Religion is just making things harder for me
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 727
Thank you Music...The AA program works if you work it.Openmindness.Willingness.Honesty are the keys..Those who have isssues with the program have simply made a choice to have issues with it....This has nothing to do with the program of itself.Its simply a choice of another to find issues,with the program.
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
WHEN IN ROME
I was so beat up coming into AA I was willing to do what was suggested. After years of having my life become normal, I feel it's our responsibility to do the 12th step in all of our affairs.
I wouldn't pretend to know all the answers. how many of us do have all the right answers .
like any organization, I've stayed in AA because I do believe in the AA preamble. By helping others my life gets rewarded. How many of you have sat back and enjoyed watching someone get their lives back on track?
For the people that Queston AA no one makes you stay or do like we say. AA is working for us. Iwas the sickest ans meanest M?F in the valley b 4 AA. My soul desire in life was my immoral pleasures. There was nothing there in my soul. After a lot of soul searching, I've returned to my roots. I now know, the only way of having peace inside myself is but to turn my life over to the care of God.
To those in here that say that God doesn't exist that's your right. I tried it without God. My life was a mess. I get up every day thanking God for 1 more day of life. Every day of living is a gift. It took 30 years of wasted time to finally realize, I'm on a path to hell.
This is what millions of us believe in AA that, the program is God given. If you have decided you want what we have and our willing to go to any lengths. There's nothing any one can say in AA to make someone stay sober. Every person coming into AA has to do the foot work, that's why we have the steps.
I do recall, the preamble says "AA IS NOT ALLIED WITH ANY SECT OR DENOMINATION"
I wouldn't be in AA if, someone's church doctorine was being pushed at me
I was so beat up coming into AA I was willing to do what was suggested. After years of having my life become normal, I feel it's our responsibility to do the 12th step in all of our affairs.
I wouldn't pretend to know all the answers. how many of us do have all the right answers .
like any organization, I've stayed in AA because I do believe in the AA preamble. By helping others my life gets rewarded. How many of you have sat back and enjoyed watching someone get their lives back on track?
For the people that Queston AA no one makes you stay or do like we say. AA is working for us. Iwas the sickest ans meanest M?F in the valley b 4 AA. My soul desire in life was my immoral pleasures. There was nothing there in my soul. After a lot of soul searching, I've returned to my roots. I now know, the only way of having peace inside myself is but to turn my life over to the care of God.
To those in here that say that God doesn't exist that's your right. I tried it without God. My life was a mess. I get up every day thanking God for 1 more day of life. Every day of living is a gift. It took 30 years of wasted time to finally realize, I'm on a path to hell.
This is what millions of us believe in AA that, the program is God given. If you have decided you want what we have and our willing to go to any lengths. There's nothing any one can say in AA to make someone stay sober. Every person coming into AA has to do the foot work, that's why we have the steps.
I do recall, the preamble says "AA IS NOT ALLIED WITH ANY SECT OR DENOMINATION"
I wouldn't be in AA if, someone's church doctorine was being pushed at me
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 448
Jlo34
I appreciate your point of view. Thankyou for listening to mine.
Music
You say you ask why people unwilling to believe in a higher power are at AA. I would ask, why are you concerned? I was only ever concerned with the behaviour of others when I wanted to regulate it in accordance with my own beliefs and expectations. Do you think I ought to explain myself about why I go every week to my home group, a step meeting by the way, when I refuse to believe that a higher power is necessary for recovery? When you ask people who do not conform why they are there, is it because you think they shouldn't be? Do people having different opinions anger you?
Do you think the multitude can go around encouraging people to believe in God, saying things like it doesn't matter what God you have etc. and putting down any resistance, but people like me should not voice my own beliefs at all, certainly not in AA?
For the record. The only question your entitled to ask anyone at a closed AA meeting is if they have a desire to stop drinking. Beyond this, their reasons for going are strictly their business.
Everyone in AA is equal. My point of view and beliefs are as significant as anyone elses in AA. And of course vice-versa. I apologise if I have forgotten this at any point.
regards
Andy F
I appreciate your point of view. Thankyou for listening to mine.
Music
You say you ask why people unwilling to believe in a higher power are at AA. I would ask, why are you concerned? I was only ever concerned with the behaviour of others when I wanted to regulate it in accordance with my own beliefs and expectations. Do you think I ought to explain myself about why I go every week to my home group, a step meeting by the way, when I refuse to believe that a higher power is necessary for recovery? When you ask people who do not conform why they are there, is it because you think they shouldn't be? Do people having different opinions anger you?
Do you think the multitude can go around encouraging people to believe in God, saying things like it doesn't matter what God you have etc. and putting down any resistance, but people like me should not voice my own beliefs at all, certainly not in AA?
For the record. The only question your entitled to ask anyone at a closed AA meeting is if they have a desire to stop drinking. Beyond this, their reasons for going are strictly their business.
Everyone in AA is equal. My point of view and beliefs are as significant as anyone elses in AA. And of course vice-versa. I apologise if I have forgotten this at any point.
regards
Andy F
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
Andy,
you and I had this discussion about a year ago. Tradition 3 the only requirement is a desire. I can see with the steps written as such it's conflicting with your beliefs. I wouldn't dare shove my views down your throat. I respect a nonbelievers rights. I've seen non believers with a lt more serenity then a lot of church goers.
I will say this, some of the most serene people I've ever met have very strong beliefs in God and an after life. I've had a spiritual awakening. I'm here to tell you from every fiber of my being that there is a power that does control this world that we know.
I've had too many miracles in my own life to not believe.
you and I had this discussion about a year ago. Tradition 3 the only requirement is a desire. I can see with the steps written as such it's conflicting with your beliefs. I wouldn't dare shove my views down your throat. I respect a nonbelievers rights. I've seen non believers with a lt more serenity then a lot of church goers.
I will say this, some of the most serene people I've ever met have very strong beliefs in God and an after life. I've had a spiritual awakening. I'm here to tell you from every fiber of my being that there is a power that does control this world that we know.
I've had too many miracles in my own life to not believe.
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Beaver, WA
Posts: 1,346
Andy F - For the record. The only question your entitled to ask anyone at a closed AA meeting is if they have a desire to stop drinking. Beyond this, their reasons for going are strictly their business.
It is my understanding that I am entitled to ask any question I so choose at an open, or a closed A.A. meeting. Just for the record, I often do ask many questions. I'm also aware that my expectations for getting an honest answer or response is not mandatory either.
Everyone in AA is equal. My point of view and beliefs are as significant as anyone elses in AA. And of course vice-versa. I apologise if I have forgotten this at any point.
Back to the original post on this thread though -
wild1forever - Encouragement anyone? I love my husband and my kids more than anything/anyone on the planet, and I want to WANT TO stop this destructive behavior. Once again, here I am crying again.
wild1forever - Music, you really made me think AND laugh at the same time. I cannot overestimate how much your post helped me out this evening!
I am happy to report that I spoke with some wonderful, wonderful friends this afternoon. Thanks to them and thanks to you all, I have stopped beating myself up, for the time being anyway.
It sure feels great to not be drunk.
I am happy to report that I spoke with some wonderful, wonderful friends this afternoon. Thanks to them and thanks to you all, I have stopped beating myself up, for the time being anyway.
It sure feels great to not be drunk.
wild1forever - Hi all--
Good news and bad news.
Good news is that I did go to an AA meeting today. (Not the 6:00 AM meeting, but I did make it to the noon meeting.)
Bad news is that I heard almost nothing I could relate to. (I haven't been hospitalized for 15 suicide attempts. I haven't lost a marriage. Granted, these things could happen in the future, but I'm trying to find a support system for where I am today, and these people aren't it. Although I greatly appreciated their honesty.)
Good news is that I got a phone number.
Good news is that I haven't given up.
Good news and bad news.
Good news is that I did go to an AA meeting today. (Not the 6:00 AM meeting, but I did make it to the noon meeting.)
Bad news is that I heard almost nothing I could relate to. (I haven't been hospitalized for 15 suicide attempts. I haven't lost a marriage. Granted, these things could happen in the future, but I'm trying to find a support system for where I am today, and these people aren't it. Although I greatly appreciated their honesty.)
Good news is that I got a phone number.
Good news is that I haven't given up.
wild1forever -I think that "taking what I need and leaving the rest" is greatly reducing my confusion...or, more accurately, my anxiety over my confusion. Does that make sense?
This has been a very good morning. Somehow I woke up feeling "healed", as though at that very moment, someone was thinking about or praying for me. I am thankful to be here today and to be sober!
This has been a very good morning. Somehow I woke up feeling "healed", as though at that very moment, someone was thinking about or praying for me. I am thankful to be here today and to be sober!
No smirk or chuckle when I choose a lightbulb either. He did smile when I went to one too many candlelight meetings and called him up afterwards to tell him I was changing my specific HP to WHATEVER and continuing forward with the next Step. I personally got on my knees and did a Third Step prayer again. I started then to "question" my own belief system more thoroughly and have not had a desire to drink since. Guess that is similar to your feeling "healed". Something, WHATEVER, HP, or GOD is working very well indeed & I enjoy continuing to build that relationship no matter how haltingly day by day.
wild1forever-Hi all--
I am working through (or perhaps "slogging through", lol) stuff. It's so nice to be reminded of the nice things you all have said to me.
I have backed off on my Bible study for the time being. I did go to church yesterday, which was great. I am a Catholic; our pastor is just a great man who I have learned a lot from. I always feel a sense of relief when I walk in there. For the longest time, Father Matt was also the only person whom I confided in about my drinking problems. So anyway, that was a positive experience.
It was the Bible study that was putting me over the edge. I probably will return, but not this week (classes are Tuesday morning). Please keep reminding me to take care of myself.
(((HUGS TO EVERYONE)))
I am working through (or perhaps "slogging through", lol) stuff. It's so nice to be reminded of the nice things you all have said to me.
I have backed off on my Bible study for the time being. I did go to church yesterday, which was great. I am a Catholic; our pastor is just a great man who I have learned a lot from. I always feel a sense of relief when I walk in there. For the longest time, Father Matt was also the only person whom I confided in about my drinking problems. So anyway, that was a positive experience.
It was the Bible study that was putting me over the edge. I probably will return, but not this week (classes are Tuesday morning). Please keep reminding me to take care of myself.
(((HUGS TO EVERYONE)))
A good reminder for me everytime I share that experience another.
((((((((Wild1Forever))))))))))
Kiss Heart of Spirit In Love & Service,
3 Legacy
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Thanks for you comments Andy.
My understanding of the steps is that they are spiritual in nature and by practicing them on a daily basis to the best of my ability, I will become happy and usefully whole. At least, that's what the book says. You should know this if you attend a step study group. Question: Which of the steps, excluding the first step is without spirituality? Every step as far as I can tell is based on the existance of a spirtual being, a Higher Power, or if you choose, the God of one's understanding. So, if a person comes to AA and isn't willing to work the AA program in it's entirety, why are they sitting in an AA meeting? Does this person believe sobriety will just kind of rub off through osmosis or something?
I came to AA having run my life using every method I could come up with. Nothing was working. I had to try something else or drink again. My way wasn't working. I had all the answers and no clue what the question was.
After several years in AA, I've learned one of the causes of my anger is expectations. I try very hard to not expect anything of anyone with one exception. I expect me to ask for and be grateful for any help I receive from my Higher Power in my quest for continued sobriety.
If I'm asked a question, as we all were on this thread, I give the answer I believe to be honest, and one that is in the spirit of sharing my experience. If I'm asked help, or to share my experiece and the person asking wants to argue, I'm within my rights to ask them simply, "why are you here." Either that person is here for help, or they're here to argue. I will not argue with them. If they want to argue, they obviously have all the answers and therefore are on their own.
Thanks again Andy.
My understanding of the steps is that they are spiritual in nature and by practicing them on a daily basis to the best of my ability, I will become happy and usefully whole. At least, that's what the book says. You should know this if you attend a step study group. Question: Which of the steps, excluding the first step is without spirituality? Every step as far as I can tell is based on the existance of a spirtual being, a Higher Power, or if you choose, the God of one's understanding. So, if a person comes to AA and isn't willing to work the AA program in it's entirety, why are they sitting in an AA meeting? Does this person believe sobriety will just kind of rub off through osmosis or something?
I came to AA having run my life using every method I could come up with. Nothing was working. I had to try something else or drink again. My way wasn't working. I had all the answers and no clue what the question was.
After several years in AA, I've learned one of the causes of my anger is expectations. I try very hard to not expect anything of anyone with one exception. I expect me to ask for and be grateful for any help I receive from my Higher Power in my quest for continued sobriety.
If I'm asked a question, as we all were on this thread, I give the answer I believe to be honest, and one that is in the spirit of sharing my experience. If I'm asked help, or to share my experiece and the person asking wants to argue, I'm within my rights to ask them simply, "why are you here." Either that person is here for help, or they're here to argue. I will not argue with them. If they want to argue, they obviously have all the answers and therefore are on their own.
Thanks again Andy.
FORGIVEN!!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Gaston Oregon
Posts: 199
Originally Posted by Music
I've run into people at meetings who refuse to accept the concept of a higher power let alone the idea of there being a God. To these people I ask, "why are you here?" One would assume that when a person comes to AA where the majority of people in attendance believe in a higher power, that the person is at least willing to accept the idea of a power greater than themselves. IMO when a person(like myself)comes to AA, they have a problem which to them has no solution at least thus far. I asked, "how do I stay sober?" My sponsor said I should work at developing a relationship with a power greater than myself of my choosing. When I argued with my sponsor, he just very quietly asked me why I was sitting in an AA meeting if I already had all the answers. He said, "apparently we just don't realize who you think you are."
I don't pity people who don't choose to believe in a power great than themselves. I also don't sympathize with that same person when they come back complaining about not being able to stop drinking. To the person who won't accept the idea of being powerless over alcohol, who won't accept the idea of there being a God or at the very least, a power greater than themselves I ask, "why are you here?" "Why aren't you out having a beer or two while you figure this thing out?" "After all, being as powerful as you are, not to mention all knowing, and all caring, I would think you'd be able to figure this thing out on your own." These same people would be the ones who would go to the doctor, so sick they couldn't walk and start to tell the doctor how to do his job, what medications they will and will not take, and then cop an attitude when the doctor tells them to go somewhere else for their treatment.
My belief is that anyone who reads the AA Big Book and walks away thinking that the people who wrote it were trying to "tell" them to do anything, even so far as to "tell" a person not to drink, has already prejudged AA as a "cult" or a "religious" organization, which it is neither. It blows my mind that people will flock to treatment centers where they're told when to go to bed, when to get up, when to eat, what to read, group meeting schedules, etc., and balk at going to an AA meeting where nobody places any demands on a person at all. Maybe the attitude stems from the idea that if we have to pay for something, that means it's better for us.
I don't pity people who don't choose to believe in a power great than themselves. I also don't sympathize with that same person when they come back complaining about not being able to stop drinking. To the person who won't accept the idea of being powerless over alcohol, who won't accept the idea of there being a God or at the very least, a power greater than themselves I ask, "why are you here?" "Why aren't you out having a beer or two while you figure this thing out?" "After all, being as powerful as you are, not to mention all knowing, and all caring, I would think you'd be able to figure this thing out on your own." These same people would be the ones who would go to the doctor, so sick they couldn't walk and start to tell the doctor how to do his job, what medications they will and will not take, and then cop an attitude when the doctor tells them to go somewhere else for their treatment.
My belief is that anyone who reads the AA Big Book and walks away thinking that the people who wrote it were trying to "tell" them to do anything, even so far as to "tell" a person not to drink, has already prejudged AA as a "cult" or a "religious" organization, which it is neither. It blows my mind that people will flock to treatment centers where they're told when to go to bed, when to get up, when to eat, what to read, group meeting schedules, etc., and balk at going to an AA meeting where nobody places any demands on a person at all. Maybe the attitude stems from the idea that if we have to pay for something, that means it's better for us.
I am glad that you who are your own higher power are sober today. I find that the debate is simply the work of an ego wanting to be feed, and not something i admire in anyone, i realize this is a selfish program but come on , do you really believe the beauty of everything around you just happenned to be? I personally do not. I choose to believe in a higher power of my choice. Its not a debate about what i believe in because it is my choice and it works for me, if i see something admirable in someones suggestion about what they believe, I will let them know, not question it. As best said!! Take what you want and leave the rest
If you do not believe in a higher power than what steps did you use to get sober?
Last edited by larrynboys; 01-25-2005 at 08:07 PM.
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
If you do not believe in a higher power than what steps did you use to get sober?
AA is the only program that uses a higher power specifically. Check out the other recovery programs if you want to know more about what steps others use to get sober. They don't necessarily call them steps.
To simplify, the different groups use ideas such as practicing realistic thinking, dealing with stress factors, disputing irrational beliefs which underlie behavior, arguing with one's 'addictive voice', active group support from peers, strong positive affirmations, guidance from counselors or other professionals, working for lifestyle balance, and so on.
...come on , do you really believe the beauty of everything around you just happenned to be?
Seems to me we had a long thread about that a year ago, but it got lost in the great crash of '04.....
AA is the only program that uses a higher power specifically. Check out the other recovery programs if you want to know more about what steps others use to get sober. They don't necessarily call them steps.
To simplify, the different groups use ideas such as practicing realistic thinking, dealing with stress factors, disputing irrational beliefs which underlie behavior, arguing with one's 'addictive voice', active group support from peers, strong positive affirmations, guidance from counselors or other professionals, working for lifestyle balance, and so on.
...come on , do you really believe the beauty of everything around you just happenned to be?
Seems to me we had a long thread about that a year ago, but it got lost in the great crash of '04.....
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
Andy,
kind of funny how The Daily Reflection's readings for the 25th of Jan. coincided with this thread.
AA shouldn't be force feeding religion down any one's throat. This is could be the need to have this site on the forum so, anyone that didn't want God spoon fed to them wouldn't have to read the threads.
I've tried to back off on the others sites on here as far as selling my beliefs. Is this why the AA program leaves you wanting. Steps 3, 11 and 12 pretty much throw it out there to accept or not to. GOD= group of drunks, good orderly direction, gift of divinity.
For what ever reason, AA led me back to sanity.
kind of funny how The Daily Reflection's readings for the 25th of Jan. coincided with this thread.
AA shouldn't be force feeding religion down any one's throat. This is could be the need to have this site on the forum so, anyone that didn't want God spoon fed to them wouldn't have to read the threads.
I've tried to back off on the others sites on here as far as selling my beliefs. Is this why the AA program leaves you wanting. Steps 3, 11 and 12 pretty much throw it out there to accept or not to. GOD= group of drunks, good orderly direction, gift of divinity.
For what ever reason, AA led me back to sanity.
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Beaver, WA
Posts: 1,346
Originally Posted by Peter
One thing is for certain is that any discussion relating to religion/spirituality is bound to get a lot of attention.
So far Wildone seems to be taking the whole thing in stride.
So far Wildone seems to be taking the whole thing in stride.
Good point Peter. Now that the "argueholism" thread seems to have returned & taken the masses elsewhere, I was wonder how Wild1Forever is doing.
How are you doing Wild1forever????? Keep us updated here if you could, I really enjoyed reading your postings. I'm heading out to my old home group at the Prison tonight but will check back in when I arrive home. Wishing you many blessings as I keep you in thought and prayer.
((((((((Wild1Forever))))))))))
3 Legacy
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Join Date: Mar 2003
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Originally Posted by Music
Hey Captain,
Enjoyed your last post. I asked those same questions when I was in high school and didn't get the answers I wanted so ended up appointing my own higher power.....me.....which ended me up sitting in an AA meeting one night blubbering like a damned idiot. I couldn't figure out where I went wrong....duh!! So, today I consider all those questions you asked, put them where they belong(wherever the hell that is)and choose to believe in whatever I want to believe in, as long as it ain't me.
Enjoyed your last post. I asked those same questions when I was in high school and didn't get the answers I wanted so ended up appointing my own higher power.....me.....which ended me up sitting in an AA meeting one night blubbering like a damned idiot. I couldn't figure out where I went wrong....duh!! So, today I consider all those questions you asked, put them where they belong(wherever the hell that is)and choose to believe in whatever I want to believe in, as long as it ain't me.
Anyone not like this post? They can start a new thread, maybe "Music's intellligence (wisdom) needs a fine tuning. duh!!"...
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Originally Posted by Don S
Is there an answer that can be given that can put an end to all other questions?
If the question is 'Mr. President, shall I launch the missiles?', the answer 'Yes' would put an end to all the other questions.
I'll get back to you about your other rhetorical questions....
Don
If the question is 'Mr. President, shall I launch the missiles?', the answer 'Yes' would put an end to all the other questions.
I'll get back to you about your other rhetorical questions....
Don
Thanks for the conclusion....
Duh!! Was the suspense killing you? I didn't think so....
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Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Hi Mike.
Is there an answer that can be given that can put an end to all other questions?
Speaking only for me, as per usual (!), if there is such an answer, I'm not sure I'd want to know it. What would I have left to do for the rest of my life, however long that may be, if there was nothing left to wonder about?
Is there an answer that can be given that can put an end to all other questions?
Speaking only for me, as per usual (!), if there is such an answer, I'm not sure I'd want to know it. What would I have left to do for the rest of my life, however long that may be, if there was nothing left to wonder about?
And Dan, as your question is the most legitimate and the most humble in "my eyes", which doesn't lead to any conclusion, what have you done to earn it? What makes you think you have the right to wonder?
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Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Sentience.
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I was just responding to your question about what gave me the right to wonder Mike.
As for an absolute truth, that's a concept so alien to me that I'm not really sure I know what you mean.
But your question, How do I justify myself?
Now there's something interesting. Let's go rhetorical again...
By wondering about my place in the universe, am I not justifying myself?
As for an absolute truth, that's a concept so alien to me that I'm not really sure I know what you mean.
But your question, How do I justify myself?
Now there's something interesting. Let's go rhetorical again...
By wondering about my place in the universe, am I not justifying myself?
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