Peter

[QUOTE I am also glad that you at least expressed yourself more closely to honestly. Something not encouraged in AA. [/QUOTE]

I am sorry Andy but I am losing you here.

What do you mean by: "Honesty is not something encouraged in AA?"

Are you implying that some kind of censorship goes on in the halls of AA?

You have been sober now for some 22 years (apparently through some process of AA) and you apparently place a very high value on "Honesty"

I am a little confused as to why you have remained with a fellowship for so long when it seems to go against so many of your values.

If AA has kept you sober for 22 years then it would seem to me that you would at least be a little more inclined to highlight some of the "positive" aspects of AA.

It is not hard to see why some people might be questioning your motives.

No one here is trying to shut you down or shut you out and the other member who might have been "direct" with you has already apologized so I think you can drop the martyr thing for a second.

You were the one who decided to persue this discussion and you seem to have gotten a lot of peoples attention but when you say things like "Honesty,not encouraged in AA" I think you have a bit more explaining to do.

Music

You're welcome Andy. However, you said "illegitimate" not me.


The long form of the third tradition which you like so much to quote says the following: "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation." Again, you are assuming you know my motives for asking questions and again, you seem like you have to defend your position.


As alcoholics, we have one (1) primary purpose. That is to "carry the message to alcoholics who are still suffering." What is the message you transmit to the alcoholic who still suffers? And again, you assume that I'm saying that you should "go away." Defensive???

Honesty is encouraged in AA or have you not read "How It Works" in chapter five? Maybe you can enlighten me as to the "hypocrisy" I represent. Am I hypocritical by asking you to explain yourself? Furthermore, if you're hurt and angry because of what I say, that's on you my friend. Maybe you should talk about that at a meeting or contact your sponsor and discuss the possibility of a resentment.

You're right Andy. You don't have to answer to me or anyone else, at least at this point. Supernatural reliance??? Self-reliance maybe. And I know how that worked for me.

Andy, your beliefs are not worth me getting angry. I haven't seen anyone here "spout judgemental personal negativity" upon your character. If someone came out and said you were "wrong" for believeing the way you do, I'd say something to them too. I haven't seen that here. Questions...yes! As with the person in the church, what do you expect? People are bound to be a little skeptical and critical of such opposite views. But you already know that don't you? I'd just like to know how what worked to get you sober in the beginning isn't/doesn't work now. What brought about the huge change, or did you never believe in a higher power or working the steps?

Thanks for your indulgence Andy. That's a credit to your character IMO.

CAPTAINZING2000

Peter,

I'm lucky my home groups and the local area AA has good people in it. I've heard of people telling about AA groups that are more personalities then principles. We had a couple in my home groups that ran off a lot of people with their smug attitutudes. Funny thing is, the wife was nutty then a fruit cake, the guy started catting around and split with another woman right b 4 he relapsed

We do have to remember above all else, we are sick people trying to get well. I had good moral values instilled in me growing up. Sad thing is, a lot of people didn't or, don't possess them

Cap3

Stay...green.
If I'm ..ripe..I'll,rot...lol

Andy F

I am not going to repeat all the same points I have already made.

I would have liked to seen one issue through. Unfortunately, their are several questions going on simultaneously and much of what I return is not acknowledged.

Peter

I don't know how to do the multiple quote thing in posts, please bear that in mind.

What I appreciated in Music's previous post was that he came close to expressing his anger at me. There was an analogy of the Catholic church and someone spouting negative stuff. Expressing anger is often discouraged in AA (please stay with the principle of what I am saying and not the semantics) This was the honesty I admired. When I came to AA I was very angry. I learnt to be ashamed of this anger. I thought I dealt with it, but I suppressed it. Acknowledging anger without judgement is the first step to it's resolution. Anger exists naturally in me as an imperfect human being. I thought it was great that Music appeared to be expressing his angry feelings towards me through the Catholic Church etc. My apologies Music if I read this wrong. I don't want to start another thread on anger here. This honest expression of anger is what I said is not generally encouraged in AA.

With regard to your personal statement and assumption that I am being a Martyr, I pointed this out only to highlight the hypocrisy that is evident on these boards, in AA, in myself, and in human nature. I don't think i have made the point well, but it is in this thread. You see how it is ok for you to call me a Martyr, but how would it be if I said something similar to you? What is evident to me, after seeing a previous post where Don S. was reminded to be respectful of other peoples views and not be personal, is that the majority, whilst being sensitive to their own beliefs, don't even see the veiled, implied personal and disrespectful name calling (dry drunk, ego, ad infinitum) that they do. This is ok because it is the general, view shared by most. I was not and am not singling out you or Jlo34 for special attention, neither does it bother me. I was trying to point out, positively, from a learning point of view, a type of hypocrisy. As I said, in my view, it's natural and in AA and human nature.

I'm not going to address your other points because I feel this post is too long. Though I will if it is important to you. I am conscious of several accusations of attention seeking, when in fact, I am angry with responding to criticism and not exploring something with mutual respect. I actually can't wait to get off this thread.

And btw, I can't argue on my own.

all the best

Andy

Andy F

This was why I said AA is not only for people willing to believe in spiritual principles. Thankyou for putting down the third tradition of which I am a fan.

I don't know how to do multiple quotes so if you have asked other questions in your last offering I'll have to post again.

Andy F

[/QUOTE]

As alcoholics, we have one (1) primary purpose. That is to "carry the message to alcoholics who are still suffering." What is the message you transmit to the alcoholic who still suffers? And again, you assume that I'm saying that you should "go away." Defensive???

[/QUOTE]

I thought our primary purpose was 'to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety'.

I don't want to rise or buy into the other stuff.

CAPTAINZING2000

Andy,

I Don't Recall Reading R U Going To Meetings Now? I Don't Think, I'd B Going If There Were A Resentment. I'm Sure If, There Were Other Meetings To Your Liking You'd Have Been To Them.

Care To Talk About Meetings Over There? I Wonder, How Much They Differ From Ours In The States?

Chris

Andy F

Ok Captainzing2000

I have been to a few meetings in the States around Los Angeles and Sacramento. That was around 1991 with my then wife who sobered up in LA. The main difference is your meetings are sixty minutes long and often end in the Lords prayer, UK meetings typically are 90 minutes long and end in the Serenity prayer.

elizabeth1979

I went to an AA Meeting last night with my fiance in the program...where the topic was the 12 steps without religion. Someone said something I thought was interesting.he said he was not religious enough to even be agnostic (?)...that his Higher Power was the 12 steps and the inner drive to be sane.

I thought it was interesting anyway.

Music

Andy,
Once again, as I stated before, your views are not important enough for me to agry about.
Secondly, when you carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers, what message do you carry. The one about how you got sober, or the one about how you're staying sober. Or, maybe they're both the same, and I missed that point.
I'm not arguing with you Andy. I'm really curious about why a higher power and the steps have become seemingly unimportant to you and yet they are the basis of the AA philosophy and quality sobriety at least as I know it. What brought about the change in your thinking, or have you been without a higher power and the steps from the beginning?
By the way, I'm not a Catholic. I just used the Catholic church as an analogy.

CAPTAINZING2000

Well as Andy said above traditon 3 says the only requirement. {NO STRINGS ATTTACHED} is the desire to stop drinking. I don't care what party you vote for, I don't care what church you go to, I don't care what you do in your bedroom. My only reason for going to AA is to stay sober and get the newcomer to stay around long enough {forgive me Andy for the miracle to happen}

Andy, lol darn shame we didn't get the chance to put a few pints down back in the day


chris

Brookie

I kind of identify with that. Step two only requires a willingness to believe in a power that's greater than one's self. I'm willing, and I know I'm not in control of the universe, but that doesn't mean I believe in a conscious diety that picked my height and weight, knows my social security number, and cares whether I drink today or not. What's helped me along this far is the fellowship, opening up to others, and getting to know others who care about my sobriety. For now, that's enough to qualify as God "as I understand him."

I don't know if that's "spiritual" growth or not, but nobody's threatened to kick me out because of the limits of my belief.

Don S

Since this was posted in another thread, but is being referred to here, I thought I'd repost the 12 Steps as rewritten by the Agnostic AA group.
The link is http://www.agnosticAAnyc.org/
The comment was made by jlo that this 'is NOT AA'. Really?
-----------------
Agnostic Twelve Steps
For agnostics who would like to work the steps, this version of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous provides slightly different wording of the six steps that make reference to God or a Higher Power. This version of the Twelve Steps seems to have originated in agnostic A.A. groups in California.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.
[Original: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.]

3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
[Original: Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.]

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
[Original: Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.]

6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
[Original: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.]

7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
[Original: Humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.]

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.
[Original: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.]

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Don S

B.F. Skinner's 12 Steps are another alternative.

from the Minnesota Recovery Page.
---------------------------------------------------
I include the following for Humanist, agnostic and atheist alcoholics who, like myself, find it intellectually impossible to subscribe to any program which relies so heavily on a belief in a god, "A Humanist Alternative to A.A.'s 12 Steps" by B. F. Skinner (Harvard University Scientist) From July/August 1987 Humanist Magazine.

1. We accept the fact that all of our efforts to stop drinking have failed.

2. We believe that we must turn elsewhere for help.

3. We turn to our fellow men and women, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

4. We have made a list of the situations in which we are most likely to drink.

5. We ask our friends to help us avoid those situations.

6. We are ready to accept the help they give us.

7. We earnestly hope that they will help.

8. We have made a list of the persons we have harmed and to whom we hope to make amends.

9. We shall do all we can to make amends, in any way which will not cause further harm.

10. We will continue to make such list and revise them as needed.

11. We appreciate what our friends have done and are doing to help us.

12. We, in turn, are ready to help others who may come to us in the same way.

Peter

What is your motive for starting this thread?

Did you start it to profess your own belief that recovery is possible in AA WITHOUT WORKING THE STEPS or are you now determined to expose some kind of "favoritism" being expressed by this forum leader towards members sympathetic to my own values.

If you think I am guilty of this then I can only say that you have not read enough of my posts to understand how hard I try to be as impartial as possible.

However, if I am guilty of favoritism then I must ask you to please dispense some of the "honesty" that you so resoundingly applaud Music for and just come outright and say it.

If I am guilty I would most certainly want it brought to my attention so I can check myself.

Furthermore Andy,I am unsure of why you would make this accusation when in post #26 on this thread I indirectly came to your defense when I though another member referred to you as a "drydrunk".

Don S

The Original Six Steps of A.A.

Prior to Bill Wilson's composition of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, early A.A. groups used a program that Bill Wilson later described like this:

"Although subject to considerable variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent procedure which comprised six steps. These were approximately as follows:

1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over alcohol.

2. We made a preliminary moral inventory of our defects or sins.

3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence.

4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our drinking.

5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward in money or prestige.

6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to practice these precepts.

This was the substance of what, by the fall of 1938, we were telling newcomers."

— Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age: A Brief History of A.A. New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., 1957, page 160.

Andy F

Music

I understand you are not a Catholic and you were using an analogy.

You asked me.

I believe that I have learnt (in detail) that the 12 steps are an almost paralel program to that of the Oxford Groups, an evangelical Christian religious movement from which Bill W. and Dr Bob learned their beliefs. No more detail for the sake of simplicity.

For years I watched the behaviour of myself and those around me in AA and thought that their behaviour and life was not improved by professed beliefs in God and HPs, but I didn't know why I thought that or what the alternative might be.

Contrary to some, my experience is that I have seen people professing belief in God get drunk and some who rob banks stay sober.

For many and me, believing in a higher power in the beginning is like when you start smoking. You have to choke on it awhile until you get used to the idea, then you forget you ever choked on it. It defies their logic and they have to bash themselves like a square peg into a round hole. Their natural resistance to accepting the steps as a necessary means to sobriety is met with comments about ego, denial, dry drunk etc. They are led to believe that they must get some form of higher power.

In my opinion, I only thought I got sober with a higher power. What kept me sober at AA was mixing with other people who shared the same primary purpose and the very crude change of thinking I managed to get on my own towards alcohol. If I had tried to do it alone, days, weeks, months later I would have forgotten, rationalised away my thinking and believed I was normal again and tried drinking.

Because I was unknowingly following a traditional evangelical (sorry) program, I did not properly deal with the many originating issues to me as a person. Anger, money etc. I viewed things from the guilty 'moral' stance, typical of religious programs. I find many things in the program unhelpful and a hinderence to recovery.

My message or example is one of a single individual who goes to AA and is not afraid, not coerced, into this program or the pressure from those perpetuating it. Though I do respect the rights of conventional/conforming members.

If AA is only for people wanting or enquiring etc about a spiritual resolution, then I do not belong there. However, I don't believe it is. I think the next 20 years will see many changes regarding recovery as more people stop praying for sobriety and start looking at their thinking behaviour. How advanced we would be if we spent so much energy exploring cognitve methods instead of feeling guilty because we have a temper or fancy the next door neighbour. lol.

I recently went to a seminar on Sigmund Frued, the father of psychoanalysis who referred to Carl Jung as the 'Crown Prince'. Increasingly in colleges here, Freud is being categorised under cultural studies as opposed to psychoanalysis. This is because, in the main, his originating thoughts, which spawned modern psychanalysis as we know it have since been developed upon and his views are not taken quite as seriously as before. When Sigmund Freud was practicing, there were 11,000 prostitutes in London, under the age of 11. Society grows.

regards

Andy F

Don S

-------------------------------------
The Original Twelve Steps of A.A.
Bill Wilson's first draft of the Twelve Steps did not include the phrases "Power greater than ourselves" or "as we understood Him." Here's one historian's recreation of these steps:

"Half measures will avail you nothing. You stand at the turning point. Throw yourself under God's protection and care with complete abandon.

Now we think you can take it! Here are the steps we took — our program of recovery:

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.

Came to believe that God could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care of God.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly on our knees asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual experience as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs."

— Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous, expanded edition. Center City, MN: Hazeldon, 1991, page 70.

Don S

If every American Catholic who disagreed with the church position on those issues -- or just on the issue of contraception -- were to leave, the membership would drop by well over 50%.

Presumably they have other reasons for continuing to attend that church, just as people continue to attend AA meetings even when they find themselves unable to fully embrace the philosophy. If there are others there who are ambivalent about the philosophy of AA but who find the group support useful, I imagine they'd find some comfort in knowing they're not alone.

Don S