, believeing that if I didn't I would surely get drunk, with the passage of time, I reached the point where the principles of AA have become a way of life for me and I'm not afraid of drinking any more. I still go to a meeting now and then but I've found that there are areas of my life that need attention, such as family, friends, work, play...etc. I do feel an inner strength as a result of learning new ways of dealing with life and it's every day problems. When I was drinking, alcohol was my way of dealing handling things. Alcohol was a dead end road for me. So, to each his own. What works, works.
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 448
Originally Posted by GoldenGutters
Andy, is your story in the "Your Recovery Story" forum??? I'd love to read it!
regards
Andy F
Last edited by Andy F; 01-30-2005 at 08:42 AM. Reason: spelling
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Hello all--Forgive me for butting in, but I have been viewing this thread through out its entirety and have been fascinated by the conversation. The main thing I have felt while reading is an intense gratitude that we are not all the same. How boring would this world be if we were? I consider myself a spiritual person, and always have, but for me, living by spiritual principles means respecting other people's views and opinions.
Dan, as a relative new-comer myself, I can completely relate to your resistance to voicing differing views in a traditional AA meeting. IMHO, meetings are not the place to do so. I think straying too far from the original purpose of AA in any meeting endangers the future of AA and its ability to be successful for still-suffering alcoholics. However, I know there are many people who recognize the patriarchal and primarily Christian language of the first 162 pages of the big-book. This is where personal interpretation comes in. "Take what you need and leave the rest." I often speak with my sponsor and other "members" about my beliefs concerning these issues, and insofaras I continue to stay sober, no one has belittled or criticized me for voicing these opinions.
I am grateful for this thread and any others which challenge traditional thinking. I think it is good for newcomers to understand that you can have views differing from the mainstream in AA or any other recovery program and still be able to get sober.
Peace--
Dan, as a relative new-comer myself, I can completely relate to your resistance to voicing differing views in a traditional AA meeting. IMHO, meetings are not the place to do so. I think straying too far from the original purpose of AA in any meeting endangers the future of AA and its ability to be successful for still-suffering alcoholics. However, I know there are many people who recognize the patriarchal and primarily Christian language of the first 162 pages of the big-book. This is where personal interpretation comes in. "Take what you need and leave the rest." I often speak with my sponsor and other "members" about my beliefs concerning these issues, and insofaras I continue to stay sober, no one has belittled or criticized me for voicing these opinions.
I am grateful for this thread and any others which challenge traditional thinking. I think it is good for newcomers to understand that you can have views differing from the mainstream in AA or any other recovery program and still be able to get sober.
Peace--
Last edited by lulu70; 01-30-2005 at 09:24 AM. Reason: added something
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
This article is a thorough overview of AA and its critics, and it touches on some of the themes in this thread:
http://radar.smh.com.au/archives/200...at_the_pa.html
Don S
http://radar.smh.com.au/archives/200...at_the_pa.html
Don S
Grateful recovering alcoholic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Blissfield, MI
Posts: 814
Ok...I've taken a few days off!!!
This has been an excellent thread. I find myself thinking about everyone's opinion as they have written it and considering the different thoughts and noticing that I have been looking with more open eyes at those around me.
I do want to say that I do appreciate and respect your position(s) Andy and Don. I can't say that I totally understand them, but I do appreciate them.
I went to my 12&12 study today and we read and discussed Tradition 3: The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. I don't believe I have ever read it from the 12&12 before and as we were reading I immediately thought of this thread and thought of you (Don and Andy). I chuckled a bit to myself. I may be bringing up yet more controversy (LOL) but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in!!
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, just as not everyone works the program (AA) the same. I know what keeps me sober may get someone else drunk.
I had kind of a weird experience today, actually. A gal I've known for a long time who's been coming to meetings off and on for the last several years was at a meeting today (noon). She asked me after the meeting if I'd give her a ride home. I said sure, she updated me on her kids and what was going on in her life, then decided that instead of driving her 15 miles out of my way I could drop her off at the bar a 1/2 mile from the meeting and she could "borrow her friend's car and drive home". She enlightened me with that after we had already left, so I did! I dropped her off at the bar and immediately left (didn't wait to see if she was staying or leaving). Never done that before!!!
Anyway - great thread; I've enjoyed reading it.
Jen
This has been an excellent thread. I find myself thinking about everyone's opinion as they have written it and considering the different thoughts and noticing that I have been looking with more open eyes at those around me.
I do want to say that I do appreciate and respect your position(s) Andy and Don. I can't say that I totally understand them, but I do appreciate them.
I went to my 12&12 study today and we read and discussed Tradition 3: The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. I don't believe I have ever read it from the 12&12 before and as we were reading I immediately thought of this thread and thought of you (Don and Andy). I chuckled a bit to myself. I may be bringing up yet more controversy (LOL) but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in!!
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, just as not everyone works the program (AA) the same. I know what keeps me sober may get someone else drunk.
I had kind of a weird experience today, actually. A gal I've known for a long time who's been coming to meetings off and on for the last several years was at a meeting today (noon). She asked me after the meeting if I'd give her a ride home. I said sure, she updated me on her kids and what was going on in her life, then decided that instead of driving her 15 miles out of my way I could drop her off at the bar a 1/2 mile from the meeting and she could "borrow her friend's car and drive home". She enlightened me with that after we had already left, so I did! I dropped her off at the bar and immediately left (didn't wait to see if she was staying or leaving). Never done that before!!!
Anyway - great thread; I've enjoyed reading it.
Jen
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 448
Originally Posted by jlo34
I know what keeps me sober may get someone else drunk.
Jen
Jen
I appreciated your post and other stuff about you.
Andy F
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