AA and Religion in AA. Experience?
Just about every Lifering meeting I've gone to has turned at least periodically into an AA bash-fest, so certainly some secular support group meetings do attract people who are angry about their experiences with AA and want to share them. I think at some level that's helpful, for them, which is what matters. People who don't like religion tend not to stick around AA, people who can't stand AA tend to collect in the non-AA secular meetings, which is all fine. Whatever helps, helps, and there are plenty of different support options, especially online.
A good point to slip a little of the AA program in here I feel.
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you."
I feel like I am quite secular in my beliefs. When I started this journey I was quite anti god, and still today have a strange antagonistic reaction when certain religious figures are mentioned by name in a meeting. Thankfully it is rare, and of course it is my problem to deal with. I stayed away from one particular meeting for more than twenty years because it used the Lords prayer to close.
Oddly enough, today my home group does just that, and I am quite happy about it. Perhaps I was so desperate back then, that I was more interested in getting a result than arguing about the means, and it has grown on me over the years.
What would AA look like of you took the god bit out? Essentially the whole thing as a story of how some drunks sobered up using a spiritual experience idea that seems to have had its beginnings with Carl Jung and Rowland H, and a chain of events from there. We would have to rewrite history, deleting all reference to god, or remove all the charaters who recovered that way, which would include me. Yikes.
One element of this that remains a concern for me is a talk I heard from professor Doug Selman, head of the NZ National Addiction Council, Psychiatrist, and someone who has spent more than thirty years rsearching alcoholism, initlally setting out to prove AA doesn't work.
Just picking out a brief part of his talk, it was along the lines that there is a small group of AUD sufferers at the most extreme end of the scale for whom the only solution is some kind of conversion experience. (He explained that as a scientist he could not use the words "spritual experience" ) He stated medical science has no solution for this group, and no real progress has been made since about 1967 in this area.
If that's true, and I am in that group, what hope would I have if the spiritual element was cast out of AA?
Maybe leave AA as it is, and make use of the many other organisation such as those mentioned by Jeffrey AK?
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you."
I feel like I am quite secular in my beliefs. When I started this journey I was quite anti god, and still today have a strange antagonistic reaction when certain religious figures are mentioned by name in a meeting. Thankfully it is rare, and of course it is my problem to deal with. I stayed away from one particular meeting for more than twenty years because it used the Lords prayer to close.
Oddly enough, today my home group does just that, and I am quite happy about it. Perhaps I was so desperate back then, that I was more interested in getting a result than arguing about the means, and it has grown on me over the years.
What would AA look like of you took the god bit out? Essentially the whole thing as a story of how some drunks sobered up using a spiritual experience idea that seems to have had its beginnings with Carl Jung and Rowland H, and a chain of events from there. We would have to rewrite history, deleting all reference to god, or remove all the charaters who recovered that way, which would include me. Yikes.
One element of this that remains a concern for me is a talk I heard from professor Doug Selman, head of the NZ National Addiction Council, Psychiatrist, and someone who has spent more than thirty years rsearching alcoholism, initlally setting out to prove AA doesn't work.
Just picking out a brief part of his talk, it was along the lines that there is a small group of AUD sufferers at the most extreme end of the scale for whom the only solution is some kind of conversion experience. (He explained that as a scientist he could not use the words "spritual experience" ) He stated medical science has no solution for this group, and no real progress has been made since about 1967 in this area.
If that's true, and I am in that group, what hope would I have if the spiritual element was cast out of AA?
Maybe leave AA as it is, and make use of the many other organisation such as those mentioned by Jeffrey AK?
Left the bottle behind 4/16/2015
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 1,416
Being an atheist/agnostic for 30 years, I avoided AA like the plague. I didn't care whether it was a religious or spiritual program. If it was either, I wanted no part of it. I never actually tried it, but decided it wouldn't work, based upon philosophical and scientific reasons alone. I was quite satisfied with my conclusions. Meanwhile, I continued to drink myself to death. I had dispensed with solutions that didn't appeal to my own personal sensibilities, and resumed drinking until I was senseless.
When at the end of a 28-year long drinking career I finally fell low enough to turn to AA for a solution, I was ready to accept anything that didn't rely solely upon my strength. I had failed countless times to manage this illness on my own. At that point, it didn't matter whether I went to a great meeting or a terrible one, I just knew my way wasn't working anymore. It has only been through getting serious about the steps and really thinking about what they mean, that I have achieved a level of spirituality I had suppressed and denied for decades. It's a learning process that I believe will go on for the rest of my life, and I'm thoroughly enjoying the journey. I don't feel a need to explain or qualify that, any more than I feel a need to explain why I love chocolate. It took a willingness to at least try to believe in something I couldn't explain, something outside of, and larger than, myself. All those exercises in overthinking and analysis kept leading me to one dead end after another, and I didn't want to die that way.
When at the end of a 28-year long drinking career I finally fell low enough to turn to AA for a solution, I was ready to accept anything that didn't rely solely upon my strength. I had failed countless times to manage this illness on my own. At that point, it didn't matter whether I went to a great meeting or a terrible one, I just knew my way wasn't working anymore. It has only been through getting serious about the steps and really thinking about what they mean, that I have achieved a level of spirituality I had suppressed and denied for decades. It's a learning process that I believe will go on for the rest of my life, and I'm thoroughly enjoying the journey. I don't feel a need to explain or qualify that, any more than I feel a need to explain why I love chocolate. It took a willingness to at least try to believe in something I couldn't explain, something outside of, and larger than, myself. All those exercises in overthinking and analysis kept leading me to one dead end after another, and I didn't want to die that way.
Left the bottle behind 4/16/2015
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 1,416
That said, in the meetings themselves, I hear things that resonate with my own personal thoughts and feelings about religion and spirituality, and things that run totally counter to them. It doesn't really matter so long as no one is trying to convince the other that one way is better or more "right." (And some will certainly try. It's up to you as to whether or not you allow it.) I can accept that we're not likely to all agree on that aspect of the program, as it is highly individual and personalized.
That's a fair point KAD that any individual member waxing lyrical about any particular flavour of religion OR spirituality does not mean that AA endorses their view or that AA is a religious programme.
Folks that approach this spiritual angle willingly rather than by coercion seem to grasp that idea more effectively.
No AA member...or group. ..can tell another how to think.
P
Folks that approach this spiritual angle willingly rather than by coercion seem to grasp that idea more effectively.
No AA member...or group. ..can tell another how to think.
P
AA theology hinges on Step 1, in which the entity of addiction, the primal desire to drink, is regarded as a power greater than oneself -- a higher power in itself. It is on account of this, that alcoholics need another higher power to neutralize it. This is made explicit in Chapter 3 of the Big Book.
In Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, in the chapter on Step 1, Bill Wilson explains that this powerlessness over the desire to drink equates to hopelessness, since there is no way to conquer it by the unaided will. Free will simply does not exist with regard to the consumption of alcohol.:
In Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, in the chapter on Step 1, Bill Wilson explains that this powerlessness over the desire to drink equates to hopelessness, since there is no way to conquer it by the unaided will. Free will simply does not exist with regard to the consumption of alcohol.:
That said, I think that if AA works for people (and clearly it does) than that is a wonderful thing. It doesn't matter how we get to an end result in regards to drinking, just that we get there. I wish everyone struggling the best of luck in finding what works for them.
There was an interesting Note published in the Cornell Law Review in 2014, which discusses the origins of AA, and the various influences on its development. It is fairly comprehensive.
The Religion of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA): Applying the Clergy Privilege To Certain AA Communications by Ari J. Diaconis
The Religion of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA): Applying the Clergy Privilege To Certain AA Communications by Ari J. Diaconis
^ Algorithm contentious point here...today my personal experience of something (Anything) tops somebody else academic opinion of it.
Otherwise known as not expressing Contempt prior to investigation.
I also value other people's experiences and what they mean to them on a personal level...Wouldn't dream of trying to explain to them what's really going on for them
If someone says they found AA to be too religious I value that. If someone says AA is religious because they found it to be so...well. ..
P
Otherwise known as not expressing Contempt prior to investigation.
I also value other people's experiences and what they mean to them on a personal level...Wouldn't dream of trying to explain to them what's really going on for them
If someone says they found AA to be too religious I value that. If someone says AA is religious because they found it to be so...well. ..
P
The article was awarded the first place Cornell Law Library Prize for Exemplary Student Research. Given the scope of what the author is recommending, which many in the justice system oppose, since it would make their jobs more difficult, I would not be surprised if Diaconis is an AA member himself.
Regardless, it is fairly comprehensive, and well researched. He cites his sources, some of which are original Oxford Group literature.
I'm very aware that we are writing from different perspectives here...but hey...
Yes I'm quite sure that research might suggest AA could legally be described as a religion. Just as in the UK it is legally defined as a charity. Doesn't make either of those things true in the subjective experience of the many folk who make AA a cornerstone of their lives
Out of interest a Jaffa Cake is legally defined as a biscuit...That's an English reference Makes absolutely no difference to people's experience of enjoying a Jaffa Cake...just a tax thing.
Jaffa Cakes are not cakes: 10 reasons why the Jaffa is a biscuit | Metro News
P
Yes I'm quite sure that research might suggest AA could legally be described as a religion. Just as in the UK it is legally defined as a charity. Doesn't make either of those things true in the subjective experience of the many folk who make AA a cornerstone of their lives
Out of interest a Jaffa Cake is legally defined as a biscuit...That's an English reference Makes absolutely no difference to people's experience of enjoying a Jaffa Cake...just a tax thing.
Jaffa Cakes are not cakes: 10 reasons why the Jaffa is a biscuit | Metro News
P
So just to clarify....
UK courts made an exceptional change to the law so that AA might be considered as a Charity...not that it behaves like a normal charity but solely because the courts felt AA should not be an entity expected to pay tax on voluntarily collected contributions. The law was twisted to achieve the correct outcome in principle.
Your friend in his article argues that people say very personal things to each other in AA and that confidentiality is important. Existing law does not allow for complete anonymity with regards to criminal activity so he argues AA COULD be classed as a religion...and this conferred the same confidentiality allowances as a clergy-parishioner relationship. So the right outcome is achieved in PRINCIPLE by twisting of the law.
That's what lawyers do. Just like they reclassify cakes to save on tax duty Or financial advisors do to sabe their wealthy clients a little dough
I don't have to let any of these quirks redefine or invalidate my own hard fought experience
P
UK courts made an exceptional change to the law so that AA might be considered as a Charity...not that it behaves like a normal charity but solely because the courts felt AA should not be an entity expected to pay tax on voluntarily collected contributions. The law was twisted to achieve the correct outcome in principle.
Your friend in his article argues that people say very personal things to each other in AA and that confidentiality is important. Existing law does not allow for complete anonymity with regards to criminal activity so he argues AA COULD be classed as a religion...and this conferred the same confidentiality allowances as a clergy-parishioner relationship. So the right outcome is achieved in PRINCIPLE by twisting of the law.
That's what lawyers do. Just like they reclassify cakes to save on tax duty Or financial advisors do to sabe their wealthy clients a little dough
I don't have to let any of these quirks redefine or invalidate my own hard fought experience
P
Kin NZ I believe AA is classed as a "not for profit" organisation and not subject to income tax. The point about confidentiality is a very good one. AA and AA members have no special privileges or protection under the law, which is ne reasonI often suggest clergy for step five.
Whether we would want any such protection is another question. My feeling is that our way of life involves fronting up to past wrongs, which may mean facing jail or some other legal sanction. Having the sanctity of confession type protection does not remove the possibility of being caught by some other means, so the individual, would still be under pressure, and still living with an unresolved issue, which in AA experience, often leads to more drinking.
It never occurred to me that being classed as a religion might give that kind of privilege, but if I was asked to vote on it, I would vote against it.
Whether we would want any such protection is another question. My feeling is that our way of life involves fronting up to past wrongs, which may mean facing jail or some other legal sanction. Having the sanctity of confession type protection does not remove the possibility of being caught by some other means, so the individual, would still be under pressure, and still living with an unresolved issue, which in AA experience, often leads to more drinking.
It never occurred to me that being classed as a religion might give that kind of privilege, but if I was asked to vote on it, I would vote against it.
ok, AA is a religion because the courts say so.
an athiest,catholic,buddist, jew, christian, agnostic, muslim,hindu,mormon walk into an AA meeting.
which religion is it.
and does it matter? is it more important to help the next sick and suffering alcoholic or debate if AA is a religious organization?
an athiest,catholic,buddist, jew, christian, agnostic, muslim,hindu,mormon walk into an AA meeting.
which religion is it.
and does it matter? is it more important to help the next sick and suffering alcoholic or debate if AA is a religious organization?
I stayed away from AA with the excuse that it was about god, but really that was a red herring in my case. Having read these posts, I could conclude that the majority have not found religion to be pushed on them, nor have they found anything too conflicting with their personal beliefs, to the extent that it might block them from recovery. It would be harder for me to use religion as an excuse if I accepted this experience.
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
The original thread was to draw out personal experience as to whether those attending meetings found a religious aspect and if they did, what sort of problems might have come from it.
The idea that one who is truly atheist can readily and easily follow the program because "Look you can be atheist...read chapter 4!!!" is odd to me. Anyone who has studied chapter 4 can clearly see that the expectation is that one can find a god of their understanding, if they just try hard enough. And that they must if they truly want to recover.
Originally Posted by Chapter 4 of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life - or else.
But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics.
We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.
We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.
But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics.
We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.
We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.
Originally Posted by chapter 4 of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
We found, too, that we had been worshippers.
In one form or another we had been living by faith and little else.
In one form or another we had been living by faith and little else.
When I say that I have been happily free of alcohol for a long time without a belief in a higher power, it seems that I always get a pretty similar response. Something along the lines of "Oh so you believe you are more powerful than anything in the Universe?" Um...no, not even close to what I said. I absolutely believe there are powers greater than myself. To believe otherwise is kind of ridiculous. I cannot make the earth rotate. I am not more powerful than gravity, or electricity. I can't create or stop a natural disaster. I mean seriously that goes without saying. But what's that got to do with my addiction to alcohol? In relation to me ending my addiction to alcohol, the higher powers that be don't apply.
I hope it goes without saying that all of the above is my opinion, noted here because of the invitation to share experiences. I have many AA friends and many religious friends with whom I get along swimmingly well. We've learned much from each other through respectful discourse.
Here's what I have found...
To quote the Big Book (4th edition or any other edition, AAWS) "Men of Faith have courage".
I pray. I particularly pray when I have to go do something hard, scary or generally unsavoury that I DON'T want to do, but know somewhere in my heart I probably need to do. I pray for courage, not for a particular outcome. AA taught me how to do this.
I still have only a vague notion of what I'm praying to. AA has taught me that it works regardless.
The old me wouldn't have bought that crap...would have heard someone like me and felt sorry for them...like they were pulling some kind of Jedi mind trick on themselves or had become intentionally stupid enough to swallow the line.
AA allowed me to become more open minded...to find a "Power greater than myself"...which I don't understand...that allows me to do many many things I could never do before. Including not drink. Or cope with formerly impossible life situations with good nature, good humour, and without drinking.
Yep...that language in the book kinda makes it feel like they are just trying to hoodwink you into getting religious...but that still has not been my experience. Personally I think it's just a feature of the time in which the book was written, the origins of the fellowship and the prevailing mood of society at the time.
Who knows and who cares? Men of faith have courage, and heart...compassion. Today I have faith. I am more courageous and compassionate than I have ever been. I am still not religious.
Thank "God" for AA...and the ability to choose my own conception of "God"...
Not choose which other persons conception of God I wanted to take on board...which template I was gonna follow....literally choose and begin with my own unique and personal conception which has grown into something much deeper and more powerful...and much more effective.
P
To quote the Big Book (4th edition or any other edition, AAWS) "Men of Faith have courage".
I pray. I particularly pray when I have to go do something hard, scary or generally unsavoury that I DON'T want to do, but know somewhere in my heart I probably need to do. I pray for courage, not for a particular outcome. AA taught me how to do this.
I still have only a vague notion of what I'm praying to. AA has taught me that it works regardless.
The old me wouldn't have bought that crap...would have heard someone like me and felt sorry for them...like they were pulling some kind of Jedi mind trick on themselves or had become intentionally stupid enough to swallow the line.
AA allowed me to become more open minded...to find a "Power greater than myself"...which I don't understand...that allows me to do many many things I could never do before. Including not drink. Or cope with formerly impossible life situations with good nature, good humour, and without drinking.
Yep...that language in the book kinda makes it feel like they are just trying to hoodwink you into getting religious...but that still has not been my experience. Personally I think it's just a feature of the time in which the book was written, the origins of the fellowship and the prevailing mood of society at the time.
Who knows and who cares? Men of faith have courage, and heart...compassion. Today I have faith. I am more courageous and compassionate than I have ever been. I am still not religious.
Thank "God" for AA...and the ability to choose my own conception of "God"...
Not choose which other persons conception of God I wanted to take on board...which template I was gonna follow....literally choose and begin with my own unique and personal conception which has grown into something much deeper and more powerful...and much more effective.
P
^ One more point...there is a distinction in my mind between a "Power greater than myself" and a "Higher Power". The former has been a meaningful and powerful concept for me, the latter always feels wooly.
Fortunately I don't feel the need to explain that for anyone else....it's just for me
P
Fortunately I don't feel the need to explain that for anyone else....it's just for me
P
so glad you mention that last point about the difference there, paul.
i feel the same way and don't usually ever hear people make that distinction.
i have attributed it to the shorter HP being so much quicker to say, and do wonder, though, if for many the phrases are interchangeable?
i feel the same way and don't usually ever hear people make that distinction.
i have attributed it to the shorter HP being so much quicker to say, and do wonder, though, if for many the phrases are interchangeable?
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by paulokes
^ One more point...there is a distinction in my mind between a "Power greater than myself" and a "Higher Power". The former has been a meaningful and powerful concept for me, the latter always feels wooly.
AA does not say that any one higher power must be accepted, but the program as outlined does imply that the power is "not you". For those of us who believe that the power is ourselves, that is where the disconnect comes in. I am certainly not one who thinks the program should be changed. I think it's works for those who embrace spirituality in some form and that's a good thing. My only problem comes in when people tell me that it simply cannot be done without an outside force, because that certainly isn't a universal truth.
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