nutz

oki doki ,

Don't beat up on yourself,
The disease feeds on it.

Jump on your bed like a kid.
Have a pillow fight with your hubbie
swing on the swings with your kids or have snow ball fights.
Make snow angles
Roll in the leafs
Hug a tree
Read jokes or make up jokes. laugh tell it hurts.
Play a prank on your family.lol
Drive to the store in your pajamas.
look in the mirror and piont the finger at yourself then luagh and smile.

Would I or could I allow myself to be happy ?

If I should die . If there is a heaven.
And if there is a god and he/it should ask me what did I do with my life.
My answer would be...
I hug a tree dude !!!!
that's sumthing you hear all the time do ya?
I laughed a lot too.

GG733

A kind soul told me at my first meeting: "Religion is for people that don't want to go to Hell, spirituality is for people who've already been there". AA is a spiritual program and you get to roll your own God. Fire the one you've got if he ain't workin'. One small suggestion...money and your sexual organs generally speaking, don't make good higher powers .

GG733

nutz, you rock dude!!!!!!!!!!!!

jlo34

Wow,
Thank God I didn't buy the easy way out and decide to go with the "agnostic" version of AA - talk about re-writing the Big Book and the Twelve Steps to "suit yourself". I am grateful that I have found a Power Greater than myself. I don't know what I'd do without using the Big Book; it's a wonderful tool in sobriety, I have found myself in there over and over again. I pity the person (people) who are so stubborn that they aren't open-minded and willing enough to get outside of their own ego to see that there is a better way of life...

Wild it sounds like you have a Higher Power, you mentioned that you woke up feeling good - like someone had been thinking or praying for you - would that have been your Higher Power letting you know that He/She/It loves you?!?!?! I love that feeling...

GG733

When I first got sober I had "the Hellfire and brimstone monster" from my childhood...I had to fire him. I then chose "the laid back hippie higher power" who let me sit on my butt and do nothing...he had to go too. I then chose "the eastern mystic higher power"...he had to go too 'cause bending my fat body into the lotus position wasn't gonna happen. At ten years I now have "the I don't know what it is, but it works...and thats okay higher power"...it works for me.

Dan

"the I don't know what it is, but it works...and thats okay higher power"...it works for me.
I like that a lot.
Thanks Golden.

Dan

Jlo, nothing softer, as I see it, in the agnostic steps, from what I've read about it.
Simply something that works for those it works for.
You write...
I pity the person (people) who are so stubborn that they aren't open-minded and willing enough to get outside of their own ego to see that there is a better way of life...
That's perplexing, considering what you're saying about the agnostic program.

Don S

Oh, my.

Why is it 'the easy way out' to make use of a program within your existing spiritual beliefs? Is this approach to sobriety somehow less 'real' than yours? Why is it stubborn, and not open-minded, and deserving of your pity? Why do you assume they haven't found a better way of life by using the 12 steps in a manner that works for them?

Please--don't be so quick to dismiss people who are working on their sobriety, using tools very similar to what you are using, and overcoming a philosophical problem that many, many people have with AA.

I have no idea how accepted this approach is within AA. But my observation of those who come to other programs is that the three big hurdles to AA that most have are the concept of powerlessness, the religion/spirituality issue, and the higher power concept.

These are people who have acknowledged their powerlessness, sought support from a group of their peers, and found a way to overcome the religion/spirituality problem. That should be worthy of praise, not condescension.

Sorry to sound irritated, jlo! Perhaps I just misread your meaning. Maybe 'easy way out' is AA jargon that I don't understand, in which case I hope we can talk about it.

Don S

larrynboys

Well said and right to the point!
I personally believe prayer is a better tool than pitty myself.

Gooch

wow Golden .. I can relate to that search... I couldn't even begin to talk to the version of God that my Sunday school teacher told me was angry with me for going fishing with my Dad on Sunday morning before church. When I got clean I started out with a God that was pretty far removed and only left me a few clues like atomic theory and the periodic table of the elements to show me there was some structure and relativity amidst the chaotic incongruity. Then the laid back forgiving friendly God showed up and let me learn how to accept myself as I was. The God of my curent understanding is a MacGyver biker that can look at me and see everything about me past present and future, smile at me and let me know that I'm on the right track and can count on him for a hand or a hug. In fact I get the "what took you so long" look and a grin most days about 20 minutes after I get out of bed. lol

Phinneas

Amen. Been there, didn't like it, not eager for a return trip. That's why I work my program of recovery as if my life depends on it... because it does.

jojo

jlo34

I knew what I wrote would get some attention. Maybe I am closed-minded to "other recovery options". I just don't understand I suppose why so many people on this site have such a hard time with the "God-thing". The community where I live there doesn't seem to be near the amount of turmoil and lack of faith in a Higher Power as I read on these boards. I guess I just plain don't understand how you can NOT see the beauty and acknowledge the miracles that happen everyday...most particularly, the unexpected miracles and the feeling of being loved and not knowing why all of a sudden you're feeling that love, but you know it's from Someone or from Somewhere...

Albeit, I didn't grow up with a religious background, I don't attend church, I couldn't tell you what any of the religious positions are or who the people in the Bible are...I'm very ignorant and choose to remain that way. As was mentioned earlier, I believe that religion is for those who don't want to go to hell and spirituality is for those who've been to hell. Now, mind you, I'm not saying that church isn't good - I don't know. I have a real problem with the word "sin" and "sinner". Other than that, I have no opinion, other than I don't feel I need to be in a special building to pray; I don't need anyone to tell me who or what my Higher Power is.

When I got to AA and got serious about sobriety, I asked people how to pray, because I didn't know how to. I asked people about this whole "God-thing", because I didn't have a clue. I developed my own idea of a Higher Power based on prayer and spiritual experiences that have (and continue) to occur in my life. I can't dismiss the miracles that happen as coincidence - I know that the miracles I notice in life are from a Higher Power. I don't believe that God will give me ANYTHING to deal with; I believe God will be with me when I need to deal with things (like the Footprints poem) and help me get through it.

When a child is conceived and born; how can you dismiss that as coincidence. That overwhelming feeling of love you have for that child; is not that very love a God-given feeling? How about the newcomer you watch struggling and then after a few months you see that they are now doing service work, have a sponsor, working the steps, and that their lives are improving. You watch them continue to go to meetings and then one day at a meeting say "I woke up this morning, no one was there, but I had this overwhelming feeling that I was loved", how can that be dismissed? When you're running low on money and don't know how you're going to pay your bills and an unexpected check comes...how do you dismiss that? When you're driving down the road and a voice tells you to slow down, you listen, you slow down, and all of a sudden a car comes shooting out of a driveway right in front of you (had I not listened I would have been dead); how can I dismiss that?

When I decided to get serious about sobriety; when I finally realized it was life or death; when I accepted in my heart and mind that I was a REAL alcoholic I became willing to do whatever it would take for me to stay sober. I would have (and still would) do anything to guarantee my sobriety for today.

So, I will admit to being naive about those other programs, I admit to being naive about church, and I admit to be naive about not being able to find a kind and loving God, Who guides me through my life and envelops me into His loving arms.

When I get that voice that tells me to do something, I don't question, I do it and find out why usually fairly immediately. The latest most beautiful spiritual experience I had was a bit over a month ago when I was struggling with the concept of forgiveness of self. I did a 4/5th step, the most honest and thorough I have ever done, I ended up doing 2 fifth steps and afterwards I got down on my knees and prayed with my heart for God to help relieve the bondage of self, to relieve the resentment of self, and to forgive myself - it was such a beautiful experience which has left me feeling serene, peaceful, and content. Maybe I'm just a lucky person to be able to so easily find this Higher Power, maybe it's from the lack of religious upbringing. I don't know. I am so grateful though for the Higher Power in my life and I thank Him everyday for another opportunity to be a better person.

Sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intention; just my opinion (and a few character defects!!!!LOL).

CAPTAINZING2000

Nice Post J Lo

I Don't Get Bothered By The Unbelievers. Lol I Do Try To Scare The Hell Out Of Them Though I've Been Around A Few Years. From What I've Seen Over The Course Of My Life Time Faith Gets You Thru The Hard Times We Are All From God. We Have Free Will. We Can Choose To Accept And Believe Or Not To Believe. I've Made A Decisin To Turn My Life Ove To The Care Of The Gods Of My Understanding
I Will Not And I Repeat Will Not Slam Someone For The Church Or Place Of Worship. This Is My Belief Aa Is A God Given Program. God Is Mentioned Several Time In Our Readings Etc.

I Fought Like Hell To Keep My Will. Somehow, When I Surrendered To God And Said Do With Me What You Will God My Life Is So Good I Don't Feel I Deserve It For The Ones That Don't Have God In Their Life, I Pray Some Day You May. God Is There For You All You Have To Do Is Open Your Heart And Tell Him You Love Him Unconditional Love


Amazing Grace

Don S

Hi, jlo,

That's a great description of how you have accepted your own higher power and the joy that it brings you. You describe how you see that higher power in what you perceive as miracles, conception and birth and parental love. People who don't believe in any kind of god find wonder and joy in such things, too, and share your sense of awe. They just don't explain the origin of those things the way you do.

Many people don't believe in an all-knowing god intervening in human events. Some call themselves agnostics or atheists; others are simply 'nothing'. So when they approach sobriety and are told that they must accept such a power, it can be a big obstacle. I'm not saying all AA people tell them they must, or that all meetings involve that. It is just a common comment from people who leave AA or choose to look elsewhere, and a source of distress for many who otherwise find AA useful.

My own belief (not being in AA) is that they would do well to look into some of the recovery options that work without a higher power: SMART Recovery, SOS, LifeRing, Women for Sobriety--all of which consider one's spiritual life to be a personal choice in recovery. They are essentially neutral on the idea of appealing to a source outside of your self to achieve recovery, and each provides other tools for sobriety. Those tools include strong affirmation of your own capacity for change, use of reason to dispute urges, actively changing beliefs about alcohol and drugs, group support, and more.

But since AA is the best known option (though not necessarily the most effective or best for everyone), it isn't surprising that some folks would work to adapt the principles to their own beliefs. It appears that this violates some orthodoxy you (and larrynboys, I guess) hold.

I've read through We Agnostics a few times, and I agree with the AgnosticAAnyc group that it is 'particularly condescending'. It's more like 'We Former Agnostics--telling you why you shouldn't be, either'. It even begins 'something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics'--the use of past tense pretty much sets the tone for the rest of the chapter. It attempts to put forth rationalizations for a god -- in effect, telling agnostics why they shouldn't be agnostics. It goes through circuitous and tortured logic on behalf of faith over reason. And it ends with a florid description of sudden revelation, conversion, and healing, all in prose that is about as religious as it gets. Frankly, the reason many people think AA is a religious group is because of the very religious prose in the Big Book.

So let's assume someone gets through all that and still hasn't been swayed away from the agnosticism that is so thoroughly derided in that chapter. How would you, and larrynboys, suggest that person approach sobriety through AA? Or would you say that AA is just not for those of no faith?

Don S

best

Take what you want and leave the rest

Andy F

Hi all

I am an agnostic and need no pity. It's a choice that I made. Personally, I think it's a more developed, advanced and honest choice than when I lived according to AAs 12 steps. I have no need to pretend, kid myself, or wrap myself in a cocoon of deceiptful emotionalism. I learnt this the hard way after many years chasing my tail in AA.

Of course, when I practiced the steps, prayed with my wife etc. I too would have pitied or ridiculed the non-believer. I also knew that having found God, I would never be alone again.

You newcomers are doing the right thing. Your being advised to believe in God and your going with it. It's your choice.

A year or so ago I argued with someone who insisted, amongst other beliefs, that AA was a religion. How my mind changes when it is open and enquiring.

I have had to extract myself from the morass of shame and misguided direction, the evangelical and Christian rebirth program called the 12 steps and hurry myself to a therapist to get some sense. After many sober years, I had walked a long way into the woods and had a long way to walk back out. I try not to be resentful at the wasted years.

People get sober 'despite' the 12 steps, not because of them. And more die than get sober because the 12 steps are unhelpful and a hinderence.

I like my friends in AA. AA would be fantastic if we discussed a non-supernatural way to get sober. The rooms of AA would be bursting at the seams if we had a big book that was about the way our brains work, cognitively. If after you got sober, and not in desperation, you decided that you wanted to believe in God, then that would be a life choice, a benefit of having got sober...as opposed to it being a gun against your head.

regards

Andy F

CAPTAINZING2000

I'm Lucky In The Fact That, No One In My Area Meetings Shoves God Down Someone's Throat The Primary Purpose Is To Get Someone Sober. 12 Steps Are Suggested As A Way Of Recovery. Aa As Such Might Not Be For Everyone. A Loving God Might Not Be For Everyone. I'd Rather Believe And Be Right And Not Believe And Die And Think Crap Wished I Would Have Believed.
I Don't Like To Be Around The Bible Thumpers Either. They Scare More People Away Then They Help. Alas, A Drunk Comes Into Aa He Blames God And Everyone But His Wretched Self For The Way He Is. Clean Up The Body And The Mind Will Follow.

jlo34

Ok,
I have never encountered anything about religion in the Big Book 3rd or 4th editions (where does it talk about religion or speak in religious jargon?). I'll be happy to relook at it if you can tell me where it is. As far as chapter 4 goes: many people find acceptance with a different name for their Higher Power: many in our community like The Truth as I know Him. Chapter 4 isn't trying to brainwash you; isn't trying to MAKE you believe in something you don't; it uses so many different terms because the authors of the book must have felt that there would be those who aren't comfortable with the term God/Higher Power and thought that perhaps one of the dozens of different references might be helpful.

As far as the 12 steps go, Andy. I've been sober for several years; I have seen a lot of people who choose NOT to work the steps and get drunk. I have yet to see ANYONE relapse who has diligently worked the steps, got a sponsor, and go to meetings on a consistent basis, relapse.

The rooms of AA would be bursting at the seams - if it were filled with people who needed it. The rooms are bursting with people who WANT sobriety or are court ordered (or at least they are in my area).

I have never felt like I had a gun against my head in regards to my Higher Power (and seeking one). When I decided to get serious about sobriety, I asked about prayer and I asked about steps 2 and 3. It was a decision on my part. What the Big Book talks about as well as the 12 steps and 12 traditions is that "what we were lacking was spirituality". We became mentally, physically and spiritually bankrupt when we were drinking. I went to AA, stayed sober and my mind has (mostly) returned, my physical well-being was (mostly) improved, and my spiritual well-being is better than it ever was - since I never had anything before.

When I was in treatment; my counselor told me to look for the winners when I got out. I asked her how I'd know them. She said you'll know by their eyes. She was right. When I got out of treatment, I went to meetings and I looked into everyones eyes. Didn't have to look too hard to find the big winners (oldtimers - who still did a lot of stepwork, prayer, service work, and meetings - they have all since passed on), There have been a lot of people over the years that have had "the look". I'm told, I too have "the look". I know I attend a lot of meetings, pray, go to 12&12 tables, go to Big Book studies, keep in contact with my sponsors, keep in contact with my sponsee, help with whatever I can (physically disabled due to work injury). I just can't imagine my life without AA. I know my family wouldn't want to! AA provides me with sanity when I'm feeling insane. I always walk out of a meeting feeling better than I did when I walked in (for me, that's the Power of God and the Love of God) showering us in His love. My opinion, my belief. I can't convince either of you (Don and Andy) how wonderful and freeing it is with spirituality. How things make sense and how things are good and how things are ok and feeling the serenity and peace. I can only give you my opinion and experience, strength and hope.

When I had said pity in the prior post, maybe that was the wrong word. I feel badly that there are people who are unable to see the wonderful, beauty that I see and recognize and appreciate the source of where It comes from. Better?

Music

I've run into people at meetings who refuse to accept the concept of a higher power let alone the idea of there being a God. To these people I ask, "why are you here?" One would assume that when a person comes to AA where the majority of people in attendance believe in a higher power, that the person is at least willing to accept the idea of a power greater than themselves. IMO when a person(like myself)comes to AA, they have a problem which to them has no solution at least thus far. I asked, "how do I stay sober?" My sponsor said I should work at developing a relationship with a power greater than myself of my choosing. When I argued with my sponsor, he just very quietly asked me why I was sitting in an AA meeting if I already had all the answers. He said, "apparently we just don't realize who you think you are."

I don't pity people who don't choose to believe in a power great than themselves. I also don't sympathize with that same person when they come back complaining about not being able to stop drinking. To the person who won't accept the idea of being powerless over alcohol, who won't accept the idea of there being a God or at the very least, a power greater than themselves I ask, "why are you here?" "Why aren't you out having a beer or two while you figure this thing out?" "After all, being as powerful as you are, not to mention all knowing, and all caring, I would think you'd be able to figure this thing out on your own." These same people would be the ones who would go to the doctor, so sick they couldn't walk and start to tell the doctor how to do his job, what medications they will and will not take, and then cop an attitude when the doctor tells them to go somewhere else for their treatment.

My belief is that anyone who reads the AA Big Book and walks away thinking that the people who wrote it were trying to "tell" them to do anything, even so far as to "tell" a person not to drink, has already prejudged AA as a "cult" or a "religious" organization, which it is neither. It blows my mind that people will flock to treatment centers where they're told when to go to bed, when to get up, when to eat, what to read, group meeting schedules, etc., and balk at going to an AA meeting where nobody places any demands on a person at all. Maybe the attitude stems from the idea that if we have to pay for something, that means it's better for us.

SusanD

It is freezing here in New York, but this thread is quite toasty.

Andy F--I relate to your experiences and feel inspired by your insightfulness.
Don S--You are a breath of fresh air. As much of modern America currently obsesses about the perceived righteousness of dogmatic absolutes-- rational, open minded thinkers (like you) shine a light through the dark tunnel.