Patsyd1

Hi Don, and this is a long one. LOL

AA hasn't hurt or harmed anyone at all ever. Some people's opinions of what they "think" AA is about has though. Religion is not and never has been an important part of AA or in my own life in or out of AA, it wasn't then and it isn't now either. AA is for people for whom spirituality and/or religion is or IS NOT an important part of their lives, thats their own choice. Spirituality in AA has nothing to do with religion at all. Its ones own choice in AA of what they themselves choose to believe.

There are many Don who believe that Nature is their spirituality. Sitting in a flower garden, appreciating the sky, the moon, trees, a lake, and so many other things that bring a sense of belonging to anyone who is seeking a power greater then themselves. Sitting and meditating is a great form of spirituality. I have heard many talk of religion and AA in the same breath. Nothing could be more incorrect.

Erin mentioned that the Supreme Court has deemed AA a religious program. That is an absolutely incorrect conclusion that they came to and it doesn't matter whether these men are dressed in long black robes and pronoucing what think that they know. The conclusion that the Supreme Court came to is absolutely erroneous and incorrect regarding AA being a religious program. I believe that to some if you mention the word God, or spirituality then they automatically think of religion, church, and the Bible.

I have been a member of Alcoholics Anonymous for over 15 yrs, sober, and working this simple program. Some complicate the hell out of every step, every concept, and analyzing every phrase, every word, and what some THINK goes on there, that is not new at all in the halls of AA. It took me some time to understand that AA is a simple program that I insisted on complicating all the way, with my magnifying mind. AA is a simple program of change, acceptance, choices and growth.

Some come through the doors of AA and they leave because they hear someone share something that taps into their own resentments, their own bias, their own judgemental attitude, there own WAY OF THINKING. When I made the decision to stay in AA, it wasn't because of anyone's religion, it wasn't because of anyone telling me what to think, what to believe in, what to do, what not to do, who to be, or how and what to feel. I stayed because I saw with my own two eyes those who truely worked this simple program in their own life were sober, they were happy, and they were free. The message is a simple one of hope.

AA don't care where you come from, how you got here, what you have done or not done, or what you believe or do not believe. WE are here to help anyone who has a desire to stop drinking one day at a time.

It is so sad to hear from those who attended a few AA meetings, and they "think" that they KNOW what AA is all about. AA is not about any kind of religion, its not about having to believe or not believe in anything. In my AA home group which is large, we have agnostics, catholics, protestants, hebrews, buddists, muslims, atheists, and we have a witch. And no, its not me. LOL

Now how do we all get along? Very well thank you Because when we begin to actually work and apply the 12 Steps in our own lives, we slowly learn acceptance of self, and others for being exactly who we are, and who they really are. We mind our own business when it comes to who is or who isn't religious, its simply not what we do here in the halls of AA. Now I realize that there are those who see, hear and watch at an AA meeting and they come to their own opinions based on their own "thinking" of what AA is, who AA members are, what they believe, what they do, and what they don't do, hence the suggestion to keep an open mind.

Everyone in the halls of AA is at a different level of growth and sobriety. Sorry Don, but the God of their own understanding means just that, their own. AA members choose their own conception of God or Higher Power. For some its the ocean, for others its nature and still for others its a group of drunks, the Universe, and for some its religious, their own religion. Doesn't matter to me what they choose, and it doesn't matter to them what my choice is, WHEN we are working this simple program, and it certainly doesn't matter to AA. I have no idea what others concept of God is, its simply none of my business. I have my own concept of what God is. The God of my understanding has no description at all. What matters is that we help one another to stay sober, and we learn to change the person that we brought through the doors of AA.

I was one of the most closed minded people who probably ever walked through the doors of AA. I listened to what AA members shared, but I never ever heard them. I was too busy isolated and alone in my own head making determinations about what I "knew" they REALLY MEANT. Most drunks that I know do. LOL It took me some time coming to AA in order to put aside what I thought I knew, because I KNEW EVERYTHING, and no one and nothing could convince me that I didn't KNOW EVERYTHING. I knew everything but how to not pick up that first drink and get drunk. I learned in time, to listen with an open mind and open heart to what AA was genuinely about, and what AA members were REALLY sharing.

Time takes Time Don, and to say that AA has harmed some or anyone is simply and completely an untruth. What harms some and or anyone coming through the doors of AA is the inability to NOT be living in their own head isolated and nuturing an iron will that has walls built of titanum, and a refusal to believe that they could ever be incorrect about anything, or anyone when it comes to their own interpretation and definition of what they "think" they KNOW. Yup, untreated drunks are like that...... yes they are.

I don't know where you got the idea or the notion that AA says it only has a 5 % recovery rate, since AA has no records, and doesn't keep any such information anywhere. I would like to ask you where you read, or heard that information, because its not printed anywhere that AA has said that. In our AA home group that I am a member of, about 75 % of us are long time sober members, and there are millions of recovering alcoholics in AA world wide.

I don't know about Smart, or any of the other programs, but I do know this, that they don't have millions of members world wide. And if the psychiatric or medical field was able to help drunks stay sober on any kind of a regular basis, they sure wouldn't be telling their clients to go to AA meetings first to get sober, and THEN they will be able to help them with their other issues. Is AA the only program that works? No, but it is the one that has helped me and millions of others to stay sober, happy and free, one day at a time.
For myself, hitting bottom was directly connected to my desperation. I simply wasn't "willing" to even consider any other way but MY WAY, until I had reached a place inside of myself that became "willing".... as only the dying can be.

Don, not having contempt for AA is one thing, but having the correct information when forming and giving opinions about what AA is, what it does and doesn't do, is quite another.

I am not speaking for AA as a whole, its simply my opinion formed from actually being IN AA, and working this simple beautiful program.


Patsy

Patsyd1

Don, there is most certainly a typical drunk attitude. There is most certainly denial that is part and parcel of alcoholism. There is most certainly a syndrome that has been called "dry drunk" for a valid reason.

Yes Music is one of those old timers who doesn't pull any punches, and when I was a newcomer, full of denial, a typical drunk attitude, and a dry raging alcoholic, well I depended on those who were just like Music. Those who loved me enough to tell me the truth, without sugar coating it, without fear of upsetting my ego, without any other reason then they loved me enough to help to save my life, whether or not my feelings got hurt.

The truth is that most of what anyone, anywhere, at anytime said to me back then....... hurt my feelings or pissed me off. Didn't matter much what anyone thought or did, I always took it absolutely personal.


When I came to AA, I wasn't able to distinguish between the false, and the true. I had warped my mind into believing that I KNEW and that was the end of story.... period.

Yes, I had a sponsor who shared with me the honest truth, whether I liked it or not, whether I got upset or not, and I depended on her to do just that.

Nope, Music isn't one of those who is more concerned about hurting someones feelings, then sharing the truth about an illness that kills. And yes we can always count on Music for sure.... Thank God

Jon

That statement is simply not true, though I wish it was. Unfortunately, to describe why I belive it to be untrue would require opening a "family-size" can of worms that I'm just not willing to do right now.

I have always been a little shocked though at what happens when someone says, basically, "I don't want what you have." If this were ANY other type of situation-I don't want your: fries, car, religion, money, education, clothes, political affiliation-would you keep on insisting and insisting and pushing and pushing?

Come on thumpers! Our own text tells us that this is NOT how we approach the newcomer. But I guess if you're around a little while it's more of a "Do as I say, Not as I Do", huh?

Peter is absolutely correct when he says that when you come on to an Alcoholism Board looking for advice/suggestions you are going to hear it from ones experience. As it should be. But I have to tell you that after sharing your experience, anything else in blatant and shameful promotion. You cant tell someone else to read and follow the book and then do whatever the hell you feel like doing, friends. Thats the sound of someone sponsoring themselves. Just like an Athiest!

from the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous:

Quote:

If he is sincerely interested and wants to see you again, ask him to read this book in the interval. After doing that, he must decide for himself whether he wants to go on. He should not be pushed or prodded by you, his wife, or his friends. If he is to find God, the desire must come from within.

Quote:

If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that.

Whoa!! Did you get that part??? Not only are we to not argue with the newcomers beliefs, we are directed to ENCOURAGE them to follow their own conscience. It's worth repeating:

So either I have a different book, or I got sober in a different AA, because the people doing the AA pushing are doing the exact opposite of what our program teaches.

Erin, this thread was about you and your struggles...not about people defending their opinions. The minute we stop sharing our actual experience, thats all we have left..opinion.

If you're still around Erin, and need to talk, you are welcome here anytime.

wiebe

Patsy, these last 2 posts strike me as well thought out and balanced. I think the vast majority of AA people have a genuine desire to help others recover, even if there approach is different from the tried and proven mainsteam AA. AA isn't for everyone and I think most AA people accept that. I think you may agree that the big book says AA should work by the power of attraction, NOT promotion, and certainly not by ramming it down peoples throats sideways.

Hi erin. I think your post about the difficulty of not drinking when there's alcohol in the house is a valid question to throw into a group who has to deal with that sort of things on a daily basis. I see this sort of thing discussed on the Smart forums regularly without heated debates. Why should there be? These forums are about people sharing what works for THEM.

Hope you stick around erin, there ARE lots of helpful people here who have experience with what you're dealing with. You'll have to learn to ignore a few members (I did), but the shared experiences here are worth it.

Take care,
Wiebe

Patsyd1

Read it again Jon, I am not pushing anything on anyone. There are misconceptions about AA all over this board from those who simply don't want it, and have many thoughts posted incorrectly as to what they "think" AA is. Thats fine, I am not here to TELL anyone that they have to have AA or any other program for that matter.

AA hasn't hurt anyone Jon, what has hurt some is a biased opinion based on what some THINK that AA is.

To each their own Jon, and that includes AA correct Jon? Its amazes me to see what some post about AA, and then make statements about pushing AA down anyones throat.

Let me clarify it for you Jon. I am not interested in how anyone gets and stays sober, that is their own choice, if it works for them, it works.

I am interested though in what the difference is between you pushing any and every program besides AA, and making derogatory statements about AA and encouraging others to not bother with AA? Whats up with that Jon?

My reply Jon was to Don S. who is not only not a member of AA, but has never attended an AA meeting. I wouldn't say that he is a newcomer to AA, and I certainly wouldn't be telling Don S how to get sober or what program to choose either. We all have choices Jon.

Patsyd1

That is true Wiebe, could I ask you to please point out where I have rammed AA down anyones throat sideways? I am not asking in a confrontational way, I am simply asking if you could please point out to me, where I have done that.

Thanks

Patsy

Jon

Let me see if I can get this straight...I get sober in AA, I volunteeered for years on Skid Row, I support H&I... I learn our book and I quote our book and you consider that making derogatory statements?

OK, now that that's settled.... :banghead:

The majority of alcoholics who get sober will never see the inside of an AA meeting. I need to realize, and accept, that although I am a part of something big, compared to alcoholism it is very, very small. The more weapons the better. Anything and everything that can be used to help those who suffer I will support. That includes church, therapy, medication, Alternatives to 12 Step, SMART, LifeRing, Temple and more. And anyone so close minded that all they can muster is a "well, if it works for you"....with sarcsam dripping down their shirt is about as worthless as abag of rocks.

Does AA hurt anyone? As an organization, no. It's individuals that do with mis-information, withdrawal of support, and judgement of others and their beliefs.

(8 "Jons" in one short post Patsy? Something you need to write about?)

Patsyd1

Well that is something that we can absolutely agree on Jon. However, I have had my own experience with being silenced about my experience in AA by you personally Jon. Jon, I would suggest that you go and read what I shared again. See I am sharing my own experience, strength and hope.

I am curious Jon, if its individuals who have mis-information regarding AA, then why not try to correct it, rather than silence those who belong to AA, and who are working it.

Jon, there is nothing that I need to write about regarding you or this site. I was addressing you personally, that is your name correct Jon? It does seem to me that there are some who have an agenda here that states to try ALL recovery programs, but watch out for that AA it can be harmful.

Can any of the other programs be harmful Jon? Or is it the mis-information from individuals there too? Its only my opinion Jon, its not the programs themselves that is the problem, its what we do with them that counts.

Service in AA Jon is just that, service. We do service so that we ourselves can stay sober, and help another alcoholic to achieve sobriety one day at a time. Service is not so that we can go around saying .......Hey, look at me and what I have done, aren't I great.

Take care Jon, we have been here before, and it seems to always end with the same old thing.

I am a grateful member of AA and I am also grateful to be sober today, and to have AA as a working part of my life. Thats as simple as it gets for this drunk today.

To Each Their Own,

Patsy

Aimee2

Hi Erin,

I'm new to this forum, too. I'm came here looking for support to remain abstinent for a period of time (3 months) after which time I'll re-evaluate whether or not I can drink socially, or whether alcohol should remain off limits for me.

Congratulations on 6 months of sobriety! No matter what anyone on this forum or anyone else says to you, you are to be commended, and you certainly must be doing something right!

As a newcomer here with some degree of objectivity, I have to say that I've been surprised at some of the responses on this thread. I would not be surprised at all if you moved onto another online support group(actually, I checked out Smart Recovery and LifeLine and I like them quite a bit) because if I were in your shoes, I would be feeling very defensive and frustrated right now. Your initial query about how to handle alcohol in the home turned into some kind of warzone.I have to say in all honesty...I had, prior to reading this board, considered going to some open AA meetings to see if it would be helpful in meeting my goals, but now I definitely know this is not an option for me. I'm going to seek out Moderation Management or some local church-based recovery groups, or something that is far less legalistic and it's "my way or the highway" in tone. (No offense intended for those AA members for whom AA has been a life-saver--it's just clearly not for me.)

My approach to dealing with life is spritual, specifically Christian, but everyone is at a different place with regard to spirituality. I trust that God is FAR more patient with you and FAR more loving and understanding of your atheistic beliefs, and FAR more willing to work with you where you're at spiritually and emotionally than many of us mortals who claim to speak for Him. So hang in there! And don't you dare pick up a drink because of something ignorant someone may have said or written to you!

By the way Don, I like your style.

Aimee

Dan

I'm still a newcomer to recovery. I have a large dose of gratitude in my heart for the men and women of the Lasalle Group of AA, in my city. On May 13, 2003, I decided I needed help. I was welcomed with open arms, and offered ideas and alternatives to active addiction. But most importantly, I was allowed to progress at my own rate. Never, was I told that I didn't know sh!t from shinola. Never, was it even remotely suggested that my beliefs were not compatible with the program. And when it was clear that I wasn't done with my torments, never was I told some of the things I have read in this thread. I needed to share this.
I am thankful for the opportunity to do so.

Peter

Patsy your post was obviously well thought out and I know you speak from your heart but your sentence above has really got me thinking.

By "Some people's opinion" I assume you could very well mean members of AA no.........?

I have often heard in my home Twelve Step group that "The Steps" prevent me from committing suicide and "The Traditions" prevent me from commiting homicide.

(Non Twelve steppers here may not understand about Step/Traditions...... but anyway......)

While the concept of AA is in my opinion pure in it's simplicity I am afraid that there are often well intentioned enthusiasts in AA that themselves lack proper understanding of the programme or may even by highly opinionated who can impart wrong information to newcomers and visitors (not talking about you patsy)

I cringe in my seat when I hear members telling newcomers that they MUST get a sponsor,that they MUST work The Steps,that they MUST attend ninety meetings in ninety days, that you MUST have a Higher Power and if you are not doing these things then YOU ARE NOT WORKING THE PROGRAMME !

Newcomers don't need to hear this.Newcomers sometimes just need to know where the coffee is and how to get through the next hour without spilling it down the front of their shirt.Newcomers are confused and frightened ,they do not need to hear ultimatums and they can easily be turned away by over zealous members in their eagerness to spread the message of recovery and to offer their services as sponsors.These people could die because they did not recieve the help that AA could have given them.

As I have said The concept of AA and the principles it professes in the Big Book and the 12x12 is pure and simple.It is the members who sometimes cloud the message and give AA a bad rap because visitors and newcomers may not know how to separate the tree from the forest.

Without it's members there would be no AA.So then how accurate can the statement be that "AA never hurt anyone."

Perhaps I could best understand this question by asking myself another question;

"Did RELIGION hurt me ?"

Christians embrace their faith as being completely pure and good and while it could probably very well be so ,fundamentalists in their dogmatic confusion have been imparting harmful information on me about sin and hell and damnation from I was a child.

"Dont tell a lie because God will punish you" (No mommy I did'nt eat the cookies.Gee I thought God was loving and forgiving)

"Dont play with it in the shower or you will go to hell." (But I thought you said God made me and loved me?)

You damn straight religion hurt me.Dont tell a six year old child he is wicked and going to hell because he stole some cookies.

It is not hard to understand why visitors who come to AA and hear a member speak passionately about God being the ultimate source of his recovery may come away feeling that God is a requirement of AA.

The belief that AA is religious has long been a misconception and I am sad to say that this misnomer will be around for a long time especially if even the Supreme Court of the United States can have it wrong.

"Contempt prior to investigation" is one rule that perpetuates the misconception about AA.Ignorance to the difference between Spirituality and Religion is another

I too can harm others by expounding my beliefs on them.

All I know is that AA with all it's controversy saved my life and I will tell you my story if you ask me to share it.AA has taught me the importance of acceptance and paramount amongst this is acceptance of others and what they choose to believe......so hey, if you choose to believe that AA is religious and cannot help you...... I am cool with that too.....

This is a characteristic of all the good oldtimers in AA that understand the true meaning of AA and speak their message of recovery in "no uncertain terms...."

AA' ers take time to study and understand Traditions.I found it a useful guide to strenghtening my own recovery and curbing my enthusiasm it also made me more wary if what I was about to say when I was called upon to share.

Not everyone will be christians and not everyone will join AA but we all have a story to tell.I will listen to what you have to say but do not ask me to agree with you.

Music

I get your point Jon. And yours too Peter. I don't represent AA when I come here. AA does not hurt people. People hurt people. And, most people aren't hurt unless they're looking to be hurt. After all, words are just words.
If a person wants to come here and talk about getting sober, I have all the compassion and empathy I can muster up to do what I can to carry the message as I know the message to be for me. On the other hand, if a person wants to come here and say stupid things like "the Supreme Court ruled that AA was a religious program" the Big Book is set aside and the gloves come off. That's crap and both of you know it. To make a statement like AA is only 5% successful?? I say it's 100% successful for those people who work the AA program and don't drink. So, that's where I stand. If either of you were to sit in a meeting I was attending and start spouting off dribble like some of the crap I see printed here misquoting the Big Book and mis-representing AA, I'd stop you and ask you to explain yourself.

To come here with some degree of humility is one thing. To jump in here with both feet and start demanding that people say or don't say what I think I don't want to hear isn't going to happen without some kind of response from me. You two can handle it any way you care to.

Don S

Guns don't kill people, people kill people...right?
Stupid things? They DID rule that compulsory attendance at AA was a violation of rights because they DID consider that met the criteria of being a religious organization. Too bad you weren't there to set them straight (you'd probably have had a few choice things to say about some of their other rulings, too...).

ANY program is 100% successful for people who work that program and don't drink! Duh.
Don S

Dan

And conversely Music, were you ever to attend a meeting I was sitting in and I heard you saying some of the things you're so fond of plastering over all of our newbie asses, I think I'd say to myself...
Wow... Wrong place at the wrong time I guess...
Oh sorry, wrong thread. But you get my newbie drift eh?

2dayzmuse

Aimee2, don't let this verbal debate determine whether or not you will attend an AA meeting. This is a message board and is conducted differently, then a face to face AA meeting would be. I would hate to think that something you had considered, has now been eliminated from your options of recovery. Don't totally rule out AA as of yet. I hope you will reconsider. It may be something you find helpful, useful, uplifting and supportive.

Talia

dotcom

my leftist view: i was in a 12 step program and attended meetings for quite some time. i began to feel after a long period of time that if i didnt work the steps i would not succeed and that after every 24 hr period there would be this lightning bolt moment where id face "to use or not to use". these things i read in literature and was told by people in so many words.

i went through a transition period between leaving 12 step and beginning therapy and doing my own thing to stay clean. i felt like the wool had been pulled over my eyes because in fact, i was able to go days without thinking of using. this was at around 15 months. i would pass the 24 hr lightning moment of death, jails, and institutions without a worry or a care.

hence my belief that i was brainwashed. i cant explain it really, when the wool came off my eyes it was like a whole new life in front of me. many of the members of 12 i knew said bon voyage and were very kind about my going. others prophecied doom and destruction and gave me the moment of silence BS which i found very offensive.

i still associate and hang out with the kinder 12 step people. they have utilized the NA thing and gotten something out of it without being brainwashed. some people like myself however are suceptible to ultimatums and trickery. shame on those that tipped their hats and wrote me off. but, shame on ME for letting their opinions have any room in my thoughts.

my recovery from drugs and alco is not the number one thing in my life. water and food are number one. my family is next. God is in there somewhere. work is important to me. friends and family are in there too. having hobbies and finding enjoyment in life. there was a time when none of this was possible without some form of sub abuse recovery, but its been almost 2 years and i find myself just dealing with my stuff as it comes and using whatever resource whenever i feel i need it.

forgetting about the things that make you happy and turning to 24 hr recovery (unless you really need it) can be detrimental to say the least. and yeah ive been there so i know. too much of a good thing is no good.

hang in there erin. come say hi! perhaps on another thread though. theres lots of non 12 step people here, and theres a lot of 12 step people who will not thump your poor newbie self into the ground. you are new, and easily manipulated. stand strong, find what works for you, and dont let anyone hook you into something you dont feel comfortable with.

Don S

Say, erin, what do you think of your thread now? Glad to see moot started a new one about your original question!

Thank you, patsy, for your thoughtful response. I've cut and saved it, as I think it is a very useful perspective that I'll be able to share with others at some point.

Replying to two points: the 5% success rate, and your comment that AA hasn't hurt or harmed anyone at all ever.

The information about AA's success rate comes from its own membership surveys. In particular, from the rather famous 'Comments on AA's Triennial Surveys' document cited by Charles Bufe in Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure (AA's ID # 5M/12-90/TC), which was produced for internal purposes. It is also summarized in Vince Fox's Addiction, Change, and Choice (1993). This document is not listed in AA's 'Conference Approved Literature' but Fox was able to obtain a copy from AA.

AA's own analysis was that 50% of all those who try AA leave within 90 days, which they describe as cause for 'concern'. Their own data shows that is actually optimistic. In the 12-year period shown, 19% remain after 30 days, 10% remain after 90 days, and 5% remain after a year.
The retention rate of AA is 5% after one year.

Incidentally, 60% of those surveyed were getting outside professional help. This means that any success (or failure) rate, however it is defined, can't be attributed entirely to AA.

So do we define the success rate as the retention rate? You'd have to tell me if you believe that success in AA is measured by whether people are still attending meetings. But other studies indicate a very low success rate for AA and/or 12-step programs. One problem, as I see it, is differentiating between what Fox calls Communal AA and Institutional (commercial) AA. The former can only be studied by means of internal documents, which aren't generally available from AA.

The latter can be studied. One way to measure the success of AA would be by comparing 12-step based treatment with other treatments, especially given that a 1997 study found that 93% of American drug and alcohol treatment programs follow the 12-step model. So it would be pretty easy to tell, at least, whether 12-step programs work.

An extensive study (Hester and Miller, Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches) shows that peer-based 12-step alcohol treatment programs do NOT have a higher success rate than no treatment at all. Facilitated 12-step treatment (trained facilitators guiding subjects through the twelve-step process) were marginally better. "The two tests of AA found it inferior to other treatments or even no treatment but were not sufficient to rank AA reliably."

Brief, non-confrontational interventions and motivational interviewing were found most effective.

If you define success as reduced drinking, absence of alcohol dependence, or a reduction in problem drinking, then you see different results. Success in AA is presumed to be total abstinence. But followup to many treatment programs finds people have done some drinking, or drink moderately (defined by the researcher, not the patient!). They would be considered failures--but the behavior has changed. So if one wants to improve the statistical success rates of 12-step treatment, just broaden 'success' to include moderation!

Psychiatrist George Vaillant, an advocate of the standard hospital and AA treatment program, reviewing his own studies of his own program (in his book The Natural History of Alcoholism):
"It seemed perfectly clear that . . . by inexorably moving patients from dependence upon the general hospital into the treatment system of AA, I was working for the most exciting alcohol program in the world. But then came the rub. Fueled by our enthusiasm, I and the director . . . tried to prove our efficacy. Our clinic followed up our first 100 detoxification patients. . . . [and found] compelling evidence that the results of our treatment were no better than the natural history of the disease."

One interesting observation: a long-term study of over 4,500 subjects found that more treated alcoholics than untreated alcoholics had been abusing or dependent on alcohol within the previous year! It is really difficult to draw any conclusions from that bit of information!

AA hasn't hurt or harmed anyone at all ever? There are many ways AA can be harmful, whether you look at it statistically, philosophically, or by asking individuals who have left the program.

Coerced treatment is often harmful, resulting in depression, mental illness, and increased substance abuse. Most coerced treatment (93% of treatment in the US) follows the 12-step model, and is often simply mandatory attendance at AA meetings. Failure to accept the coerced treatment results in loss of employment or prison, so the outcome is undesirable to the participant either way.

If in fact AA was as effective as no treatment at all, then AA attendance would not be harmful. But if it delays those for whom it is inappropriate from seeking alternatives which may be more effective for them, then it is harmful. If it is, in fact, less effective than other treatments or than no treatment at all, it is harmful.

In that regard, the simple phrase 'Keep Coming Back' is harmful to someone who is not finding AA helpful.

To tell them that they are somehow responsible for the program not working is harmful. If someone who questions the tenets of AA is told to 'take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth' or to 'stop thinking, stop talking, and start listening' -- they are being harmed. They should simply be urged to look elsewhere, not blamed because AA didn't work for them.

Recommending the program for someone who may have abused alcohol but is not alcohol-dependent, and who may have depression or other mental illness, is potentially very harmful. I would consider sending a depressed teenager to AA for an episode of substance abuse to be very irresponsible. They should be counseled by professionals, not put into a peer-based system.

You and I are not statistics; we are individuals, so the outcome of our application of any particular program cannot be predicted. But those who have been harmed by AA are very real individuals, and I believe that your absolute statement ignores them.

A letter to Stanton Peele, describing the suicide of a clinically depressed pot-smoking 15 year old who had been required to attend 20 AA meetings in 30 days, illustrates poignantly how AA can be harmful.
http://www.peele.net/faq/aasuicide.html

Don S

Music

Thanks again Don for all your hard work in digging up information that will bolster your point of view and in turn, undermine AA in some way, shape or form. Now AA is to blame for some 15 year old committing sucicide. Maybe the person who sentenced this kid to 20 AA meetings in 30 days should be horsewhipped. C'mon Don. Get off it. AA leaves it up to the individual whether or not to "keep coming back" and the fact that a good number of the people who come to AA have an overblown opinion of themselves and their own ability to make intelligent decisioins, I'm sure accounts for their inability to "keep coming back." That's why after admitting powerlessness over alcohol in the first step, it's suggested that I find a "higher power" of "my own understanding" to help me continue on the road to recovery.

I believe that at the bottom of the last page of chapter 3 in the Big Book, there's a "must" that was maybe overlooked by a past poster. Check it out. Not you though Don. Not having been to an AA meeting and armed with all the knowledge from other programs I guess is sufficient in your case.

Take care and just don't drink. All will be well.

Patsyd1

Don, those studies that you are posting were done by outside agencies that took about 300 arrested drunks, and they kept records on them resulting from the court that ordered them to AA. AA had nothing to do with these people that are so called coerced status.

Those people who are being court ordered are not AA members, unless they say so. Those statics of your are based on outside sources, namely the courts and treatment centers that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Alcoholics Anonymous at all.

I find it funny Don that you would post statements that say that AA did the survey. Thats crap, complete crap. The courts did the survey's along with others who were involved OUTSIDE of AA and they took people who were arrested and didn't want to be in AA at all, but were court ordered there. AA has no say over where or what the courts do with people who come before them or the surveys that the courts and others do.

Its insulting to read the things that you claim that are from AA. Go and read it again Don, it came from the courts, and surveys done on those who were arrested or in treatment centers.... and AA wasn't involved at all in these surveys.

The other thing that I would like for you to know Don, is that the other study claiming that AA did the survey....... I have news for you Don, I have been in AA and very active for 15 yrs. I have never not once seen this survey that you speak of, I have never once been asked to make one out, or answer any questions by AA, the AA group or any individual in AA.

Are they keeping these survey's so secret, that they hide them from AA members too Don?

The survey's that you talk about had nothing to do with AA. And Since you have never been to a meeting, and do not ever intend to even look into a real meeting, then anything that you post Don would be coming from anywhere and everywhere else, and certainly not from AA.

We can all post survey's Don of just about anything, and all those surveys would be printings what they found from the sources they used, and AA isn't one of them.

I have suggestion for you Don, please call AA World Services and get the facts about what you post, before you post.

To be honest with you Don, your own prejudice against AA is so apparent. If what you are doing is working for you Don, why in God's name would you spend so much of your time and efforts to post things about AA that are coming from sources that have nothing to do with AA at all. Amazing just amazing.

Please get honest Don, AA had absolutely nothing to do with court ordering anyone, anywhere. Looking for someone to blame Don for this 15 yr old's death? Good, then find out why this judge made the decision to court order a 15 yr old boy into Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, when this boy's problem was depression and smoking pot. Now that would something worth your time and effort Don, because holding AA responsible and accountable for what a judge orders in court, is ludicrist at best. I can assure you that AA is not consulted by any judge or court when they make their determinations, their findings or their court orders.


Take care Don, and I have found these lastest postings of yours, full of more misinformation and out right deceit, to very unsettling indeed. Whats unsettling to me is that you post as if you have valid information from AA, and what you have are misinformed surveys from every source claiming, just as you are doing, that its from AA. When the facts are that this misinformation is from everywhere and everyone.... but AA.

Patsyd1

Hi Peter,

I shared that AA hasn't hurt anyone ever, and I stand by that statement. What I ought to have shared is that AA as a whole hasn't hurt anyone ever. No I do not speak for AA as a whole, nor do I represent AA in any way, form or fashion. I am sharing as an AA member, and what I was sharing is from my own experience, that some peoples misinformed opinions do hurt others, and yes Peter, you can assume that I mean misinformed AA members also.

In AA we are all at varying degrees of recovery, and there are many times that its in our best interest as well as the newcomer to share when a newcomer makes statements made from simply not understanding what AA is, what AA does and doesn't do. We have the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions to be applied to our own lives first, and pass it on.

If I do not see what I want to see in the halls of AA, then I DO what it is that I want to see in the halls of AA. If I do not hear what I want to hear in the halls of AA, then I share what I want to hear in the halls of AA. I am one AA member among many AA members today, all at varying degrees of recovery. It was shared with me that all I can do is be the best example of what 15 yrs of recovery in AA can do, and that is what I strive to do today. Am I perfect? Not on your life. LOL


And that is so so true. LOL

I too have heard things that I cringe, and today I do speak up and share what my experience has been here in the halls of AA, by sharing what I have learned with The Steps and The Traditions. I suggest that anyone who really wants to know what AA is and what its about, that they attend Step meetings and Traditions meetings, to learn and apply the Steps and the Traditions the way they are layed out, and not the way that some "think" they MUST BE.

I agree with you completely Peter. I also agree that we pass on what was passed to us. I have been sharing my own experience, strength and hope here, and have been accused of shoving AA down people's throats. Now, its one thing to TELL others what they should do, or have to do, its another to share where I came from, how I got here and what its like now. I was sharing about ME, and still there are those who will only see & hear what they want to see & hear. I have no control over what anyone else sees, hears, or what they say, I do have control over what I share. I recognize that people change daily, and over time and yes that time takes time, I also recognize that when misinformation is put forth, then I can choose to sit in silence, or I can choose to speak up and share what my experiences have been with this simple program.

I absolutely agree with you.

There would be no AA members if it were not for the very hard work of those early AA'ers, and the 12 Traditions. AA members came to adopt the 12 Traditions because of the fighting, the many rules and the wars that were going on in AA groups, between AA members, that threatened AA's very existence. AA members back then had so many rules that were so intense in each group, that if they implimented them all at once, there would be no one allowed to attend. The Traditons adhered to, keep AA groups gathered together in unity, to keep the doors open for the newcomer and all AA members.
AA groups must survive or the individual will die.

Without the Traditions, there would be no AA as whole, no AA groups, and no where for the newcomer to come to so he could spill coffee on his shirt. The doors of AA would close tight.

AA as a whole has hurt no one, ever. That statement imho is very accurate. Yes there are AA members in varying degrees of recovery and yes they may hurt others with their lack of understanding, knowledge and practice of how AA as a whole stays united. Unity, Recovery and Service.

Religion has hurt many, and have helped many. Peter, what does that have to do with AA as a whole, the AA group or the AA member? AA is not a religious program, it is a spiritual program. AA has no opinions on outside issues, and religion is an outside issue.
What ones religion is, is the business of the AA member and not that of this society.
Bill Wilson addressed this very subject at the following:
" National Clergy Conference On Alcoholism
The "Blue Book" Vol.12, 179-210, 1960
Alcoholics Anonymous
Bill W.
Co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous
Reverend Raymond J.H. Kennedy, S.J., Chairman
Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its members: No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet membership conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system of authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least competitive with the Church. At the center of our society we have a Board of Trustees.
This body is accountable yearly to a Conference of elected Delegates. These
Delegates represent the conscience and desire of AA as regards functional or
service matters. Our Tradition contains an emphatic injunction that these Trustees may never constitute themselves as a government - they are to merely provide certain services that enable AA as a whole to function. The same principles apply at our group and area level.
Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own religious views. For whatever they may be worth, I have my own. But both of us have gone heavily on record to the effect that these personal views and preferences can never under any conditions be injected into the AA program as a working part of it. AA is a sort of spiritual kindergarten, but that is all. Never could it be called a religion."

You are not alone in your experiences with religion and your pain Peter, I could join you in that, and so could many many others in and out of AA..... and it still remains that it has nothing to do with AA as a whole, rather it has to do with misinformation that is passed on over and over and over again.


Yes thats true Peter, unless those who have taken the time to learn what and how AA as a whole stays united, and they become willing to pass on the 12 Traditions as AA members who have been there and done that when misinformation comes calling.
I am not saying that we should stand guard over AA, thats not what we do here in the halls of AA. AA doesn't need any of us to defend what has been working for many many years. I will share what my experience, strength and hope is as an AA member who attends AA meetings, practices the 12 Steps, and attends and practices AA's 12 Traditions, both in the halls and out.

Passing on what I have learned about AA's unity, recovery and service is passed on through print, its in the 12 and 12 for all who care to learn what AA really is about. Its there for all to see, to read, to understand, to discuss and to practice. There is no reason at all for any AA member, newcomer or otherwise, to have to guess how or why AA works in unity, recovery and service.
When I came into the halls of AA as a newcomer, it was suggested that I get a sponsor and use her. Well I took the suggestions, and I got a sponsor who was working, applying and practicing this program in her own life first, and passing it on, and she had a sponsor of her own. Back then the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions were passed on through sponsorship, the AA group, from one AA member to another and discussed at group business meetings and Traditions Meetings. Today I see too many who make statements like "I don't care about the Traditions, they have nothing to do with me or my sobriety" Frightening isn't it?

The old time AAer's that I know and love, do not speak their message of recovery, they share THE message of recovery in no uncertain terms, by sharing their own experience, strength and hope with each other so that they may remember where they came from, how they got here and what it is like now. There is a message of recovery, and its the 12 Steps. Today I do speak up when the opportunity arises and I do share when misinformation abounds, because we have a simple program called the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, and we gather together to pass it on to one another and to those who are new and coming through the doors of AA, where the coffee is brewing, the laughter is loud, and recovery is freely passed on from one alcoholic to another.

((((((((((((((Peter))))))))))))) you put the above is so beautifully about the Traditions, and it is the simple truth.

I haven't asked anyone to be a Christian or any other religion, I haven't asked anyone to join AA, and I haven't asked anyone to agree with me. Why? Because thats not what we do here in the halls of AA.

I believe that Talia shared it the best........ "This is a message board and is conducted differently, then a face to face AA meeting would be."

This is a recovery message board, and it includes all programs, and thats great. The truth is that this message board is completely different from a real face to face AA meeting. On line recovery is a great addition to, but ought never be a replacement for real live face to face AA meetings imho.

Thank you Peter for your sincere reply, its wonderful to hear from an AA'er who works this simple in his own life first, and then pass it on beautifully as you have done here at this recovery site.

God Bless you Peter, and thank you for your powerful share,
Patsy