Obladi

As in...
This is our routine?
Our norm?
It's ok?

More words please.
What is the judgement or conclusion or trajectory you are drawing here?

Sorry I'm not understanding you.

fini

want to talk about this some more?

fini

yes, sure. problem is, we often don’t/can’t know what will work for us until it doesn’t.
i had lots of tries where i was convinced i was doing what worked...and it didn’t. i didn’t. so....there is lots of value in paying attention to what those with long-term sobriety have done and are doing/not doing.

and here on SR, as in “real life”, i have seen people crash no matter what they do, and no matter how they might have been convinced that what they were doing was working for them.

sigh.

Stayingsassy

There is no real prescription for it, and there is no guarantee, at all.

That’s the unfortunate truth of it, that the determination to quit and stay quit is important, and AA or AVRT or therapy or meds or other programs, help support that desire to quit, and to continue to live a sober life.

With no desire to quit, no support in the world will keep this going. I find this whole life journey quite difficult, to be honest. I’m always going to be drawn to escape, and this life path doesn’t afford me the kind of complete escape I want. I live with that because the alternative is a no-go. If I didn’t truly want and need sobriety, I’d be drinking: in blissful oblivion/complete hell, depending on the point in time where I’m getting drunk or sobering up, an endless cycle of getting drunk and getting sober....the life path where it all evens out takes some getting used to indeed and it takes longer than 2 years, for some of us.

dwtbd

Not consuming alcohol is a very discrete and highly manageable action(inaction).

Dealing with the loss of blissful oblivion is a separate paradigm.

Quitting is one thing, being happy about it another. The latter usually follows in proportion to the determination of the former.

Obladi

Makes sense to me.
I also think I have much better insight today why knowing and understanding that has been of limited use. (Which - of course - doesn't make it any less true.)

Well, of course it's discrete and theoretically manageable, my dear. To trivialize the thing to an extreme, so is not biting my nails. But I go through periodic spates when I do that. And then I continue on to pick into the surrounding skin.

I think I may beg to differ on the blissful oblivion contention, but have to search my soul on that one. I'm not sure whether that lasted into these last dark days. The blissful part, I mean.

I can't quite piece together what you mean by the latter following in proportion to the determination of the former. Do you mean the size of the happiness is related to the size of the will to quit? That doesn't sound AVRT-ish to me at all, so I must be misinterpreting.

These are not complete thoughts, but things I want to ruminate on and come back to.

Dropsie

My happiness or lack thereof ebbs and flows with how my life is going, like everyone's does.

HOWEVER, I notice a marked increase in my happiness quotient in the last six months, which I think is related to my chemicals fixing themselves after years of not drinking. My sadness is higher too.

For example, I can sing in the car and be happy in a way that I was when I was a kid, truly.

And I have cried lots of tears over the kids who are suicidal in the Greek camps and Sassy's borther in law.

I think this is a gift that sobriety brings to the brain.

But in my case, it took a lot of time and seems unrelated, but I beleive its my brain healing.

But I did nothing to encourage it nor do I think effort had anything to do with it, except the effort of not drinking. Its something that happens physically if we give it time.

XX

dwtbd

Quitting ( or in my hubris 'becoming quat') is only theoretic in AV parlance.

Self- honestly (now I'm making up adverbs, the purist mindset ) deciding to never put booze in your mouth again , in AVRT making a Big Plan usually comes with the reported ACE the abstinence commitment effect.

The larger or higher degree of determination which one assigns to the self pledge brings a concomitant degree of self satisfaction in knowing the addiction has been arrested and has zero chance of being resurrected.

Quitting booze is a binary choice, more booze or no more booze , ever.

Residual desire and how to deal with it is not binary, not really even a choice, the Beast only dies when 'we' do.

Viewed through that lens , quitting is trivial and wholly managable, everyone is free to pick their own lens.

Obladi

I just realized my reply to your previous reply was actually butting in to your response to Sassy's reply, so forget that. Erase. Delete. Start over.

Obladi

Oh, right, gotcha. Jack says, "Happy to show you how to never use again but you're own you're own as far as all the rest of whatever ails ya." Yah. He says that.

I was going to explain what I was confused about what you were saying but that would be silly since it was my own confusion and would serve no purpose here.

Obladi

My neurons are clearly running in overdrive.

So very many events and thoughts and revelations in the last 72 hours that I almost can't keep up with it and I don't want to forget any of it and I don't want to forget to respond to the thought-provoking things you guys are saying. It's like a new crack has opened in my brain (ha!) and I'm so enchanted by what's going in and out that I want to get it all down.

No cause for concern at what appears to be a bit of mania (I don't think?), but perhaps cause for celebration. I mean, I feel pretty excited about what's happening over here in O Land.

So.
Deep breath.
There will be no cliff notes, so prepare for an Opus
(get it? I'm so clever. Next thread title is now in the works. )

p.s. I will make every effort to not repeat stories I already told, but make no promises.

dwtbd

".. all the rest of whatever ails ya"

Yeah that's the stuff I usually use my 'disclaimer' for.

Personally I don't think we are wired to sort it all out without some help, support , advise ect from others, or at the very least I wouldn't say others can't be a net benefit seeking their help and all, yeah ?

But guarding my philtrum is on me , yeah ?

Obladi

The "it" in this case being, I presume, all the rest of what ails us. Is that what you mean? Or are you publicly disclosing the chinck in your AVRTism I've always perceived and adored?

edit: had to deliberately misspell "chinck" otherwise it turns into *****s. That completely bemused me for a moment.

Obladi

Quick foreshadowing: Just got a call from occupational health indicating that I may be able to return to work as soon as Monday. Hooray! And also, whoa. ok. Laundry. Shower. Suit Up.

dwtbd

I O so love being adored, but as far as booze consumption goes I'm the purist of the pure

All the rest is life, even the 'struggles' of maintaining abstinence gets put into that box .

Kind of what Sassy was speaking to , the idea of escapism being part of the human condition. I've taken a more J. Petersonian stance in my older years . Escapism presupposes a realm without pain and struggle, perhaps that is a nonexistent realm.

Stayingsassy

Hi everyone,
Obladi I have to give you some kudos for always acknowledging everyone’s presence in here. I struggle with that when I start a post. I don’t give it enough weight, the acknowledgment of others responses to my posts. I admire that you do. I don’t feel like I have the time or emotional energy all the time to do that. That is likely an excuse for laziness.

The blissful part of the oblivion is the release from pain and grief. Not the getting high (which doesn’t always happen when you’re an alcoholic) it’s the leaving consciousness. It’s why I crave sleep.

It’s simplistic to say that if I haven’t made the firm commitment, I will be unhappy about the big plan. Sometimes I’m unhappy that I made a big plan, because I no longer have a way to escape my consciousness, and I want to still do that. There are other, more demonic and frightening ways to do that, not really seeing those as a choice, either.

Point being, my firm choice to never drink again must sometimes still be dealt with.

Could AVRTers sometimes feel as though they are not meeting a “should,” and go back out because of that? I “should” be happy about the big plan and I’m not so I am “unique,” my quit is “wrong.” It’s that same feeling I get about AA people saying they are “cured of the obsession.” What if you’re not, in either program, but you learn to live alongside it, you learn live with it? Via acknowledgment of the voice as other, or via continued meetings and sponsorship? Or for me....feeling like I don’t need sober recovery....and then realizing I do?

What if honesty about it being hard actually normalizes, and validates it for us? Validates not returning to drinking, as that is not a choice: but the struggle, or if not a struggle, the life’s work of sobriety?

I believe in the big plan, and I also believe in the disease model. I manage my disease with a big plan, there’s no other way to achieve continued sobriety other than to quit without reservation. But my disease is chronic; it can’t be healed, and managed daily. Any thought that I don’t need to manage it because I’m fixed is a dangerous thought for me.

Obladi

There it is.
Narrow aperture exposed and adored.

Obladi

Sassy, right now, I have the time. . Also, though, you guys all say such great stuff and I really value the discussion of our little village. It's so worth it to me. When I say I appreciate the hard stuff, I'm not just blowing smoke, I mean it. Like, it pisses me off sometimes, but I get to say so and for the most part no one stomps off in a huff and we work it out; I think that's absolutely amazing.

The hard part for me (as you well know) is maintaining momentum when life returns to "normal." That's the part I really really need to work on. It can't go back to that "normal." I don't mean the drinking normal obviously - I mean the basic run-of-the-mill doing ok normal.
Because clearly that had an undercurrent of toxicity that needed excavation. And, come to think of it Cow, that's one of the things you guys can help me with. Probe, push, prod. Just don't brand please.

(This is a good time to insert that the city limits are open and anyone who wants to pitch a tent is entirely welcome at any time. Don't be shy, please. Even if you are - throw caution to the wind and join us anyhow.)

I am 110% in agreement with your second two paragraphs and you just Blew. My. Mind. but I'm not surprised because this is completely in alignment with what I've been experiencing over the past several days.

Wow

dwtbd

O you know my 'struggles' are my Beast's , yeah ?

Obladi

Wait.
So you're saying literally all of your struggles substance and otherwise are your Beast's?

Also, I missed the reference to J Petersonian... I fear you mean Jordan Peterson?