Alcohol in the house
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 727
Statistics???..Studies..???..Will show exactly what the auther wants them to.Exactly what his/her intentions are.If i want to put AA down,i can get info to do that.Twist it to suit self.I twist it,by leaving out ALL,the info about AA,.If i want to put AA, up,i can do that too.The issue is,wherever ya go you are going to meet people.Sick folks learning how to live sober,and useful lives.WE,,are NOT,Saints.NO programs, have them.You will meet up with the same type of folks wherever ya go..The thumpers,the must do folks,,etc..They are all ,there.The spice of life....If i want info,about AA or any other programs i go myself.To relay on others, info about any program is my being lazy.I dont want to do the work it takes to go,and get "my" info.I could "read' all i want to.But until i personally go,i do not ...know..I only know what others want me to.And if im looking for negitives,i will find them.If im not looking for negitives,i will find that also.I see what i want to see.Even in my mirror.
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,,take care!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,,take care!!!!!!!!!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
Wow! it is a simple program for complicated people. 
At the end of some of the meetings I attend we read something that goes like this...(I'll probably misquote it)
"Please do not judge NA by what you may or may not have heard here today. Just as each of us has different personalities, so do our groups. Please get to as many different meetings as possible"
I think the idea of attending different meetings is so we can hear as many of our members do what they do best which is sharing the simple uncofusing, life saving message of NA.
I don't know if AA meetings have any reminders of this sort of thing, but I do know that if I went to as many AA meetings as possible I would find some great folks, whose recovery I admired and stories I could relate to.
I needed to get my brain a little washed at first. I was severely challenged making consistently healthy decisions. I like what longboarder said about being faced with the use don't/use decision. I was plagued with that choice to incapacity for my first few months. Eventually the desire to pick up was relieved. Having a support network ( for me of people in the rooms) to remind me of the things I stood to lose if I picked up again, helped me in the weak moments, and those people still help me mul over my questionable decisions as I am in the process of making them. I have friends not in any program who bounce their decisions off of others. It's kind of interesting to me that the program has helped me learn to do things like "normal" people do.
Each of us is likely to come to an understanding for ourself... of how recovery/abstinance/moderation works for us.
It is the common goal of all of us to try and help each other with those misunderstandings that keep us in the bondage and suffering of hopeless living conditions.
For the new person interested in attending meetings, please do give them a try and decide for yourself. Explore all the options you can and take a good look at each. Don't pass one up because it necessarily looks more difficult than another. Usually the best things we do for ourselves come with the most effort and committment.
At the end of some of the meetings I attend we read something that goes like this...(I'll probably misquote it)
"Please do not judge NA by what you may or may not have heard here today. Just as each of us has different personalities, so do our groups. Please get to as many different meetings as possible"
I think the idea of attending different meetings is so we can hear as many of our members do what they do best which is sharing the simple uncofusing, life saving message of NA.
I don't know if AA meetings have any reminders of this sort of thing, but I do know that if I went to as many AA meetings as possible I would find some great folks, whose recovery I admired and stories I could relate to.
I needed to get my brain a little washed at first. I was severely challenged making consistently healthy decisions. I like what longboarder said about being faced with the use don't/use decision. I was plagued with that choice to incapacity for my first few months. Eventually the desire to pick up was relieved. Having a support network ( for me of people in the rooms) to remind me of the things I stood to lose if I picked up again, helped me in the weak moments, and those people still help me mul over my questionable decisions as I am in the process of making them. I have friends not in any program who bounce their decisions off of others. It's kind of interesting to me that the program has helped me learn to do things like "normal" people do.
Each of us is likely to come to an understanding for ourself... of how recovery/abstinance/moderation works for us.
It is the common goal of all of us to try and help each other with those misunderstandings that keep us in the bondage and suffering of hopeless living conditions.
For the new person interested in attending meetings, please do give them a try and decide for yourself. Explore all the options you can and take a good look at each. Don't pass one up because it necessarily looks more difficult than another. Usually the best things we do for ourselves come with the most effort and committment.
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Originally Posted by Music
On the other hand, if a person wants to come here and say stupid things like "the Supreme Court ruled that AA was a religious program" the Big Book is set aside and the gloves come off. That's crap and both of you know it. To make a statement like AA is only 5% successful?? I say it's 100% successful for those people who work the AA program and don't drink. So, that's where I stand. If either of you were to sit in a meeting I was attending and start spouting off dribble like some of the crap I see printed here misquoting the Big Book and mis-representing AA, I'd stop you and ask you to explain yourself.
To come here with some degree of humility is one thing. To jump in here with both feet and start demanding that people say or don't say what I think I don't want to hear isn't going to happen without some kind of response from me. You two can handle it any way you care to.
To come here with some degree of humility is one thing. To jump in here with both feet and start demanding that people say or don't say what I think I don't want to hear isn't going to happen without some kind of response from me. You two can handle it any way you care to.
Music I sense from your words that you think I am in disagreement with your views or your approach to carrying the message.Allow me to clear the air a bit...........I am not.
I too have no idea where the 5 % nonsense originated neither do I really care.I am more concerned however with the power of The Supreme Court making such an inaccurate statement.
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by Patsyd1
Don, those studies that you are posting were done by outside agencies that took about 300 arrested drunks, and they kept records on them resulting from the court that ordered them to AA. AA had nothing to do with these people that are so called coerced status.
Those people who are being court ordered are not AA members, unless they say so. Those statics of your are based on outside sources, namely the courts and treatment centers that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Alcoholics Anonymous at all.
I find it funny Don that you would post statements that say that AA did the survey. Thats crap, complete crap. The courts did the survey's along with others who were involved OUTSIDE of AA and they took people who were arrested and didn't want to be in AA at all, but were court ordered there. AA has no say over where or what the courts do with people who come before them or the surveys that the courts and others do.
Its insulting to read the things that you claim that are from AA. Go and read it again Don, it came from the courts, and surveys done on those who were arrested or in treatment centers.... and AA wasn't involved at all in these surveys.
The other thing that I would like for you to know Don, is that the other study claiming that AA did the survey....... I have news for you Don, I have been in AA and very active for 15 yrs. I have never not once seen this survey that you speak of, I have never once been asked to make one out, or answer any questions by AA, the AA group or any individual in AA.
Are they keeping these survey's so secret, that they hide them from AA members too Don?
The survey's that you talk about had nothing to do with AA. And Since you have never been to a meeting, and do not ever intend to even look into a real meeting, then anything that you post Don would be coming from anywhere and everywhere else, and certainly not from AA.
We can all post survey's Don of just about anything, and all those surveys would be printings what they found from the sources they used, and AA isn't one of them.
I have suggestion for you Don, please call AA World Services and get the facts about what you post, before you post.
To be honest with you Don, your own prejudice against AA is so apparent. If what you are doing is working for you Don, why in God's name would you spend so much of your time and efforts to post things about AA that are coming from sources that have nothing to do with AA at all. Amazing just amazing.
Please get honest Don, AA had absolutely nothing to do with court ordering anyone, anywhere. Looking for someone to blame Don for this 15 yr old's death? Good, then find out why this judge made the decision to court order a 15 yr old boy into Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, when this boy's problem was depression and smoking pot. Now that would something worth your time and effort Don, because holding AA responsible and accountable for what a judge orders in court, is ludicrist at best. I can assure you that AA is not consulted by any judge or court when they make their determinations, their findings or their court orders.
Take care Don, and I have found these lastest postings of yours, full of more misinformation and out right deceit, to very unsettling indeed. Whats unsettling to me is that you post as if you have valid information from AA, and what you have are misinformed surveys from every source claiming, just as you are doing, that its from AA. When the facts are that this misinformation is from everywhere and everyone.... but AA.
Those people who are being court ordered are not AA members, unless they say so. Those statics of your are based on outside sources, namely the courts and treatment centers that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Alcoholics Anonymous at all.
I find it funny Don that you would post statements that say that AA did the survey. Thats crap, complete crap. The courts did the survey's along with others who were involved OUTSIDE of AA and they took people who were arrested and didn't want to be in AA at all, but were court ordered there. AA has no say over where or what the courts do with people who come before them or the surveys that the courts and others do.
Its insulting to read the things that you claim that are from AA. Go and read it again Don, it came from the courts, and surveys done on those who were arrested or in treatment centers.... and AA wasn't involved at all in these surveys.
The other thing that I would like for you to know Don, is that the other study claiming that AA did the survey....... I have news for you Don, I have been in AA and very active for 15 yrs. I have never not once seen this survey that you speak of, I have never once been asked to make one out, or answer any questions by AA, the AA group or any individual in AA.
Are they keeping these survey's so secret, that they hide them from AA members too Don?
The survey's that you talk about had nothing to do with AA. And Since you have never been to a meeting, and do not ever intend to even look into a real meeting, then anything that you post Don would be coming from anywhere and everywhere else, and certainly not from AA.
We can all post survey's Don of just about anything, and all those surveys would be printings what they found from the sources they used, and AA isn't one of them.
I have suggestion for you Don, please call AA World Services and get the facts about what you post, before you post.
To be honest with you Don, your own prejudice against AA is so apparent. If what you are doing is working for you Don, why in God's name would you spend so much of your time and efforts to post things about AA that are coming from sources that have nothing to do with AA at all. Amazing just amazing.
Please get honest Don, AA had absolutely nothing to do with court ordering anyone, anywhere. Looking for someone to blame Don for this 15 yr old's death? Good, then find out why this judge made the decision to court order a 15 yr old boy into Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, when this boy's problem was depression and smoking pot. Now that would something worth your time and effort Don, because holding AA responsible and accountable for what a judge orders in court, is ludicrist at best. I can assure you that AA is not consulted by any judge or court when they make their determinations, their findings or their court orders.
Take care Don, and I have found these lastest postings of yours, full of more misinformation and out right deceit, to very unsettling indeed. Whats unsettling to me is that you post as if you have valid information from AA, and what you have are misinformed surveys from every source claiming, just as you are doing, that its from AA. When the facts are that this misinformation is from everywhere and everyone.... but AA.
The analysis which you refer to as 'crap, absolute crap' is AA's own internal analysis of their own membership surveys. Fox obtained it by writing to AA. World Services, Box 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163, and enclosing $2, and 'with time and persistence managed to get a copy from the New York office.'
So which part of all this is 'insulting'? Do you or do you not believe that AA surveys their member? They did five triennial surveys between 1977 and 1989. You can get their review of those in Brochure P-48, if you simply want to prove to your own satisfaction that I am not a liar and that they actually do survey their members. I don't know, are you saying I'm making this up?
"The courts did the survey's along with others who were involved OUTSIDE of AA..."
Courts don't do surveys. It would be very useful if AA would do research to substantiate their own efficacy, but they don't.
"...why in God's name would you spend so much of your time and efforts to post things about AA that are coming from sources that have nothing to do with AA at all. Amazing just amazing."
Because people advocate AA on this forum with absolute praise that is practically evangelical. It is the most commonly recommended approach to recovery. All other programs deal with the refugees from the 12-step movement. Music says it is a perfect program. It isn't. You said it is never harmful. I believe it can be.
"Whats unsettling to me is that you post as if you have valid information from AA, and what you have are misinformed surveys from every source claiming, just as you are doing, that its from AA."
You don't want to believe them. That's obvious. But every researcher who has reviewed the approach, including those who really, really want it to work, has come to the same conclusion:12-step treatment, including AA, can not be shown to be more effective than any other treatment or than no treatment at all.
I gave the example of the 15 year old who committed suicide to reply to your absolute assertion that AA is never harmful. It can be. Sending a depressed teenage pot smoker to AA is stupid and the message he received when he got there turned out to be very harmful.
Don S
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
Originally Posted by Don S
I gave the example of the 15 year old who committed suicide to reply to your absolute assertion that AA is never harmful. It can be.
Don S
Don S
Airplanes and machine guns aren''t dangerous until a human picks them up and weilds the power.
Are we as quick to blame the substance for our behaviour? Iif we do we will never recognize our choice to use or not.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by Gooch
Wow! it is a simple program for complicated people.
At the end of some of the meetings I attend we read something that goes like this...(I'll probably misquote it)
"Please do not judge NA by what you may or may not have heard here today. Just as each of us has different personalities, so do our groups. Please get to as many different meetings as possible"
I think the idea of attending different meetings is so we can hear as many of our members do what they do best which is sharing the simple uncofusing, life saving message of NA.
I don't know if AA meetings have any reminders of this sort of thing,
snip
At the end of some of the meetings I attend we read something that goes like this...(I'll probably misquote it)
"Please do not judge NA by what you may or may not have heard here today. Just as each of us has different personalities, so do our groups. Please get to as many different meetings as possible"
I think the idea of attending different meetings is so we can hear as many of our members do what they do best which is sharing the simple uncofusing, life saving message of NA.
I don't know if AA meetings have any reminders of this sort of thing,
snip
Don S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally Posted by Peter
Music I sense from your words that you think I am in disagreement with your views or your approach to carrying the message.Allow me to clear the air a bit...........I am not.
I too have no idea where the 5 % nonsense originated neither do I really care.I am more concerned however with the power of The Supreme Court making such an inaccurate statement.
I too have no idea where the 5 % nonsense originated neither do I really care.I am more concerned however with the power of The Supreme Court making such an inaccurate statement.
As far as carrying the message. Although AA hasn't changed, times have changed. People don't come to AA as much nowdays as they used to. When person is beaten down to the point that their only salvation is to work their way up, their attitude is a lot different. They're more willing to listen and not argue. These days a lot of people come to AA through the courts and through teatment centers, thinking they know entirely too much and they tend to be cocky. My message hasn't changed since I came to AA but my method of delivery definately has. People I talk to will either listen, or they won't. Either way, it's no skin off my nose. They'll either find another person to talk to, try another method of getting sober, or they'll go back out and drink. Or, maybe they can quit on their own. God love them if they can 'cause I know I couldn't.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by Cap3
Statistics???..Studies..???..Will show exactly what the auther wants them to.Exactly what his/her intentions are.If i want to put AA down,i can get info to do that.Twist it to suit self.I twist it,by leaving out ALL,the info about AA,.If i want to put AA, up,i can do that too.The issue is,wherever ya go you are going to meet people.Sick folks learning how to live sober,and useful lives.WE,,are NOT,Saints.NO programs, have them.You will meet up with the same type of folks wherever ya go..The thumpers,the must do folks,,etc..They are all ,there.The spice of life....If i want info,about AA or any other programs i go myself.To relay on others, info about any program is my being lazy.I dont want to do the work it takes to go,and get "my" info.I could "read' all i want to.But until i personally go,i do not ...know..I only know what others want me to.And if im looking for negitives,i will find them.If im not looking for negitives,i will find that also.I see what i want to see.Even in my mirror.
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,,take care!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,,take care!!!!!!!!!
First of all, many of the researchers who have reviewed 12-step treatment programs were sincerely hoping to find that their programs were effective. They didn't.
Second, any researcher CAN, as you say, set up a study and come up with a pre-determined outcome. But that's the nice thing about the peer-review process of the scientific method. There is always another researcher out there who can try to duplicate or refute the results, or an impartial academic who can assess the validity of the study.
America's treatment industry is heavily oriented towards and invested in the 12-step approach. Researchers who come up with conclusions that minimize its effectiveness have been severely criticized--even ostracized. Folks like Stanton Peele who summarize the research and produce conclusions that minimize the effectiveness of current treatment do so in the face of considerable opposition.
If you want information about how effective AA may be for you, going to meetings is a fine way to find out. If you want information about how effective AA is likely to be in general, I imagine that meetings are not the place you're going to get the information. I have no quarrel with your approach regarding your own recovery, but if someone is going to assert that AA is a perfect program, and another is going to assert that it has never harmed anyone, I think the place to assess the accuracy of either of those statements is not in the halls of AA.
Don S
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Don S
One conclusion I am coming to from this forum is that NA is rather different in application, tone, attitude, philosophy--I'm not sure what--from AA. I'm curious if those of you who have worked in both would agree.
I'm a drug addict, and my favorite drug happens to be a legal one, alcohol.
I'm just lucky that way
This might interest you Don...
http://www.na.org/bulletins/bull13-r.htm
A short perspective from NA World Office about AA.
I call myself an addict because I have never met a substance I didn't abuse. And I willingly accepted the consequences for as long as I humanly could. I call that being diseased. Doesn't really matter.
You still got some HP for sale Don?
How much in canadian funds
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally Posted by Don S
If you want information about how effective AA may be for you, going to meetings is a fine way to find out. If you want information about how effective AA is likely to be in general, I imagine that meetings are not the place you're going to get the information. I have no quarrel with your approach regarding your own recovery, but if someone is going to assert that AA is a perfect program, and another is going to assert that it has never harmed anyone, I think the place to assess the accuracy of either of those statements is not in the halls of AA.
Don S
Don S
I agree with you Cap. If there was money riding on a particular conclusion, I'd make damn sure that conclusion was met. Back when treatment centers seemed like a good idea, AA and the 12 steps were used until the federal government, mainly the military medical department banned the use of the AA program and the 12 steps. Other methods were tried. The names of some centers were changed from "Alcohol" treatment to "Behavioral Modification" so that the treatment center could expand and treat drugs as well as alcohol, all in the name of making a buck or two. The success of treatment centers was so dismal, funds were cut down and off in some cases, even insurance companies stopped paying because of the failure rate. Treatment centers are what they are, and the method they use is completely useless and meaningless until or unless the patient wants to quit drinking. I've made comments about methods other than AA and was brought up short when I was mistaken. I still say however that the proof is in the pudding. When RR, Stanton Peele, or any of the other programs can boast sobriety times of 55 to 60 years in some cases, and can site millions of success stories all over the globe, in every country where people are will to grasp the idea of a Higher Power of their understanding; where even in Communist China people are so desparate to gain sobriety that they have their meetings underground so as not to attract the attention of their ATHEIST rulers, I'll personally put these programs on the same level with AA. Until then, no deal. And as long as we're spewing out statistics, how does on prove that most "sober alcoholics" get sober without any help from anyone or anything at all?
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Let's see...my postings are 'crap, absolute crap....insulting....'
The data I present is obviously made up or something; I'm engaging in 'outright deceit' and it's all misinformation. Any assertions I make are 'ridiculous' because I've never been to an AA meeting. My 'prejudice is apparent'.
The research must be biased, the researchers all had a pre-conceived outcome in mind (even those who support 12-step based programs; maybe they just secretly wanted their life's work to be proven wrong?).
Oh, yeah, and the Supreme Court justices are 'black-cloaked old farts'! Good'un, Music!
Talk about contempt prior to investigation!
Patsy, Music--you have attacked my veracity, my motives, and questioned my sources. That is a standard rhetorical device.
You can do this research as easily as I have. The information is out there if you care to look into it. Will you at least acknowledge, Patsy, that the AA surveys I've cited exist?
Just for the record again, Music, I have nothing whatever to do with RR, and Stanton Peele is not a 'program'--he's a respected addiction researcher. I'd give you an answer to your 'sober alcoholics' question, but I'm not sure you'd believe me.
Don S
The data I present is obviously made up or something; I'm engaging in 'outright deceit' and it's all misinformation. Any assertions I make are 'ridiculous' because I've never been to an AA meeting. My 'prejudice is apparent'.
The research must be biased, the researchers all had a pre-conceived outcome in mind (even those who support 12-step based programs; maybe they just secretly wanted their life's work to be proven wrong?).
Oh, yeah, and the Supreme Court justices are 'black-cloaked old farts'! Good'un, Music!
Talk about contempt prior to investigation!
Patsy, Music--you have attacked my veracity, my motives, and questioned my sources. That is a standard rhetorical device.
You can do this research as easily as I have. The information is out there if you care to look into it. Will you at least acknowledge, Patsy, that the AA surveys I've cited exist?
Just for the record again, Music, I have nothing whatever to do with RR, and Stanton Peele is not a 'program'--he's a respected addiction researcher. I'd give you an answer to your 'sober alcoholics' question, but I'm not sure you'd believe me.
Don S
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
There are many factors in this triennial survey that make any kind of accuracy virtually impossible. First, the triennial surveys by AA itself are anything but accurate, and A.A. itself makes that very clear and its AA that says so. This is because only "groups" are surveyed, and many in one group go to several other groups and meetings each week and are surveyed more than once. Most are simply never the subject of a survey and certainly not a survey conducted by statistical standards.
I personally have been an active member of AA for 15 yrs, and I have never ever seen this triennial survey and I have never been asked to make one out. I can share this with you, that I wouldn't make one out even if I had seen one, as most AA members in my opinion wouldn't.
I am aware of this fact though, that from your own mouth you have never ever been to an AA meeting, and are quite satisfied to read about AA meetings, AA members, and AA statistics, and base your opinion on that, rather than find out the truth by actually going to an AA meeting for yourself.
I have learned not to believe everything that I read, everything that someone tells me, and if its something of value to me, I go and find out for myself. In AA, we call that "doing the footwork"
I will listen to your opinons on AA Don, when and if you actually obtain facts. Until then, what I am seeing from you Don is posted surveys to back up what you "believe" that you know according to surveys that are completely inaccurate and for the most part totally misinformed and biased for their own agenda.
No Don, just a master at manipulating the truth, by not posting ALL the facts.
Well Don, do they or don't they substantiate? First you say that AA's survey is proof. Then you state that it would be very useful if AA would do research. So which is it Don? Well I can share this with you because I am a member of AA....they DON'T. Don, your leaving out the fact that AA itself states that the triennial surveys are not accurate for any kind of data, because there is no way to get any kind of accurate data IN AA meetings. Don to make sure that your views "seem" accurate, you have used surveys that are completely against AA or just totally uneducated about AA. The so called AA members that were used, were not in fact AA members at all. By your own admission 45 % of them were coerced into AA by the courts........THOSE ARE NOT AA MEMBERS DON, those are people who have been court ordered to attend AA meetings. Attending AA meetings does not make one an AA member.
We here in the halls of AA are not lawyers, we are not investigators, we do not KEEP anyone sober, nevermind keeping anyone from being rearrested. LOL
Don, AA is for those who WANT it, not necessarily for those who need it, or for those being coerced by a court order that stipulates that its a condition of their probation. That is not a desire or a want to stay sober. These are NOT AA members, these were people who once again were COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, and being ordered to AA meetings ISN'T an AA member, its a person who broke the law and was court ordered to go to AA or else. Not ordered by AA, by ordered by the judge in the courtroom as part of their sentence for whatever law they broke. AA members are members when they say they are.......not when some court, some survey or some study says they are.
Don, according to Vaillant's study that you have posted, he states that AA by their own study, and I am assuming that you mean the triennial surveys that you speak of, as being their study (which AA states is virtually impossible to do and is completely inaccurate for many reasons) and was also done by a government agency which you say embraces 12 Step treatment?
This was supposedly a long term study that states that AA gets about 45 % of their membership from coerced status, which means that these were not AA members at all, they were not working this simple program at all, they were court ordered. Sorry, Don, when you state that a survey was done by a government agency which embraces 12 Step Treatment, well that means nothing.
See there are many agencies today that say they embrace 12 Step Treatment, and what they mean for the most part by 12 Step Treatment is court ordered individuals who have no desire to stay sober, and they simply don't want it and ofcourse the Treatement centers for alcoholics and drug addicts, that have absolutely nothing to do with Alcoholics Anonymous.
My own home group does commitments at detoxes and treatment centers, and what that means is that we go and we share our own experience, strength and hope with those who are inpatient at these facilities. They are not AA members either unless they say that they are. What they are, are patients that are there for detox both voluntarily and court ordered and if they choose to they can make the decision to attend AA or not attend AA when discharged, or if they are court ordered, then they show up so they can stay out of prison. Again Don, AA meetings are for those who have a desire to stop drinking and they want it.
Here is why Don:
"The Preamble of Alcoholics Anonymous:
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
Yes you do believe it can be, and according to surveys that are done by those who don't have any idea what AA is or does, what an AA member is, no idea what the Traditions are, no idea that being court ordered to AA, isn't an AA member at all.
People here who are actual members of AA avocate AA on this forum with absolute praise because they are working this simple program in their own life and its working in their life. Yes Music is correct when he says its a perfect program, because it is. I personally have never seen this simple program of AA fail when anyone actually works it, applies it, and practices it in their own life. The operative words are "works, applies, and practices" it.
See I find it suspect when these surveys are including 45% of those they call AA members, who are really court ordered people who do not have a desire to stay sober and attend AA meetings, see what they really have is the desire to get their ass out of the fire and would attend Hitler meetings if it meant that they could stay out of prison. And these surveys are calling these court ordered people AA members who have tried the program of AA, just because they show up, get their court slips signed and bring these slips back for proof to their probation officer that they went to an AA meeting? Nothing could be further from the truth.
Don, I do not believe any survey or study that blatantly puts in print their complete and total ignorance regarding the difference between someone who is court ordered to attend AA meetings, and an AA member who is actually working this simple program. And if you were aware at all of the difference Don, you too would know and understand that those surveys are absolute BS.
What you gave is an example of a court ordered 15 yr old individual, who was harmed because he was court ordered to AA by a judge, instead of receiving the treatment that he needed for his depression and pot smoking.
The message that this child received when he got to AA isn't what harmed him or what took his life. What killed this child is a judge in the court room who was uneducated in clinical depression, uneducated in addictions, uneducated about AA, and who was playing God, Doctor, and therapist with this childs life. And this child paid the ultimate price for this judges arrogance, ignorance, and total lack of understanding about what AA is and what AA does. And this 15 yr old child paid for this judges complete ignorance, with his life.
That child was in major trouble long before he ever entered that court room. That child was forced to attend a 12 step meetings for alcoholics, when it ought to be so damn obvious to even you Don, that this child needed major medical help, and instead this child was blown off by a judge who ordered him to a 12 Step meeting for alcoholics. This judge was expecting an AA meeting or a 12 Step meeting and AA members to address and treat this child's mental health needs?
The decision and order made by that judge was neglectful and disgusting at the very least, and outright criminal at best. We here in the halls of AA can help anyone who has a desire to stop drinking. We here in the halls of AA are NOT and never have claimed to be doctors, therapists or psychiatrists!
Don how dare you expect AA or its members to treat this child's depression, pot smoking and mental health issues and for you to hold AA or its members responsible for harming this child is complete BS. Oh yeah, it certainly wasn't missed Don, that your subtle inference was to blame AA for this child killing himself and that is completely outrageous, yes even for you Don.
Don you are not what I would call a man of small intellect, so I will simply refer to you as the champion bait and switch man of all time, when it comes to nurturing a resentment against something that you obviously know nothing about.... A.A.
I personally have been an active member of AA for 15 yrs, and I have never ever seen this triennial survey and I have never been asked to make one out. I can share this with you, that I wouldn't make one out even if I had seen one, as most AA members in my opinion wouldn't.
I am aware of this fact though, that from your own mouth you have never ever been to an AA meeting, and are quite satisfied to read about AA meetings, AA members, and AA statistics, and base your opinion on that, rather than find out the truth by actually going to an AA meeting for yourself.
I have learned not to believe everything that I read, everything that someone tells me, and if its something of value to me, I go and find out for myself. In AA, we call that "doing the footwork"
I will listen to your opinons on AA Don, when and if you actually obtain facts. Until then, what I am seeing from you Don is posted surveys to back up what you "believe" that you know according to surveys that are completely inaccurate and for the most part totally misinformed and biased for their own agenda.
The analysis which you refer to as 'crap, absolute crap' is AA's own internal analysis of their own membership surveys. Fox obtained it by writing to AA. World Services, Box 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163, and enclosing $2, and 'with time and persistence managed to get a copy from the New York office.'
So which part of all this is 'insulting'? Do you or do you not believe that AA surveys their member? They did five triennial surveys between 1977 and 1989. You can get their review of those in Brochure P-48, if you simply want to prove to your own satisfaction that I am not a liar and that they actually do survey their members. I don't know, are you saying I'm making this up?
So which part of all this is 'insulting'? Do you or do you not believe that AA surveys their member? They did five triennial surveys between 1977 and 1989. You can get their review of those in Brochure P-48, if you simply want to prove to your own satisfaction that I am not a liar and that they actually do survey their members. I don't know, are you saying I'm making this up?
"The courts did the survey's along with others who were involved OUTSIDE of AA..."
Courts don't do surveys. It would be very useful if AA would do research to substantiate their own efficacy, but they don't.
Courts don't do surveys. It would be very useful if AA would do research to substantiate their own efficacy, but they don't.
The Ditman Study: These offenders were randomly assigned to a no-treatment control group, a group assigned to go to AA as a condition of probation, and a group assigned to clinic treatment (type not specified) as a condition of probation. Those assigned to AA needed to provide proof of attendance in the form of signed statements from AA meeting secretaries attesting to their presence. All of these individuals were followed for at least a full year after their convictions. The primary outcome measure the investigators used was the number of rearrests during the year following conviction. The results were that 69% of those assigned to Alcoholics Anonymous were rearrested; 68% of those assigned to clinic treatment were rearrested; and 56% of the no- treatment control group was rearrested.
Those who were court ordered as a condition of probabtion were NOT AA members. They were court assigned to come to AA. They had to attend as a condition of their probation, against their will. The primary outcome measure used by the investigators was rearrest during the year following conviction.
Those who were court ordered as a condition of probabtion were NOT AA members. They were court assigned to come to AA. They had to attend as a condition of their probation, against their will. The primary outcome measure used by the investigators was rearrest during the year following conviction.
The Brandsma Study: After screening, 260 clients were accepted for the study; 184 were court-coerced and were participating in the study as a condition of probation, and 76 were self-referred. The authors characterized the participants "as representative of the 'revolving door' alcoholic court cases in our cities" (p. 63).
Vaillant's study is of his own program (AA-based) which he was hoping would prove the efficacy of his own 12 - step approach. The long-term study was of over 4500 alcoholics. AA, by their own internal studies, gets about 45% of their membership from coerced status. It was done by a government agency which embraces 12-step treatment.
This was supposedly a long term study that states that AA gets about 45 % of their membership from coerced status, which means that these were not AA members at all, they were not working this simple program at all, they were court ordered. Sorry, Don, when you state that a survey was done by a government agency which embraces 12 Step Treatment, well that means nothing.
See there are many agencies today that say they embrace 12 Step Treatment, and what they mean for the most part by 12 Step Treatment is court ordered individuals who have no desire to stay sober, and they simply don't want it and ofcourse the Treatement centers for alcoholics and drug addicts, that have absolutely nothing to do with Alcoholics Anonymous.
My own home group does commitments at detoxes and treatment centers, and what that means is that we go and we share our own experience, strength and hope with those who are inpatient at these facilities. They are not AA members either unless they say that they are. What they are, are patients that are there for detox both voluntarily and court ordered and if they choose to they can make the decision to attend AA or not attend AA when discharged, or if they are court ordered, then they show up so they can stay out of prison. Again Don, AA meetings are for those who have a desire to stop drinking and they want it.
Here is why Don:
"The Preamble of Alcoholics Anonymous:
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
Because people advocate AA on this forum with absolute praise that is practically evangelical. It is the most commonly recommended approach to recovery. All other programs deal with the refugees from the 12-step movement. Music says it is a perfect program. It isn't. You said it is never harmful. I believe it can be.
People here who are actual members of AA avocate AA on this forum with absolute praise because they are working this simple program in their own life and its working in their life. Yes Music is correct when he says its a perfect program, because it is. I personally have never seen this simple program of AA fail when anyone actually works it, applies it, and practices it in their own life. The operative words are "works, applies, and practices" it.
See I find it suspect when these surveys are including 45% of those they call AA members, who are really court ordered people who do not have a desire to stay sober and attend AA meetings, see what they really have is the desire to get their ass out of the fire and would attend Hitler meetings if it meant that they could stay out of prison. And these surveys are calling these court ordered people AA members who have tried the program of AA, just because they show up, get their court slips signed and bring these slips back for proof to their probation officer that they went to an AA meeting? Nothing could be further from the truth.
You don't want to believe them. That's obvious. But every researcher who has reviewed the approach, including those who really, really want it to work, has come to the same conclusion:12-step treatment, including AA, can not be shown to be more effective than any other treatment or than no treatment at all.
I gave the example of the 15 year old who committed suicide to reply to your absolute assertion that AA is never harmful. It can be. Sending a depressed teenage pot smoker to AA is stupid and the message he received when he got there turned out to be very harmful.
The message that this child received when he got to AA isn't what harmed him or what took his life. What killed this child is a judge in the court room who was uneducated in clinical depression, uneducated in addictions, uneducated about AA, and who was playing God, Doctor, and therapist with this childs life. And this child paid the ultimate price for this judges arrogance, ignorance, and total lack of understanding about what AA is and what AA does. And this 15 yr old child paid for this judges complete ignorance, with his life.
That child was in major trouble long before he ever entered that court room. That child was forced to attend a 12 step meetings for alcoholics, when it ought to be so damn obvious to even you Don, that this child needed major medical help, and instead this child was blown off by a judge who ordered him to a 12 Step meeting for alcoholics. This judge was expecting an AA meeting or a 12 Step meeting and AA members to address and treat this child's mental health needs?
The decision and order made by that judge was neglectful and disgusting at the very least, and outright criminal at best. We here in the halls of AA can help anyone who has a desire to stop drinking. We here in the halls of AA are NOT and never have claimed to be doctors, therapists or psychiatrists!
Don how dare you expect AA or its members to treat this child's depression, pot smoking and mental health issues and for you to hold AA or its members responsible for harming this child is complete BS. Oh yeah, it certainly wasn't missed Don, that your subtle inference was to blame AA for this child killing himself and that is completely outrageous, yes even for you Don.
Don you are not what I would call a man of small intellect, so I will simply refer to you as the champion bait and switch man of all time, when it comes to nurturing a resentment against something that you obviously know nothing about.... A.A.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 727
alcohol in the house.
Hey again Don,you say,,if you want information about how effective AA is likely to be in general,I imagine that meetings are not the place you"re going to get the information...Ya know Don this reminds me of history.History in general.,of our world.Look at our past.With outside issues as an example.,if i may.All the "statistics and studies done at the time,,said quite planly...man cannot fly..in an airplane....O..percent on people ever being able to fly.in planes..lol...All beileved this.,to be true.All the science,done,proved beyond doubt,,,etc,,,said,,man cannot fly,your nuts..As we all know that was just their opinions,,based on what they knew,at the time.on the information that they had,had at the time..except,,2 brothers and a few followers who said,,heck with you,man can fly,in planes,and i will show you how.As history shows us,these good people did show the "experts"..Time and time again,,folks, have, proven that statistics and studies,,are in process.They are not the be all.and or the end..and may not even apply to some folks..Folks have broken them time and time again..Then the studies,statistcs...change...to whatever is the focus of the person.doing them.I mean statistics and studies do have their "place"..for sure.But,There is nothing more important to me,,,than experience....I came to AA as a broken down drunk.I couldnt have cared less ,and still dont,,what the studies show.All i know my friend is that this program works.its working because im living in the 12 steps.As many are..One Day At A Time...ok,,enough from me,,im going to listen or should i say,read..
Thanks again for letting me share...
Thanks again for letting me share...
Last edited by Cap3; 09-02-2004 at 02:01 PM. Reason: adding to
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
Originally Posted by Don S
Let's see...my postings are 'crap, absolute crap....insulting....'
The data I present is obviously made up or something; I'm engaging in 'outright deceit' and it's all misinformation. Any assertions I make are 'ridiculous' because I've never been to an AA meeting. My 'prejudice is apparent'.
The research must be biased, the researchers all had a pre-conceived outcome in mind (even those who support 12-step based programs; maybe they just secretly wanted their life's work to be proven wrong?).
Oh, yeah, and the Supreme Court justices are 'black-cloaked old farts'! Good'un, Music!
Talk about contempt prior to investigation!
Patsy, Music--you have attacked my veracity, my motives, and questioned my sources. That is a standard rhetorical device.
You can do this research as easily as I have. The information is out there if you care to look into it. Will you at least acknowledge, Patsy, that the AA surveys I've cited exist?
Just for the record again, Music, I have nothing whatever to do with RR, and Stanton Peele is not a 'program'--he's a respected addiction researcher. I'd give you an answer to your 'sober alcoholics' question, but I'm not sure you'd believe me.
Don S
The data I present is obviously made up or something; I'm engaging in 'outright deceit' and it's all misinformation. Any assertions I make are 'ridiculous' because I've never been to an AA meeting. My 'prejudice is apparent'.
The research must be biased, the researchers all had a pre-conceived outcome in mind (even those who support 12-step based programs; maybe they just secretly wanted their life's work to be proven wrong?).
Oh, yeah, and the Supreme Court justices are 'black-cloaked old farts'! Good'un, Music!
Talk about contempt prior to investigation!
Patsy, Music--you have attacked my veracity, my motives, and questioned my sources. That is a standard rhetorical device.
You can do this research as easily as I have. The information is out there if you care to look into it. Will you at least acknowledge, Patsy, that the AA surveys I've cited exist?
Just for the record again, Music, I have nothing whatever to do with RR, and Stanton Peele is not a 'program'--he's a respected addiction researcher. I'd give you an answer to your 'sober alcoholics' question, but I'm not sure you'd believe me.
Don S
You can do this research as easily as I have. The information is out there if you care to look into it. Will you at least acknowledge, Patsy, that the AA surveys I've cited exist?
Apparently the triennial survey does exist, I found it on the computer. Not one of the AA members that I spoke with heard of it or have seen it. Don what also exists is that AA says that its accuracy is virtually impossible for many many reasons.
I have been an active member of AA for over 15 yrs and I have never seen this survey, so I can see why AA states that its accuracy is impossible for many many reasons. Obviously if this survey was used by many AA'ers, I am sure that I would have seen it or at the very least heard of it. I attend my home group AA meeting, and I also attend many other AA meetings around the Boston area. If it was that well known, I am sure it would have come to my attention, since I am there and active in the halls of AA.
Don, I feel that your need to tear at AA says much more about who you are, then it does about what AA is.
I will not be coming back here to this thread, I believe that in some way Don that you must get off on this adventure of tearing down AA, even though you make statements continuously that ANY recovery program that works for anyone, then you support it. Obviously not. lol
Well Don, AA is an old tried and true program, and it will still be working long after you and I are gone. LOL
Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 14
Not trying to be antagonistic.
But I'm not sure about this "only requirement for membership" being a desire to quit drinking.
If I desire to quit drinking but don't want to call myself an alcoholic, can I go to anything but "beginners" or "newcomers" meetings? I am truly curious.
And how many of those can I go to, and speak at, without stating "My name is X and I'm an alcoholic.?"
If I desire to quit drinking but don't want to call myself an alcoholic, can I go to anything but "beginners" or "newcomers" meetings? I am truly curious.
And how many of those can I go to, and speak at, without stating "My name is X and I'm an alcoholic.?"
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
Originally Posted by Gava
But I'm not sure about this "only requirement for membership" being a desire to quit drinking.
If I desire to quit drinking but don't want to call myself an alcoholic, can I go to anything but "beginners" or "newcomers" meetings? I am truly curious.
And how many of those can I go to, and speak at, without stating "My name is X and I'm an alcoholic.?"
If I desire to quit drinking but don't want to call myself an alcoholic, can I go to anything but "beginners" or "newcomers" meetings? I am truly curious.
And how many of those can I go to, and speak at, without stating "My name is X and I'm an alcoholic.?"
If I desire to quit drinking but don't want to call myself an alcoholic, can I go to anything but "beginners" or "newcomers" meetings? I am truly curious.
And how many of those can I go to, and speak at, without stating "My name is X and I'm an alcoholic.?
Have no fear Gava, I don't attend closed AA meetings, and I have been sober, happy and free for over 15 yrs. The 12 Steps of recovery are free of charge to anyone who wants it and is willing to do the work. The best way to find out the answers to all your questions regarding AA, is to attend AA meetings. The answers that you seek are not a secret, AA is not a secret society
I wanted to answer your questions, so I came back to do that, and now I won't be back to this thread. LOL
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Patsy's comments and my previous quotes are in bold; my replies are in italics.
"The courts did the survey's along with others who were involved OUTSIDE of AA..."
Don:
Courts don't do surveys. It would be very useful if AA would do research to substantiate their own efficacy, but they don't.
Well Don, do they or don't they substantiate? First you say that AA's survey is proof. Then you state that it would be very useful if AA would do research. So which is it Don?
The study and analysis I cited were not intended for public release, but were made available to Fox and others when they persisted. It is useful as a rare glimpse into the organization.
Do you believe AA has a success rate higher than 5%? If so, why? If not, why not? Do you have any other success rates for AA that you have seen in official AA literature?
Well I can share this with you because I am a member of AA....they DON'T. Don, your leaving out the fact that AA itself states that the triennial surveys are not accurate for any kind of data, because there is no way to get any kind of accurate data IN AA meetings.
Evidently they found the data useful enough to analyze it and come to their own conclusions.
Don to make sure that your views "seem" accurate, you have used surveys that are completely against AA or just totally uneducated about AA. The so called AA members that were used, were not in fact AA members at all. By your own admission 45 % of them were coerced into AA by the courts
Quote:
The Ditman Study:
This study (where did I cite this one?) merely demonstrates that it is possible that assignment to AA led to a higher rearrest rate than assignment of similar people to other treatment programs. It is a useful statistical comparison.
Assigned to AA: 69% rearrested.
Assigned to clinic: 68% rearrested.
Assigned to no treatment: 56% rearrested.
So, we can conclude that AA is not effective for people who don't want to be there. (I realize that merits a DUH!)
We here in the halls of AA are not lawyers, we are not investigators, we do not KEEP anyone sober, nevermind keeping anyone from being rearrested. LOL
No, and you're not counselors or addiction experts, either.
Quote:
The Brandsma Study: After screening, 260 clients were accepted for the study; 184 were court-coerced and were participating in the study as a condition of probation, and 76 were self-referred.
Did I cite this study?.
Quote from Don:
Vaillant's study is of his own program (AA-based) which he was hoping would prove the efficacy of his own 12 - step approach. The long-term study was of over 4500 alcoholics. AA, by their own internal studies, gets about 45% of their membership from coerced status. It was done by a government agency which embraces 12-step treatment.
Patsy:
Don, according to Vaillant's study that you have posted, he states that AA by their own study, and I am assuming that you mean the triennial surveys that you speak of, as being their study (which AA states is virtually impossible to do and is completely inaccurate for many reasons) and was also done by a government agency which you say embraces 12 Step treatment?
This was supposedly a long term study that states that AA gets about 45 % of their membership from coerced status,
No, you read my sentence wrong. AA's analysts state that.It was a study of individuals that were in a hospital program for alcohol dependence. Their statistic that 45% of their membership is 'coerced' is cited by Fox.
Quote from Don:
Because people advocate AA on this forum with absolute praise that is practically evangelical. It is the most commonly recommended approach to recovery. All other programs deal with the refugees from the 12-step movement. Music says it is a perfect program. It isn't. You said it is never harmful. I believe it can be.
Patsy:
Yes you do believe it can be, and according to surveys that are done by those who don't have any idea what AA is or does, what an AA member is, no idea what the Traditions are, no idea that being court ordered to AA, isn't an AA member at all.
As I"ve said before, much of the research was done by people (like Vaillant) who really, really wanted 12-step treatment to be proven effective. Vince Fox, by the way, came from AA. These surveys have been done by leading addiction researchers. Your brusque dismissal is based on your own preconceptions….contempt prior to investigation, again?
Yes Music is correct when he says its a perfect program, because it is. I personally have never seen this simple program of AA fail when anyone actually works it, applies it, and practices it in their own life. The operative words are "works, applies, and practices" it.
By those criteria, any program will never fail. Duh.
See I find it suspect when these surveys are including 45% of those they call AA members, who are really court ordered people who do not have a desire to stay sober and attend AA meetings
Ok, toss those 45% out of AA's own statistics. The retention rate has now gone up to 9%. Whee!
Quote from Don:
I gave the example of the 15 year old who committed suicide to reply to your absolute assertion that AA is never harmful. It can be. Sending a depressed teenage pot smoker to AA is stupid and the message he received when he got there turned out to be very harmful.
Patsy:
What you gave is an example of a court ordered 15 yr old …. What killed this child is a judge … And this 15 yr old child paid for this judges complete ignorance, with his life…… it ought to be so damn obvious to even you Don, that this child needed major medical help
And perfectly obvious to any number of people who were attending those meetings with him. It's a peer-based system, right?
Where did you get the notion that he was sent to AA by a judge? I said he was forced to go to AA, and provided the link. You can read exactly what I read: http://www.peele.net/faq/aasuicide.html
Don how dare you expect AA or its members to treat this child's depression, pot smoking and mental health issues and for you to hold AA or its members responsible for harming this child is complete BS. Oh yeah, it certainly wasn't missed Don, that your subtle inference was to blame AA for this child killing himself and that is completely outrageous, yes even for you Don.
Let's see…is there a leader at these meetings? Does anyone look out at the membership present, and see a forlorn 15 year old, and ask him what he's there for, and possibly tell him his presence is inappropriate? Contact the school? Ask to speak to his parents? Again: the point was that AA can be harmful, and it is not for everybody. I'm sure other depressed teens have ended up in AA meetings, to their detriment.
Don you are not what I would call a man of small intellect, so I will simply refer to you as the champion bait and switch man of all time, when it comes to nurturing a resentment against something that you obviously know nothing about.... A.A.
What it boils down to, patsy, is that you will accept no study that is of 12-step treatment, only studies of actual voluntary AA members. You won't accept Hester and Miller's extensive review. You won't accept Vaillant's studies. You won't believe anything Stanton Peele writes. You don't even accept the data that AA itself compiled -- but which it chose not to release, acknowledging it only grudgingly after it became public.
You said AA has never harmed anyone. Yet it is the most common form of coerced treatment, which is often harmful and coerced 12-step treatment has been shown to be ineffective. Your absolute statement that AA is never harmful is absurd. And your personal attacks simply undermine your argument.
Don S
"The courts did the survey's along with others who were involved OUTSIDE of AA..."
Don:
Courts don't do surveys. It would be very useful if AA would do research to substantiate their own efficacy, but they don't.
Well Don, do they or don't they substantiate? First you say that AA's survey is proof. Then you state that it would be very useful if AA would do research. So which is it Don?
The study and analysis I cited were not intended for public release, but were made available to Fox and others when they persisted. It is useful as a rare glimpse into the organization.
Do you believe AA has a success rate higher than 5%? If so, why? If not, why not? Do you have any other success rates for AA that you have seen in official AA literature?
Well I can share this with you because I am a member of AA....they DON'T. Don, your leaving out the fact that AA itself states that the triennial surveys are not accurate for any kind of data, because there is no way to get any kind of accurate data IN AA meetings.
Evidently they found the data useful enough to analyze it and come to their own conclusions.
Don to make sure that your views "seem" accurate, you have used surveys that are completely against AA or just totally uneducated about AA. The so called AA members that were used, were not in fact AA members at all. By your own admission 45 % of them were coerced into AA by the courts
Quote:
The Ditman Study:
This study (where did I cite this one?) merely demonstrates that it is possible that assignment to AA led to a higher rearrest rate than assignment of similar people to other treatment programs. It is a useful statistical comparison.
Assigned to AA: 69% rearrested.
Assigned to clinic: 68% rearrested.
Assigned to no treatment: 56% rearrested.
So, we can conclude that AA is not effective for people who don't want to be there. (I realize that merits a DUH!)
We here in the halls of AA are not lawyers, we are not investigators, we do not KEEP anyone sober, nevermind keeping anyone from being rearrested. LOL
No, and you're not counselors or addiction experts, either.
Quote:
The Brandsma Study: After screening, 260 clients were accepted for the study; 184 were court-coerced and were participating in the study as a condition of probation, and 76 were self-referred.
Did I cite this study?.
Quote from Don:
Vaillant's study is of his own program (AA-based) which he was hoping would prove the efficacy of his own 12 - step approach. The long-term study was of over 4500 alcoholics. AA, by their own internal studies, gets about 45% of their membership from coerced status. It was done by a government agency which embraces 12-step treatment.
Patsy:
Don, according to Vaillant's study that you have posted, he states that AA by their own study, and I am assuming that you mean the triennial surveys that you speak of, as being their study (which AA states is virtually impossible to do and is completely inaccurate for many reasons) and was also done by a government agency which you say embraces 12 Step treatment?
This was supposedly a long term study that states that AA gets about 45 % of their membership from coerced status,
No, you read my sentence wrong. AA's analysts state that.It was a study of individuals that were in a hospital program for alcohol dependence. Their statistic that 45% of their membership is 'coerced' is cited by Fox.
Quote from Don:
Because people advocate AA on this forum with absolute praise that is practically evangelical. It is the most commonly recommended approach to recovery. All other programs deal with the refugees from the 12-step movement. Music says it is a perfect program. It isn't. You said it is never harmful. I believe it can be.
Patsy:
Yes you do believe it can be, and according to surveys that are done by those who don't have any idea what AA is or does, what an AA member is, no idea what the Traditions are, no idea that being court ordered to AA, isn't an AA member at all.
As I"ve said before, much of the research was done by people (like Vaillant) who really, really wanted 12-step treatment to be proven effective. Vince Fox, by the way, came from AA. These surveys have been done by leading addiction researchers. Your brusque dismissal is based on your own preconceptions….contempt prior to investigation, again?
Yes Music is correct when he says its a perfect program, because it is. I personally have never seen this simple program of AA fail when anyone actually works it, applies it, and practices it in their own life. The operative words are "works, applies, and practices" it.
By those criteria, any program will never fail. Duh.
See I find it suspect when these surveys are including 45% of those they call AA members, who are really court ordered people who do not have a desire to stay sober and attend AA meetings
Ok, toss those 45% out of AA's own statistics. The retention rate has now gone up to 9%. Whee!
Quote from Don:
I gave the example of the 15 year old who committed suicide to reply to your absolute assertion that AA is never harmful. It can be. Sending a depressed teenage pot smoker to AA is stupid and the message he received when he got there turned out to be very harmful.
Patsy:
What you gave is an example of a court ordered 15 yr old …. What killed this child is a judge … And this 15 yr old child paid for this judges complete ignorance, with his life…… it ought to be so damn obvious to even you Don, that this child needed major medical help
And perfectly obvious to any number of people who were attending those meetings with him. It's a peer-based system, right?
Where did you get the notion that he was sent to AA by a judge? I said he was forced to go to AA, and provided the link. You can read exactly what I read: http://www.peele.net/faq/aasuicide.html
Don how dare you expect AA or its members to treat this child's depression, pot smoking and mental health issues and for you to hold AA or its members responsible for harming this child is complete BS. Oh yeah, it certainly wasn't missed Don, that your subtle inference was to blame AA for this child killing himself and that is completely outrageous, yes even for you Don.
Let's see…is there a leader at these meetings? Does anyone look out at the membership present, and see a forlorn 15 year old, and ask him what he's there for, and possibly tell him his presence is inappropriate? Contact the school? Ask to speak to his parents? Again: the point was that AA can be harmful, and it is not for everybody. I'm sure other depressed teens have ended up in AA meetings, to their detriment.
Don you are not what I would call a man of small intellect, so I will simply refer to you as the champion bait and switch man of all time, when it comes to nurturing a resentment against something that you obviously know nothing about.... A.A.
What it boils down to, patsy, is that you will accept no study that is of 12-step treatment, only studies of actual voluntary AA members. You won't accept Hester and Miller's extensive review. You won't accept Vaillant's studies. You won't believe anything Stanton Peele writes. You don't even accept the data that AA itself compiled -- but which it chose not to release, acknowledging it only grudgingly after it became public.
You said AA has never harmed anyone. Yet it is the most common form of coerced treatment, which is often harmful and coerced 12-step treatment has been shown to be ineffective. Your absolute statement that AA is never harmful is absurd. And your personal attacks simply undermine your argument.
Don S
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