Mixed feelings about AA being a cult
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,130
Mixed feelings about AA being a cult
I know that from time to time, people on this site debate whether they think AA is a cult. This post kind of relates to that but it's also personal.
So, I now have seven weeks since my last drink and before that I only took a drink once since last August. So that's quite a lot of sober time and a lot of AA meetings.
I want to be clear. AA has been helpful. I have learned a lot and I have made some friendships with supportive people. I've got a sponsor and I'm attempting to do the steps. I have read the Big Book a couple of times, including the stuff at the back about people who recovered.
My feeling is that as a system to change your mind about drinking and inspire you to stay sober, AA works well. At least it did for me. As a way of programming you to a fulfilling life, I'm not so sure.
The last meeting I went to was two days ago and there were a lot of long shares from people with more than ten years sobriety. One of them specifically brought up the subject of whether AA is a cult and of course he denied it is. "No one makes you do anything - it's all suggestions."
I don't really go along with that. The group pressure is strong and although people can't be coerced into sobriety, they are under a lot of pressure to think the AA way. For example, the programme of suggestions in the Big Book is seen as almost a Holy Text. Debate and discussion is not actively encouraged. As one person said on Saturday "I was encouraged to leave my intellect at the door".
It's not the spiritual element of the programme per se that I disagree with. Nor is it the structure of the meetings. The problem in the groups I go to is the dominance of old timers who repeatedly talk about their recovery as a salvation but don't seem to be moving on in other areas of their lives even decades after stopping drinking.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that people ofter turned to drink because of very disfunctional or unhappy childhoods. They are quite emotionally damaged and therefore cling to the group in a rather needy way - sometimes akin to co-dependency. The other thing is that long term drinking wrecked people's lives so badly that they are still surrounded by a lot of wreckage but because they've stopped drinking, they (quite understandably) focus on staying completely abstinent rather than setting new goals, such as living with integrity or managing relationships better.
Of course, this isn't meant as an attack on AA in general. It's purely my perspective at the moment and I know my feelings about the group change. I think i'm tempted to step back from AA a little bit at the moment. Part of me warns that could prelude another relapse. Another part of me says it would be better to seek out the company of sane, thoughtful people who haven't been affected by alcoholism.
So, I now have seven weeks since my last drink and before that I only took a drink once since last August. So that's quite a lot of sober time and a lot of AA meetings.
I want to be clear. AA has been helpful. I have learned a lot and I have made some friendships with supportive people. I've got a sponsor and I'm attempting to do the steps. I have read the Big Book a couple of times, including the stuff at the back about people who recovered.
My feeling is that as a system to change your mind about drinking and inspire you to stay sober, AA works well. At least it did for me. As a way of programming you to a fulfilling life, I'm not so sure.
The last meeting I went to was two days ago and there were a lot of long shares from people with more than ten years sobriety. One of them specifically brought up the subject of whether AA is a cult and of course he denied it is. "No one makes you do anything - it's all suggestions."
I don't really go along with that. The group pressure is strong and although people can't be coerced into sobriety, they are under a lot of pressure to think the AA way. For example, the programme of suggestions in the Big Book is seen as almost a Holy Text. Debate and discussion is not actively encouraged. As one person said on Saturday "I was encouraged to leave my intellect at the door".
It's not the spiritual element of the programme per se that I disagree with. Nor is it the structure of the meetings. The problem in the groups I go to is the dominance of old timers who repeatedly talk about their recovery as a salvation but don't seem to be moving on in other areas of their lives even decades after stopping drinking.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that people ofter turned to drink because of very disfunctional or unhappy childhoods. They are quite emotionally damaged and therefore cling to the group in a rather needy way - sometimes akin to co-dependency. The other thing is that long term drinking wrecked people's lives so badly that they are still surrounded by a lot of wreckage but because they've stopped drinking, they (quite understandably) focus on staying completely abstinent rather than setting new goals, such as living with integrity or managing relationships better.
Of course, this isn't meant as an attack on AA in general. It's purely my perspective at the moment and I know my feelings about the group change. I think i'm tempted to step back from AA a little bit at the moment. Part of me warns that could prelude another relapse. Another part of me says it would be better to seek out the company of sane, thoughtful people who haven't been affected by alcoholism.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,130
Scott - Thanks for the advice about the function of the Newcomers Forum. By all means, move my post to a different part of the site if you feel it's not appropriate here. The last thing I want to do is to deter people from seeking help face to face through AA.
My brain is trying to kill me
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Palo Alto, ca
Posts: 401
Well composed thoughts, and in general I very much agree. My Mantra with AA is what I learned in AA "I take what I need and leave the rest". My Recovery is very personal and I treat it that way with a great deal of respect for the work I DO.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
breath, those last four words resonate with me. I like feeling a sense of empowerment, that it is I that is doing the work. I didn't turn myself over to a higher power. I'm agnostic, for one thing. The few times I've attended meetings I appreciated the sense of community but didn't want to go back. My meetings are happening right here anytime day or night. That said, I appreciate that many benefit from AA but also see that many seem stuck. The last meeting I went to a pair of women walked in late. One was obviously hammered. She later shared that she was the sponsor of the woman who dragged her to the meeting. There was beauty and sadness in that, but I have sufficient beauty and sadness in my own life thank you very much. The genious and the great risk with AA is that meetings are not run by professionals. All people are flawed, not to mention addicts like you and me or those running meetings and sponsoring. People ought to enter knowing fully the potential risks.
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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Zero - yes that point that the meetings are not run by professionals is quite important, isn't it? In business I go to lots of meetings and sometimes I come out of one thinking it was badly chaired or badly managed. Of course, if AA was run by professionals it would lose its special democratic characteristic.
Breath - yes your point about taking what I need is also helpful. Again, this could apply to other areas of my life too. Businesses events, church services, even family gatherings. But it's not just about taking of course, it's also about contributing.
Breath - yes your point about taking what I need is also helpful. Again, this could apply to other areas of my life too. Businesses events, church services, even family gatherings. But it's not just about taking of course, it's also about contributing.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Washington, MO
Posts: 2,306
I have had the same on/off relationship with the program. Currently I do not go to meetings. I do however call my sponsor (friend) and we talk about regular stuff from time to time. I also visit another friend who is in a nursing home from MS. Other than that I come here daily and have no real "alcohol problems" to speak of. I've recently tried to go back and re-connect but no such luck. The tools I've learned here are not-so well appreciated if one cannot find a BB phrase to frame the Idea. For some there is no equivalent. RR and avrt helped me a great deal and I'm not keen on the constant god-talk so it's best I just move on than try to fit this peg into their hole. Best wishes on finding intelligent life (you will).
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
special democratic... what/ I couldn't copy...
Maybe there is a democratic approach to how much dues to keep in the fund and how much to send on, and how much literature to purchase etc. or whether or not to send a group to the local hospital or jail for a presentation/meeting. Maybe the "group conscience" is arrived at by roberts rules of order... or whatever.
But everything else is strictly by the 'book' as far as I know. There is no debate or democratic process to recovery. Anyone who is not part of the hierarchy of the group - yes there is - just follows the "suggestions" and that's it. There is no debate. The big book says this, the big book says that.
That is fact. That is why I am not a "welcome" non-participant at meetings.
It's like the Amish in a way. If you don't adhere to the rules, you are shunned.
And the "suggestions" are the rules.
Just my experience.
But it does work if you work it.
Maybe there is a democratic approach to how much dues to keep in the fund and how much to send on, and how much literature to purchase etc. or whether or not to send a group to the local hospital or jail for a presentation/meeting. Maybe the "group conscience" is arrived at by roberts rules of order... or whatever.
But everything else is strictly by the 'book' as far as I know. There is no debate or democratic process to recovery. Anyone who is not part of the hierarchy of the group - yes there is - just follows the "suggestions" and that's it. There is no debate. The big book says this, the big book says that.
That is fact. That is why I am not a "welcome" non-participant at meetings.
It's like the Amish in a way. If you don't adhere to the rules, you are shunned.
And the "suggestions" are the rules.
Just my experience.
But it does work if you work it.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,042
My experience in AA has mostly been good and undoubtedly good for me -- in fact, I'm going to two anniversary meetings this week, one in about an hour, to celebrate 1 year in Feb.
But, the meetings are dominated by dogmatists. And if you're very far outside the AA box, best not to say much about it until and unless you've found other fringe-dwellers. There are lots of them, but they don't share a lot. Except at beginners' meetings -- Beginners' meetings are kind of cool because they're often full of people who don't even know the "rules" and so they bring up interesting stuff.
I've been told explicitly by old-timers that I couldn't stay sober if I didn't believe in God, and I've been told "now I'm sure you're one of us" -- the latter freaked me out more than the former.
Though I'm not solidly "in the program", I intend to stay connected to AA for the time being. The thing about support is you never know when you'll need it. For me it's not important whether debate is encouraged -- it's important that I have a place to go with a bunch of live bodies who won't tell me I'm better off drunk.
But, the meetings are dominated by dogmatists. And if you're very far outside the AA box, best not to say much about it until and unless you've found other fringe-dwellers. There are lots of them, but they don't share a lot. Except at beginners' meetings -- Beginners' meetings are kind of cool because they're often full of people who don't even know the "rules" and so they bring up interesting stuff.
I've been told explicitly by old-timers that I couldn't stay sober if I didn't believe in God, and I've been told "now I'm sure you're one of us" -- the latter freaked me out more than the former.
Though I'm not solidly "in the program", I intend to stay connected to AA for the time being. The thing about support is you never know when you'll need it. For me it's not important whether debate is encouraged -- it's important that I have a place to go with a bunch of live bodies who won't tell me I'm better off drunk.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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Originally Posted by endlesspatience 
Another part of me says it would be better to seek out the company of sane, thoughtful people who haven't been affected by alcoholism.
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
C'mon dude.
3 months off the booze and you've got everyone sussed out, including what motivated and motivates people etc etc.
Are they trying to brain wash you into joining the mob mentality???
Or have these old timers seen too many newcomers depart after a few months, only to come back later in a worse state.
Wife gone, car wrecked etc.
I think one of the biggest traps to fall into is thinking "they're out to control me, it's group think. "
Get a few more months up and the perspective changes.
"these guys are here trying to help me for no other reason than they care"
3 months off the booze and you've got everyone sussed out, including what motivated and motivates people etc etc.
Are they trying to brain wash you into joining the mob mentality???
Or have these old timers seen too many newcomers depart after a few months, only to come back later in a worse state.
Wife gone, car wrecked etc.
I think one of the biggest traps to fall into is thinking "they're out to control me, it's group think. "
Get a few more months up and the perspective changes.
"these guys are here trying to help me for no other reason than they care"
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
I moved this thread to Alcoholism forum.
You'll find a greater concentration of people with direct experience of AA here.
I've never seen a cult where the members argue so much amongst themselves, dude....
like Scott said, if its not for you, there's many other approaches available - have you considered those, EP?
Dee
Moderator
SR
You'll find a greater concentration of people with direct experience of AA here.
I've never seen a cult where the members argue so much amongst themselves, dude....
like Scott said, if its not for you, there's many other approaches available - have you considered those, EP?
Dee
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SR
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 10,962
Originally Posted by endlesspatience
Another part of me says it would be better to seek out the company of sane, thoughtful people who haven't been affected by alcoholism.
Good luck with that.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,229
My gripe and it doesnt have to be AA specific is when one decides another should be accountable to them or thats the underlying tone basicly. I do not do well at all being accountable to anyone but me and prefer it be that way. But i've also had issues with authority all my life so i guess this is to be expected.
I saw someone once suggest being accountability partners. i thought who does this benefit the one suggesting it getting there rocks off by holding the other accountable? or is it really a guenuine relationship that only servers to help one another? Some people do get there jollies off holding others accountable.
i've never really seen any of that first hand inside of the walls of an AA meeting however why i said its not really AA specific.
My other gripe is how people on this board can rapidly hit some new comer with something like "what is your plan and how bout going to a meeting" It strikes both the I'm going to try and hold you accountable and you better get to the AA meeting as if aa is the only solution.
But again some folks are just that way and to be honest some people need to be handled in such fashion.
I myself have been called out on my own BS and while i sometimes dislike that ok well almost always dislike it its normally needed. But sometimes people are just off base but i'm sure there intentions are good I assume.
I guess the point is a lot of it is all in how you perceive things or what you want to take away from it. Dont like the cultish types find a new meeting or do something other then AA whats the issue.
I saw someone once suggest being accountability partners. i thought who does this benefit the one suggesting it getting there rocks off by holding the other accountable? or is it really a guenuine relationship that only servers to help one another? Some people do get there jollies off holding others accountable.
i've never really seen any of that first hand inside of the walls of an AA meeting however why i said its not really AA specific.
My other gripe is how people on this board can rapidly hit some new comer with something like "what is your plan and how bout going to a meeting" It strikes both the I'm going to try and hold you accountable and you better get to the AA meeting as if aa is the only solution.
But again some folks are just that way and to be honest some people need to be handled in such fashion.
I myself have been called out on my own BS and while i sometimes dislike that ok well almost always dislike it its normally needed. But sometimes people are just off base but i'm sure there intentions are good I assume.
I guess the point is a lot of it is all in how you perceive things or what you want to take away from it. Dont like the cultish types find a new meeting or do something other then AA whats the issue.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
When I ask someone what their plan is, it's for their benefit not mine zjw.
I have no interest in anyone being accountable or beholden to me.
I think a lot of people actually like being accountable to this community tho
D
I have no interest in anyone being accountable or beholden to me.
I think a lot of people actually like being accountable to this community tho
D
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,229
Originally Posted by Dee74
When I ask someone what their plan is, it's for their benefit not mine zjw.
I have no interest in anyone being accountable or beholden to me.
I think a lot of people actually like being accountable to this community tho
D
I have no interest in anyone being accountable or beholden to me.
I think a lot of people actually like being accountable to this community tho
D
but the issue is also me in how i perceive it. someone asks me what my plan is and i wanna slap them thats normally the first thing that come to mind anyhow then I have to tell myself oh geeze cut them some slack there probably trying to help me.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 143
In my opinion, it would be better if they can drop the whole " Hi I am Betty and I am an alcoholic" Group responds "Hi Betty".... That is just weird. You wouldn't be there if you didn't have a problem with alcohol. Especially, when you are new it is weird.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Cults are better organized. Cults have leadership. Cults will banish you for extremely bad behavior. Cults want more than a dollar from you. Cults won't let you hijack their meetings to talk about your problem-du-jour. Cults make a lot more sense. 
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