progress

Great, great advice, Best. Thank you so much. My best buddy on the planet said basically the same thing to me yesterday (to not reject the message because of the messenger), and it has greatly lessened my frustration in trying to learn more of God's word. To quote her, she "doesn't want my head to explode" in the search for peace and serenity. Geez, neither do I...

Like I posted earlier, I'm feeling frustrated, but I haven't given up. Maybe today's meeting isn't the one for me...who knows, maybe the crack-of-dawn meetings (6 AM and 7 AM) are the ones I need! But I am very grateful to be searching, and I am extremely grateful to continue getting the encouragement I need, both here and from others.

(((HUGS)))

best

and that is how we all do it...one day at a time. some days there may be frustration other days there may not be any. Still though you have the key... You haven't given up.
Great way to stay sober.
I have heard it said a time or two... The meetings that are for you are the ones you need to be at. It is when we don't go when needed, we find that what they talked about was "Just what I needed to hear"
I may eat 3 meals a day and get food from each one but the dinner with meat and potato I enjoy the most it seems. Still I gain and grow from the other 2 meals as well.

Captain Morgan

I have not found a stronger spiritual life to lessen my desire to drink. I have found that a stronger spiritual life has increased my desire to want to lessen my desire to drink alcoholically, and even that at times may be dubious.

What is it that makes you so "glad to be alive?" In my own way I understand what you're saying here, but what is it about these things (enjoying life, enjoing my family, enjoying my work) that your family condemns?

By the time I realized I had a need for a Saviour, I was already (figuratively) dead. I can't imagine wanting to be saved from something I love so much; I wanted to be saved from my miserable life, and it wasn't until then that I began to understand what that means; this is explained in Ecclesiastes. People who love this life aren't typically attracted to what Christianity offers: a solution to what this life offers.

A stronger spiritual life helps me to prioritize my life. A stronger spiritual life gives me the only hope I have. A stronger spiritual life gives me identity. A stronger spiritual life is all I've got, because my life on this earth is but "a vapor:"

James 4
9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or tha
16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Christianity is offered to everyone, but it is not well-received by everyone. For what are we seeking? That which we are seeking, we will find.

Matthew 7
7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.





.

Music

There were a couple things I had to get over when I first came to AA. One was the title, "Alcoholic." The other was the word "religion." What the hell is an alcoholic anyway? If I ask 10 people I'm goint to get 10 discriptions. Where is the "religion" in the AA program. The only religion I know of is the fact that the program is based on religious principles as Bill W. saw it. That was his opinion and interpretation. Well, the people who wrote the book knew I was going to be here one day with my attitude about religion so they changed it just for me. So, now all I have to do is make up my mind whether or not I want to get sober and stay sober. I had to GET OVER IT.

Captain Morgan

Exactly. In that way, the word "alcoholic" is kind of like the word sin, forgiveness, Christian, Satan, etc....

I find it helpful to base the meaning of these on an absolute, unchanging source....

Music

OF MY UNDERSTANDING..... :lumpy

mizeeyore

Can't believe i gotta type this all over again. didn't stick last time. Anyhow, here goes.

There's an AA slogan that applies here. "Take what you need and leave the rest" works for AA meetings as well as bible studies. My best bet, most days, is to make sure that nobody gets between me and my higher power, and that "nobody" includes man-made religions. As for them, I take what I need and leave the rest

In my view, there's no shame involved in coming back. There would only be shame if the effort wasn't made to come back at all. I had four years, blew it for two, and now have three back again. I'm living proof that an alkie just can't ever really drink "normally". Oh, and just because I wasn't face down in the gutter when I came back to the program this time, doesn't mean that I didn't see the "bottom". I did see it coming, and I didn't like the view.

The other slogan that comes to mind here is the one about keeping it simple. The AA program suggests that we come to the realization that there is a higher power. Well, my big "spiritual experience" was when I looked in the mirror and realized that if I'm as good as it gets, we're all in deep yogurt!!! I'm glad there's a higher power!!!

Captain Morgan

Yes sir, Music. Why would I want to base it on someone else's understanding? LOL!

Don S

....of which there are more than 20 English language translations alone, and the key text is interpreted in many languages by over 30,000 denominations. 'Absolute' and 'unchanging' are not words I'd apply to any religious text, and that's presumably what is being used in bible study classes.

So if someone is doing genuine spiritual inquiry, that leaves a lot of room for questions, skepticism, and even confusion. Conditions which wouldn't necessarily lend themselves to sobriety, though studying them could certainly fill many a former drinking hour!

However, wild, I'm still not clear on how the bible study classes link to your AA meetings.

You said, regarding the AA meeting, "I'm trying to find a support system for where I am today, and these people aren't it. Although I greatly appreciated their honesty.)
Good news is that I got a phone number.
Good news is that I haven't given up."
And you mention feeling remorse or guilt about enjoying life. Are you finding the theology at the bible study classes discouraging? Feeling out of place at the AA meetings? Having trouble with specific aspects of the steps or AA philosophy?

These forums are very useful because there are people from every range of belief system and recovery program, and many have dealt with these questions. So this could be a good place to discuss those concerns while you consider the many options available to you in both spiritual studies and recovery programs.

Your choices are pretty simple. You can immerse yourself in the beliefs of your bible study group, and adopt the AA philosophy in its entirety. You can reject both, and go elsewhere. Or you can adapt them to your own beliefs, and use the parts that apply to your life and your situation.

I guess it kind of depends on where you think the impetus and sustenance for change will come from--within your self, or outside your self. People successfully achieve sobriety from either approach. What's difficult is trying to achieve change from within when you don't believe it can be done, or trying to allow a higher power to do it when you don't believe in one.

Don S

Captain Morgan

As always, Don, it was simply my opinion, as are your posts, in my opinion, of course, haha.

Don S

LOL! Yeah, I've thought about changing my signature line to 'of course, that's just my opinion'...but I like the quote from Rabbi Twerski better.
Don

Captain Morgan

I have some questions to put out there, not that I seek the answers, but I ask these questions rhetorically. If different translations of the Bible convey different meanings, how does one go about deciding which translation is correct? Do I use the one my parents' used? If so, why? Were they there when it was written? Do I use the one someone with a PHD uses? If so, why? Were they there when it was written? Can they use their education or impressive intelligence to figure it out?

If I want to know how the world was formed, or when the world was formed, or if the world was formed, who should I look to for the answer? Do I have a contemporary who was there when this all took place? If so, maybe he would tell me, but how would I know he was telling me the truth? Maybe he would have some form of proof, but how would I know it wasn't a hoax?

How do we know that we know the truth? If God exists and he isn't physical, can it be expected that he would be picked up by one of the five physical senses? If so, why?

Is there an answer that can be given that can put an end to all other questions? If that answer exists, should I look to another human being to give me the answer?

Dan

Hi Mike.
Is there an answer that can be given that can put an end to all other questions?

Speaking only for me, as per usual (!), if there is such an answer, I'm not sure I'd want to know it. What would I have left to do for the rest of my life, however long that may be, if there was nothing left to wonder about?

Music

Hey Captain,
Enjoyed your last post. I asked those same questions when I was in high school and didn't get the answers I wanted so ended up appointing my own higher power.....me.....which ended me up sitting in an AA meeting one night blubbering like a damned idiot. I couldn't figure out where I went wrong....duh!! So, today I consider all those questions you asked, put them where they belong(wherever the hell that is)and choose to believe in whatever I want to believe in, as long as it ain't me.

Thanks misse for your post. I have to remember one thing when taking what I need and leaving the rest or, keeping it simple. I have to remember that other folks have the privilege of doing the same thing, and what they choose to take or leave, or how they choose to simplify things don't have to be the same way I do things. I'm just glad you're back and I believe your bottom was your God given insight as to what your bottom was going to be. You obviously didn't want to go there.

progress

I think that "taking what I need and leaving the rest" is greatly reducing my confusion...or, more accurately, my anxiety over my confusion. Does that make sense?

This has been a very good morning. Somehow I woke up feeling "healed", as though at that very moment, someone was thinking about or praying for me. I am thankful to be here today and to be sober!

BubbaBob

...to be ashamed of.

I am ashamed of and embarassed by the things I did as an active alcoholic, but I'll just be damned if I will be ashamed of being sick and trying to get better.

This thing is a chronic, progressive, fatal disease that we can arrest but not cure. OK...your remission took a short break...get over that and get on with taking the medicine for your disease...using the tools that gave you those years of sobriety.

I got up at 7:30 EST...anyone up before me has more sobriety than I do.

BubbaBob

Don S

Is there an answer that can be given that can put an end to all other questions?
If the question is 'Mr. President, shall I launch the missiles?', the answer 'Yes' would put an end to all the other questions.
I'll get back to you about your other rhetorical questions....
Don

NoMoBeer

...the other night at a meeting while reading "We Agnostics" in the Big Book.

Someone said:

Religion is learned....Spirituality is felt.

Made me think of this thread and I just wanted to share. BTW, "We Agnostics" is a great chapter -- great piece of spiritual (not religious) literatue, might be worth a read.

Ken

Don S

Here's an interesting take on agnosticism and AA, from a group called Agnostic AA:
http://www.agnosticaanyc.org/

Frequently Asked Questions
Q. What's an agnostic?
A. "Agnostism" literally means "not knowing" as regards the existence or nature of God. It's a convenient word to encompass the variety of beliefs and non-beliefs held by our individual members. Recovering alcoholics who attend the agnostic A.A. groups come together knowing that sobriety can be attained by anyone with the help of A.A. fellowship and principles, without necessarily relying on a Higher Power.
*
Q. Are these legitimate A.A. groups?
A. Of course. As the Third Tradition says, "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking." We are listed in the Meeting Book published by New York Inter-Group, and we are listed on their web site. Our groups are listed with the General Service Office (GSO) and most have a General Service Representative (GSR).
*
Q. What are your meetings like?
A. They're quite similar to other A.A. meetings around New York City. Most meetings feature a speaker sharing his or her "experience, strength, and hope" followed by sharing by other members of the group. Other meetings feature readings from A.A. and non-A.A. literature and topic discussions.
*
Q. Do you conclude your meeting with a prayer?
A. No. At the end of the meeting, the chairperson usually reads the declaration made at the 30th anniversary international convention of Alcoholics Anonymous: “Whenever anyone, anywhere reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there. And for that I am responsible.” Then, the members hold hands in a circle and repeat the slogan:
*
Live and Let Live!

*
Q. Do you folks work the steps?
A. Some do, some don't. Some rely solely on the Fellowship for their recovery and they find it works well for them. Others who do make use of the steps often use the Agnostic 12 Steps for this purpose. Others substitute the phrase "group of drunks" or "good orderly direction" for the word "God" in the steps.
*
Q. How do these groups make use of the Big Book?
A. Frankly, we don't use it very often. Most of our members find Chapter 4 ("We Agnostics") to be particularly condescending and not helpful to their sobriety. The A.A. publication we like the most is Living Sober, a work written from a more-secular point of view and offering much practical advice.
*
Q. Am I welcome to one of your meetings if I'm religious, or if I think of God as my higher power?
A. Certainly. The agnostic A.A. meetings provide a home for recovering alcoholics of various beliefs. Our members simply appreciate an atmosphere where belief is not made a prerequisite for sobriety.
*
------------------
They've revised the 12 Steps to suit their beliefs as follows:

Agnostic Twelve Steps
For agnostics who would like to work the steps, this version of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous provides slightly different wording of the six steps that make reference to God or a Higher Power. This version of the Twelve Steps seems to have originated in agnostic A.A. groups in California.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.
[Original: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.]

3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
[Original: Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.]

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
[Original: Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.]

6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
[Original: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.]

7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
[Original: Humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.]

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.
[Original: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.]

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

B.F. Skinner's 12 Steps are another alternative. So are Charles's 5 Steps. [links provided]

Prior to the evening in the fall of 1938 when Bill Wilson composed the Twelve Steps, early A.A. groups had used a programdescribed by the Original 6 Steps.

Bill Wilson's first draft of the Twelve Steps did not include the phrases "Power greater than ourselves" or "as we understood Him." These phrases were added later in an attempt to make the Steps more inclusive. Although the first draft of the Twelve Steps has been lost, here's one historian's recreation of the Original 12 Steps [link provided].

Don S

progress

Hi all--

I am working through (or perhaps "slogging through", lol) stuff. It's so nice to be reminded of the nice things you all have said to me.

I have backed off on my Bible study for the time being. I did go to church yesterday, which was great. I am a Catholic; our pastor is just a great man who I have learned a lot from. I always feel a sense of relief when I walk in there. For the longest time, Father Matt was also the only person whom I confided in about my drinking problems. So anyway, that was a positive experience.

It was the Bible study that was putting me over the edge. I probably will return, but not this week (classes are Tuesday morning). Please keep reminding me to take care of myself.

(((HUGS TO EVERYONE)))