Mixed feelings about AA being a cult
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
This puts the movement into a 'Do as I say, not as I do' mentality. But, as I'm learning each day, folks have their own mindset, just as society at large.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
courage2, I don't think you have much of an idea of what it is you're arguing for or against. For the most part, I'm in your camp, but as you appear to be looking for a stoush at any cost, I will respectfully request that you tone down your negative attitude towards me.
xxoo
sincerely
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
"the programme of suggestions in the Big Book is seen as almost a Holy Text."
I brought this up at a meeting once. I also said I felt the founder was just a human being with lots of faults and I was troubled by him being treated and quoted as if he were the messiah. I was treated to a 45 minute quote filled lecture from an old timer. Oops!
It was my last meeting.
I brought this up at a meeting once. I also said I felt the founder was just a human being with lots of faults and I was troubled by him being treated and quoted as if he were the messiah. I was treated to a 45 minute quote filled lecture from an old timer. Oops!
It was my last meeting.
I often recommend to those new in AA that it's a good idea to check out various meetings as they often differ in format and flavor.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
What amuses me is that Bill W was doing some very regular workshops with LSD to aid as a tool to awaken spirituality, yet if you talk to an oldtimer about using hallucinogens for spiritual growth (in the context of being used as they have been for thousands of years) it's an absolute, no-discussion-will-be-entered-into capital N capital O.
This puts the movement into a 'Do as I say, not as I do' mentality. But, as I'm learning each day, folks have their own mindset, just as society at large.
This puts the movement into a 'Do as I say, not as I do' mentality. But, as I'm learning each day, folks have their own mindset, just as society at large.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
From what I've read about the man I think BW would have preferred his struggles within sobriety weren't swept under the carpet. He was flawed but aren't we all? Imo, his brilliance was in the way he put the AA program together: no dues, no leaders, no opinion on outside issues and the only requirement is to be an alcoholic.
For the most part, I'm dismissive of Bill W. 'praise', and I really don't want what he had (apart from maybe the LSD therapies with Aldous Huxley ha ha). A womanizing, adulterous chronic smoker who seemed to never lose the compulsion to drink, as he begged for a quart of hard liqor on his death bed - again I understand that the AA council went to great lengths to stop this, thus saving face for the continued longevity of the movement.
This is what keeps me coming back. As a result I am becoming more self-reflective, open minded and responsible. It hasn't kept me sober the entire time I have been going, but I at least have some hope within my heart/mind.
If I were at a meeting and the word 'Jesus' were being thrown about liberally by more than one person, on a single occasion, I would walk out. There is NO PLACE for Jesus in the fellowship as a collective. What an individual chooses to hold on to is their own decision, but to assign the very religion that many newcomers are seeing in the steps (ie with the western understanding of the word 'god') is actually going to hinder new members in coming back.
I don't live in the USA, but find it startling to hear that some groups recite a christian prayer ('Our Father who art in Heaven etc'). This goes against the 'not allied with any sect, politics, religion, organisation' preamble. How would they feel if started a meeting and recited a passage from the Quran each week, I wonder.
If I were at a meeting and the word 'Jesus' were being thrown about liberally by more than one person, on a single occasion, I would walk out. There is NO PLACE for Jesus in the fellowship as a collective. What an individual chooses to hold on to is their own decision, but to assign the very religion that many newcomers are seeing in the steps (ie with the western understanding of the word 'god') is actually going to hinder new members in coming back.
I don't live in the USA, but find it startling to hear that some groups recite a christian prayer ('Our Father who art in Heaven etc'). This goes against the 'not allied with any sect, politics, religion, organisation' preamble. How would they feel if started a meeting and recited a passage from the Quran each week, I wonder.
It says in the big book we can call our higher power whatever we want.
That's the beauty of it! That's part of what has kept the fellowship alive.
Each group is autonomous, which is self governing. They choose if there will even be a prayer. That's the beauty of it!!!! That's part of what has kept the fellowship alive.
You don't live in the U.S.
Why in the hell are you even being concerned with anything thousands of miles away and out of your power??.
Your more,than welcome to start a meeting and recite from the Quran.
Just as I am allowed to not attend That meeting.
I'm not comparing alcoholism to cancer, I am saying imagine a doctor prescribing meetings and talking to "cure" any other disease or ailment.... that is what's asinine. That in the 21st century we are still using a 1930's "cure" with a pitiful 5% success rate to combat a very real problem. Great if AA worked for you. You are one of the lucky few.
Why blame AA for the 5% success rate you claim? Did AA put a drink in anyone's hand?
In other words, whose responsable for a persons recovery? Who is responsable,for a person drinking?
AA doesn't get people drunk. They do that all themselves.
Congrats on 7 months and knowing everything there's to know about alcoholism,
Now put pen to paper and share with the world your wealth of knowledge on how to get and stay sober.
let's all remember rule 4 please.
Respect is a two way street.
Dee
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SR
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I wonder what would happen if someone went into one of those meetings and called their higher power "Satan"?
You seem to be correct miamifella
When I hear the name of Jesus in meetings from time to time it is not often openly accepted by many in attendance.
(I never heard anyone getting away with talking about "Jesus" in a meeting.)
You seem to be correct miamifella
When I hear the name of Jesus in meetings from time to time it is not often openly accepted by many in attendance.
(I never heard anyone getting away with talking about "Jesus" in a meeting.)
Some will know that their father is the devil and admit it. Others will have the devil as their father and yet not know it.
John 8:44
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
MountainmanBob
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: Washington, MO
Posts: 2,306
My only higher powers are gravity, time and occasionally my wife. Alcohol was until I stopped drinking it--same with smokes. I am a grateful recovered superstitionist but hold the human spirit in the highest regard. Magical thinking is so darned....unreliable.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 607
I rotated 6 different meetings over a total of over a year between going back "out". Started each stint with the recommend 90 in 90. Now almost 2.5 years clean doing it my way instead of doing what I was told. Not saying that if it works for you, you should stop going. Just not my thing I guess. Wasn't going to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results.
Why blame AA for the 5% success rate you claim? Did AA put a drink in anyone's hand?
In other words, whose responsable for a persons recovery? Who is responsable,for a person drinking?
AA doesn't get people drunk. They do that all themselves.
Congrats on 7 months and knowing everything there's to know about alcoholism,
Now put pen to paper and share with the world your wealth of knowledge on how to get and stay sober.
In other words, whose responsable for a persons recovery? Who is responsable,for a person drinking?
AA doesn't get people drunk. They do that all themselves.
Congrats on 7 months and knowing everything there's to know about alcoholism,
Now put pen to paper and share with the world your wealth of knowledge on how to get and stay sober.
I agree that we each of us have responsiblity for our behaviours, TomSteve. That is an excellent starting point.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
If alcoholism is really a disease then why is the most prescribed treatment faith healing? Can you imagine a doctor telling someone with cancer, or diabetes, or aids to "turn it over to a higher power?" When addiction treatment gets out of the dark ages we will see better than 5% recovery rates.
Yes... AA does tell it's members to "turn it over to a higher power", but only after trying everything thing else first. AA works best when it is the last resort. I have never seen a cult that would say that.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 453
This was an "anything goes" kind of group, but also a group where they'd let a homeless drunk sleep it off in the back and when he wet himself, they'd clean it up during the meeting and not make a fuss.
I went to an atheist/agnostic meeting once where the topic of discussion was "What do you hate most about AA?"
Maybe not to everyone's taste, but it definitely made the impression on me in my early days that AA is most definitely not a cult. Or if it is, it's a really, really badly run one, hahaha.
I think sometimes individual members can make it seem like a cult, but in my experience, you can say and do anything you want and still be a member.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
I went to AA many years ago to get sober, not to debate the principles of the program. There were very few options at the time, so I've no idea whether or not I'd have chosen something else if such a thing existed. When I went back to AA three-and-a-half years ago following a three-year relapse after twenty five years without a drink, I did so because I'd built a very good life for myself prior to my relapse. The problem with attempting to recover on my terms was that doing so had no track record for success, and that AA did.
I've done graduate work in philosophy and psychology. I'm on intimate terms with the arguments for and against the existence of God. I find them uncompelling and tiresome; philosophy in inaction.
I've never been easily persuaded to do anything, so I didn't care about some of the goofy suggestions I heard. Some of the things I heard in meetings angered me, so much so that I no longer recall what they were. No one ever questioned my sobriety, told me that I needed to go to more meetings, or said that I'd drink again or die if I didn't believe in a Higher Power. One guy approached me early on and told me that he smokes weed as a replacement for alcohol. He offered to be my sponsor. I think he wanted someone to get high with who wasn't drinking.
Why would I care if it turns out that I achieved sobriety with the help of a cult? Sobriety doesn't know where it comes from, and if it did, it wouldn't care.
I've done graduate work in philosophy and psychology. I'm on intimate terms with the arguments for and against the existence of God. I find them uncompelling and tiresome; philosophy in inaction.
I've never been easily persuaded to do anything, so I didn't care about some of the goofy suggestions I heard. Some of the things I heard in meetings angered me, so much so that I no longer recall what they were. No one ever questioned my sobriety, told me that I needed to go to more meetings, or said that I'd drink again or die if I didn't believe in a Higher Power. One guy approached me early on and told me that he smokes weed as a replacement for alcohol. He offered to be my sponsor. I think he wanted someone to get high with who wasn't drinking.
Why would I care if it turns out that I achieved sobriety with the help of a cult? Sobriety doesn't know where it comes from, and if it did, it wouldn't care.
It's not the spiritual element of the programme per se that I disagree with. Nor is it the structure of the meetings. The problem in the groups I go to is the dominance of old timers who repeatedly talk about their recovery as a salvation but don't seem to be moving on in other areas of their lives even decades after stopping drinking.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that people ofter turned to drink because of very disfunctional or unhappy childhoods. They are quite emotionally damaged and therefore cling to the group in a rather needy way - sometimes akin to co-dependency. The other thing is that long term drinking wrecked people's lives so badly that they are still surrounded by a lot of wreckage but because they've stopped drinking, they (quite understandably) focus on staying completely abstinent rather than setting new goals, such as living with integrity or managing relationships better.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that people ofter turned to drink because of very disfunctional or unhappy childhoods. They are quite emotionally damaged and therefore cling to the group in a rather needy way - sometimes akin to co-dependency. The other thing is that long term drinking wrecked people's lives so badly that they are still surrounded by a lot of wreckage but because they've stopped drinking, they (quite understandably) focus on staying completely abstinent rather than setting new goals, such as living with integrity or managing relationships better.
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