AA and Religion in AA. Experience?
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 607
Originally Posted by paulokes 
I smoke too much, drink too much coffee and swear too much (frequently in AA meetings) 
If that is a religion...well it's my kind of religion
Have a great day x
P
If that is a religion...well it's my kind of religion Have a great day x
P
You should really try to give up the smoking. It's much harder than quitting drinking (at least for me) but it'll kill you quicker. Took my Mom and I'm watching it rapidly bring down a few people at my work.
Take care!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: CA
Posts: 1,060
I am a pretty private person at AA meetings. I share as little or as much as I want. I did/do my step work with someone I feel I can trust. I also have two separate sponsors that I did my 5th step with because I didn't feel comfortable sharing everything with either one.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: America
Posts: 4,136
I've heard a lot of people say "I don't care for AA or Al Anon because they bring God into it."
I believe in God, so I have a hard time understanding that statement. Maybe in some cases they are using that as an excuse to not go to AA.
Many people thrive on religiosity; others wilt. I've always been a very spiritual person, so the concept of getting help from a Higher Power is easy for me to tap into.
And I love the whole resentment prayer. It really really and truly works. If there is someone who has hurt me and maybe they don't even know they have hurt me; maybe they did on purpose; whatever the case may be; it does me absolutely zero good to resent them. The resentment does not take away the hurt. The only thing that seems to ease the pain is to let go....And I have found the beauty of letting go and letting God works over and over and over again.
I believe in God, so I have a hard time understanding that statement. Maybe in some cases they are using that as an excuse to not go to AA.
Many people thrive on religiosity; others wilt. I've always been a very spiritual person, so the concept of getting help from a Higher Power is easy for me to tap into.
And I love the whole resentment prayer. It really really and truly works. If there is someone who has hurt me and maybe they don't even know they have hurt me; maybe they did on purpose; whatever the case may be; it does me absolutely zero good to resent them. The resentment does not take away the hurt. The only thing that seems to ease the pain is to let go....And I have found the beauty of letting go and letting God works over and over and over again.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
Originally Posted by Doubter
What puts me off AA is having to write and read my life story out in front of other people and then having to give feedback to other peoples life stories and stepwork.
Give feedback on other people's life stories?
I think your AV could have manufactured these requirements for you.
People share their experiences, sure. But never by reading out anything they wrote in preparation. They just share as the memories are with them at that point - and no one is forced to do this.
Likewise, when people share back its just if they want to, and is certainly not supposed to be like an academic or critical feedback. Just thanking for the person sharing and saying what they found useful and related to. Again. Some people never share back in the open forum of a room, but save it for one to one chats with closer AA friends or their sponsor.
Wishing you all the best for your recovery. BB
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by esinger
I smoke too much, drink too much coffee and swear too much (frequently in AA meetings) If that is a religion...well it's my kind of religion
You should really try to give up the smoking. It's much harder than quitting drinking (at least for me) but it'll kill you quicker. Took my Mom and I'm watching it rapidly bring down a few people at my work.
Take care!
If that is a religion...well it's my kind of religion You should really try to give up the smoking. It's much harder than quitting drinking (at least for me) but it'll kill you quicker. Took my Mom and I'm watching it rapidly bring down a few people at my work.
Take care!
I described myself...you told me what I should do and change about myself.
What was it that troubled you about those damned religious types at AA
P
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by Doubter
What puts me off AA is having to write and read my life story out in front of other people and then having to give feedback to other peoples life stories and stepwork.
P
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Originally Posted by teatreeoil007
And I love the whole resentment prayer. It really really and truly works. If there is someone who has hurt me and maybe they don't even know they have hurt me; maybe they did on purpose; whatever the case may be; it does me absolutely zero good to resent them. The resentment does not take away the hurt. .
Suspending disbelief was aided by listening to Joe McQ and CharlieP and their talk on resentments and the 'replay' machine, which resonated deeply with the 'thinking' within myself. When someone harms me now, I just visualise that 'replay' machine, the distorted one which makes thinks larger, worse. I decide, no I don't want to make that recording thanks, because once made it becomes automatic and will play and replay, ad infinitum. .
So yes, that's letting go from my immediate self-defensive thoughts and reactions towards someone who's harmed me, so I don't record an automatic resentment disc, which would do nothing but harm me.
My experience is that the resentment prayer truly worked for me. I now have no resentments whatsoever towards those folks in the past. I do appreciate AAs guidance for that relief. I apologise if I've digressed too far from the thread title.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by Doubter
What puts me off AA is having to write and read my life story out in front of other people and then having to give feedback to other peoples life stories and stepwork.
We often create an impression that AA is all about meetings, and that you go to meetings to recover. This could lead someone to incorrectly assume that the recovery program is worked in the meetings., Part of it is, sharing experience strength and hope, but essentially the meetings are the fellowship, and our book suggests we share in a "general way" for very good reason.
The actual program of recovery, for those who chose to work it, is done away from the meetings with help from the people the person has selected. That is usually a sponsor, but may also include trusted friends, or even your priest if you are religious. Those deeply personal things are most definitely not for general consumption at meetings. They are kept strictly for the people you chose, in whom you have confidence.
Of course there is nothing compulsory about any of it. You may chose to try and take those secrets to the grave with you. The experience of those of us that tried that suggests that it may not be possible to stay sober and carry that stuff. But that's just our experience, yours may be different.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: CA
Posts: 1,060
Originally Posted by Gottalife
This post is a little off topic, but raises and important issue, albeit a misconception.
We often create an impression that AA is all about meetings, and that you go to meetings to recover. This could lead someone to incorrectly assume that the recovery program is worked in the meetings., Part of it is, sharing experience strength and hope, but essentially the meetings are the fellowship, and our book suggests we share in a "general way" for very good reason.
The actual program of recovery, for those who chose to work it, is done away from the meetings with help from the people the person has selected. That is usually a sponsor, but may also include trusted friends, or even your priest if you are religious. Those deeply personal things are most definitely not for general consumption at meetings. They are kept strictly for the people you chose, in whom you have confidence.
Of course there is nothing compulsory about any of it. You may chose to try and take those secrets to the grave with you. The experience of those of us that tried that suggests that it may not be possible to stay sober and carry that stuff. But that's just our experience, yours may be different.
We often create an impression that AA is all about meetings, and that you go to meetings to recover. This could lead someone to incorrectly assume that the recovery program is worked in the meetings., Part of it is, sharing experience strength and hope, but essentially the meetings are the fellowship, and our book suggests we share in a "general way" for very good reason.
The actual program of recovery, for those who chose to work it, is done away from the meetings with help from the people the person has selected. That is usually a sponsor, but may also include trusted friends, or even your priest if you are religious. Those deeply personal things are most definitely not for general consumption at meetings. They are kept strictly for the people you chose, in whom you have confidence.
Of course there is nothing compulsory about any of it. You may chose to try and take those secrets to the grave with you. The experience of those of us that tried that suggests that it may not be possible to stay sober and carry that stuff. But that's just our experience, yours may be different.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Tn
Posts: 3,043
When I say my prayers every morning, I say my AA prayers (3rd Step, 7th Step and 11th step (God, please help me learn and do your will today at all times), my 3 Catholic (i.e. Rosary prayers - not the whole Rosary) and the St. Francis Prayer.
I also go through the 3rd, 7th, and 11th Steps with God.
So far, I haven't had to drink.
I also go through the 3rd, 7th, and 11th Steps with God.
So far, I haven't had to drink.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by Doubter
What puts me off AA is having to write and read my life story out in front of other people and then having to give feedback to other peoples life stories and stepwork.
Last year went to rehab but could only afford 10 days and it's what we had to do. It was 12 step based. So I assume AA is the same.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Hi Doubter, that was an unfortunate experience. I was an AA member and in the groups, nobody was forced to share their life story, they could just sit and listen to other people. The only 'sharing of life story' was when step 4 was done and written, and then recounted at step 5, to another person of your choice. Didn't need to be an AAer, could be a priest, nun, etc. I just wanted to clear up the misunderstanding.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,950
People seem to think spirituality means you believe in God but don't go to church, and that religious means going to church. Spirit is something within, religious is something outside. So when you say, for example, that a religious person goes to church and thinks about fishing while a spiritual person goes fishing and thinks about God.. no, the person thinking about God is religious. The person thinking about the meaning off life independent of a a belief in God is spiritual but not religious. A person who goes to church is religious but may not be spiritual. Many Catholics are both religious and spiritual, but many are just religious, they go to church on Sunday.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Bill Wilson knew that some would see AA as a new religion, and he didn't want the Catholic church to ban Catholics from AA, as they had previously done with the Oxford Group. In his introduction to his talk to the National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism, Bill says the following:
This may be true in some respects, but that is not the whole story, since AA deviates from the Church in some regards. AA is essentially a distinct, Gnostic New Age religion, with influences from the Oxford Group, the New Thought Movement, and various other sources.
AA theology hinges on Step 1, in which the entity of addiction, the primal desire to drink, is regarded as a power greater than oneself -- a higher power in itself. It is on account of this, that alcoholics need another higher power to neutralize it. This is made explicit in Chapter 3 of the Big Book.
In Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, in the chapter on Step 1, Bill Wilson explains that this powerlessness over the desire to drink equates to hopelessness, since there is no way to conquer it by the unaided will. Free will simply does not exist with regard to the consumption of alcohol.
AA theology has a deterministic view of human nature as a result. This determinism, along with Gnostic influences, differentiate it from that of most Christian denominations, which generally espouse free will, and presume that human beings can restrain themselves against desire.
I consider it relevant that some AA members readily resort to simplistic characterizations of other religions, as evidenced by some posts in this thread. These characterizations don't make sense from a purely sharing for witnessing purpose, in which experience serves as a personal Gospel.
If we consider that the theology of other religions often contradicts that of AA, however, and that AA sees itself as distinct in that regard, it makes a little more sense. In some AA literature, AA is essentially described as a replacement religion for alcoholics.
For example, in the Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous pamphlet, which was written around 1940, and which is still sold by the AA Akron OH Intergroup today, it says the following:
Originally Posted by Bill Wilson
Every thoughtful A.A. realizes that the divine grace which has always flowed through the Church is the ultimate foundation on which A.A. rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian.
This may be true in some respects, but that is not the whole story, since AA deviates from the Church in some regards. AA is essentially a distinct, Gnostic New Age religion, with influences from the Oxford Group, the New Thought Movement, and various other sources.
AA theology hinges on Step 1, in which the entity of addiction, the primal desire to drink, is regarded as a power greater than oneself -- a higher power in itself. It is on account of this, that alcoholics need another higher power to neutralize it. This is made explicit in Chapter 3 of the Big Book.
In Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, in the chapter on Step 1, Bill Wilson explains that this powerlessness over the desire to drink equates to hopelessness, since there is no way to conquer it by the unaided will. Free will simply does not exist with regard to the consumption of alcohol.
AA theology has a deterministic view of human nature as a result. This determinism, along with Gnostic influences, differentiate it from that of most Christian denominations, which generally espouse free will, and presume that human beings can restrain themselves against desire.
I consider it relevant that some AA members readily resort to simplistic characterizations of other religions, as evidenced by some posts in this thread. These characterizations don't make sense from a purely sharing for witnessing purpose, in which experience serves as a personal Gospel.
If we consider that the theology of other religions often contradicts that of AA, however, and that AA sees itself as distinct in that regard, it makes a little more sense. In some AA literature, AA is essentially described as a replacement religion for alcoholics.
For example, in the Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous pamphlet, which was written around 1940, and which is still sold by the AA Akron OH Intergroup today, it says the following:
THE CHIEF AIM of mankind is to move toward a fullness of life. There is a school of philosophy that believes a fully rounded life is divided into four classifications, all of them being equal:
WORK, PLAY, LOVE and RELIGION.
Translating into terms of the alcoholic, we substitute ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS for RELIGION.
...
FIGURE 2: The abnormal pattern of our drinking days. Play dominates at the almost complete expense of everything else. Love is at a bare minimum, and has become almost extinct. We have a certain amount of affection for our dear ones, but our love for alcohol is far greater. Work is at a minimum. We work simply to assure ourselves of money to by liquor. And Religion, later to be replaced by AA, is entirely out of the picture...
WORK, PLAY, LOVE and RELIGION.
Translating into terms of the alcoholic, we substitute ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS for RELIGION.
...
FIGURE 2: The abnormal pattern of our drinking days. Play dominates at the almost complete expense of everything else. Love is at a bare minimum, and has become almost extinct. We have a certain amount of affection for our dear ones, but our love for alcohol is far greater. Work is at a minimum. We work simply to assure ourselves of money to by liquor. And Religion, later to be replaced by AA, is entirely out of the picture...
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
At last the word gnostic, meaning knowledge through experience, crops up. The gnostic gospels themselves were suppressed by the Christian church for centuries because they undermined the fundamental aspect of religion, the idea that you must go through the bishops (middle man) to get to God. And through excommunication the bishops could cut you off if they wanted. This human element in the middle is what puts me off organised religion.
AA believes or suggests a gnostic approach where it is absolutely possible for an individual to develop a working relationship with whatever power they think is out there, on a completely personal one to one basis. No middlemen. It seems when and alcoholic seriously sets out to do this by following the suggested steps towards this objective, he/ she will usually have some kind of conversion experience and arrive at a position where alcohol has become redundant, is no longer required. The middleman's human definitions and rules have been removed so their is no religious hierarchy, leaving every individual free to pursue their own spiritual development however they see fit.
The lack of a religious doctrine, unless you call complete freedom a doctrine, and the lack of controlling middlemen, has in my experience made it possible for me to find a spiritually rewarding sober path in life.
Maybe the attraction in that is in that old alcoholic mindset " no one is going to tell me what to do" stamp foot.
AA believes or suggests a gnostic approach where it is absolutely possible for an individual to develop a working relationship with whatever power they think is out there, on a completely personal one to one basis. No middlemen. It seems when and alcoholic seriously sets out to do this by following the suggested steps towards this objective, he/ she will usually have some kind of conversion experience and arrive at a position where alcohol has become redundant, is no longer required. The middleman's human definitions and rules have been removed so their is no religious hierarchy, leaving every individual free to pursue their own spiritual development however they see fit.
The lack of a religious doctrine, unless you call complete freedom a doctrine, and the lack of controlling middlemen, has in my experience made it possible for me to find a spiritually rewarding sober path in life.
Maybe the attraction in that is in that old alcoholic mindset " no one is going to tell me what to do" stamp foot.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 135
I like AA.
AA has been ruled a religious organization, several times over, in several states in the US.
https://aaagnostica.org/2012/05/27/t...-and-religion/
The meetings I've been to, often involve the Lord's prayer - THE Christian prayer.
It talks about God and Him, as far as I'm concerned, my experience has been that it is religious.
At first, I jumped right in, but more than a year later, I can't stand all the religious aspects. I wish the program would be modernized and the references to God were removed.
In the past few months, I've since left AA. I identify with Taoism and Buddhism, I miss the sober fellowship so I am considering checking out some agnostic meetings, though I don't want to go if all they do is bash AA, God & believers. (I think thats counter-productive.) If I can't find what I want, I'm going to start an agnostic meeting.
CJ
AA has been ruled a religious organization, several times over, in several states in the US.
https://aaagnostica.org/2012/05/27/t...-and-religion/
The meetings I've been to, often involve the Lord's prayer - THE Christian prayer.
It talks about God and Him, as far as I'm concerned, my experience has been that it is religious.
At first, I jumped right in, but more than a year later, I can't stand all the religious aspects. I wish the program would be modernized and the references to God were removed.
In the past few months, I've since left AA. I identify with Taoism and Buddhism, I miss the sober fellowship so I am considering checking out some agnostic meetings, though I don't want to go if all they do is bash AA, God & believers. (I think thats counter-productive.) If I can't find what I want, I'm going to start an agnostic meeting.
CJ
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
That's quite a dilemma, cejay. You like AA, but you also don't like AA, and want it to change, so that it is not religious, but you don't want anyone in AA to criticize the religiosity of AA, like you do. Perhaps you are mistaking AA for a secular support group?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 135
Algorithm,
There's a difference between criticize and bash. If the whole meeting is about AA's deficiencies and shortcomings, it's counter-productive, and I've heard this is a trend in some agnostic meetings - though don't have first hand experience.
AA can be, and is, a secular support group in some forms. Those are the versions of AA that are growing, the rest, as a whole is shrinking.
I criticize it because I like it and want to see it survive.
CJ
There's a difference between criticize and bash. If the whole meeting is about AA's deficiencies and shortcomings, it's counter-productive, and I've heard this is a trend in some agnostic meetings - though don't have first hand experience.
AA can be, and is, a secular support group in some forms. Those are the versions of AA that are growing, the rest, as a whole is shrinking.
I criticize it because I like it and want to see it survive.
CJ
Originally Posted by Algorithm
That's quite a dilemma, cejay. You like AA, but you also don't like AA, and want it to change, so that it is not religious, but you don't want anyone in AA to criticize the religiosity of AA, like you do. Perhaps you are mistaking AA for a secular support group?
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