Ken33xx

You originally wrote:
Which I take to mean based on what you shared a member with a lot of time under their belt (old-timer) took it upon themselves to lecture on you.

Of course, you were annoyed and with good reason.

In other words weren’t comfortable sharing your concerns in any of the 6 meetings? Personally, I too, have questioned what I’ve heard in meetings and take a cafeteria style approach to AA. However, I’ve always been able to find meetings where I can share honestly without others in the group trying to make me feel unwelcome.

But by the same token I had to learn not to be deliberately confrontational in my shares.

Now, I’m not saying you were (deliberately confrontational) but zero for 6 isn’t a good track record.


Sounds like whatever you're doing is working and that's what it's all about.

A couple of months back I saw a member who I hadn't seen in a long time. I thought he left the country or had gone back to drinking. He shared that he was sober but didn't feel the need to come to AA much.

No drama and those who knew the man were glad to see him.

He left and I've not seen him since.

wheresthefun

Carlotta

Now don't start giving me ideas!!! I have a sick sense of humor and sometimes way too much time on my hands I would probably have to travel to a more rural area though.

Darn someone already pulled that prank!

Wouldn't the Devil be a lower power rather than a higher power anyway?

anattaboy

"Diary of a drug fiend" by aleister crowley gives a good example of using powers-other-than-christian for overcoming addiction (actually moderating). Bill was much better at self-promotion tho.

MIRecovery

One of the bed rock principles of my recovery is, "Accepting the world as it is. Not as I would have it."

I work on myself not all of the things I have no control over.

Imabuleva

What about doctors?

One does not have to be an alcoholic to understand alcoholism.

Incidentally, one does not have to believe in Yahweh to recover from alcoholism either.

Hawks

join us again next month, when someone else reads the internet and this topic re-appears for another twirl round the sandpit.

Here's Bill with the weather.

LBrain

Well the mercury rose a bit here in the northeast. High in the low 20's this afternoon with plenty of sun throughout the day. Lows once again drop to or below zero tonight. Winds are calm with high pressure from the north dominating the atmosphere for the next couple days.

Watch out for icy spots on the drive home..
Back to you.

dsmaxis10

I agree the treat the big book like it's HOLY and they will say it's there favorite book. But in the big book it says AA spiritual kindy garden and a lot of old timers haven't moved past kindy garden if it's there favorite spiritual book.

Carlotta

Well you know, there are only two requirements to become an old timer in AA:
Don't drink and Don't croak.
Anyway, I need to get going soon. I have to be at my home group in one hour: we've got a 2pm meeting and I am in charge of the Kool Aid

ru12

Have a good meeting Carlotta.

lacey424

[QUOTE=tomsteve;5221259]Why blame AA for the 5% success rate you claim? Did AA put a drink in anyone's hand?
In other words, whose responsable for a persons recovery? Who is responsable,for a person drinking?
AA doesn't get people drunk. They do that all themselves.

Congrats on 7 months and knowing everything there's to know about alcoholism,
Now put pen to paper and share with the world your wealth of knowledge on how to get and stay sober.[/QUOT

I'm allowed to voice MY opinion. I never claimed to know everything about alcoholism. I do know that we need more research and more alternatives to fight this disease. If you went to the hospital for ANY problem and they treated you with 80 year old treatments YOU WOULD PROTEST. AA and 12 steps are the most prescribed treatment. They aren't that successful. Period. We need SOMETHING ELSE. I don't know what that is, but I am not a doctor or research scientist. I think alcoholism deserves the same attention as other diseases.

Shamal

I feel like these sorts of comments are patronizing towards newcomers, and imply that you think this is a silly or unacceptable discussion. For the most part, this thread has been civil and diplomatic, so please don't belittle the newcomers need to ask questions.

For thosw struggling with the interpretation of 'god', it is often suggested that Good Orderly Direction, or Group Of Drunks, be sufficient for the moment. If the Group Of Drunks is to be the higher power that we are asked to 'turn our will and our live over to', then it would be remiss of people not to have questions as to whether it is a 'cult', as the OP has asked.

There are certainly some (note I say some) elements of what may appear to the newcomer as cult behavior, such as the holding of hands and reciting prayers, members talking in group-speak cliches, the insistence that 'every word, every italicized passage, had been written exactly that way for a reason, and no deviation on the wording is acceptable' and the treatment of Bill W's writings as gospel. It is often suggested that we consider doing away with old friends, that we give our innermost secrets over to a stranger (ie a sponsor), and that we accept that our old life was a mess, and that this secret (read: Anonymous) group holds the key. A group that strongly discourages outside interference, and seeks to control media liaison.

Please try and step away from your accepted and trusted opinion of AA for a moment, and view the fellowship through the eyes of a newcomer. A fragile, broken person who has made one of the biggest decisions in their life to join a mysterious group with what appears to be many rules, regulations, and religious reference (ie 'god', 'the creator' etc).

As you will note from my earlier contributions, I'm accepting that AA is where I need to be, and I'm working hard to accept what is still a fairly unusual international group - nothing in my past bears any similarity to the AA concept, but I'm here, and for the foreseeable future, that's going to be a big part of my life. But I'm still close enough to my first Day 1 (well, my first day of walking into the rooms) to know that AA can be a daunting concept, and I would like to hope that those 'older sober members' are not dismissive of open, articulate and respectful dialogue when people have questions or concerns.

Hawks

look busy everyone..... The sandpit supervisor just rocked up.

Now where's my bucket and spade?

Shamal

Yes, Tom... the key word being more - as in 'more open mindedness than prior to attending AA'.

In accordance with:

“We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.”

This is counter-productive. As an atheist, I don't want to go to a secular AA meeting to discuss the perceived failings of the concept. If, as the AAAA/Freethinker crowd claim, that the 12-Step model works, but for inference of a god, then they would be better served just getting on with it, instead of disparaging the origins.

I was contacted last year by a guy who was interested in starting an Atheist/Agnostic group in my town, and the entire one hour phone conversation devolved into him ranting and raving about how ridiculous christianity is, and how the conventional AA was keeping him away from long term sobriety. I politely retracted my interest in forming a new group with him, because such vitriol towards christianity has no place in the 12-Step model of recovery. In the past, I would have been as passionate as him, but my heart is leaning towards 'whatever works for you is none of my business'. As long as people don't insist that their 'god' is the only HP for everyone, then there's no place for bitterness overtaking the primary goal of helping each other to get and stay sober.

In the social media age, there appears to be a marked increase in self-identifying as an atheist, who openly and often remind people at every opportunity. Why is this the case ? Most christians, muslims, hindus, buddhist or Jewish followers don't promote their belief with such vigour. The only sects that do take an outward and 'in your face' approach to spreading their beliefs are the Jehova's Witness and the Latter Day Saints (neither of which consider themselves 'christian' as far as I know).

These 'loud & proud' atheists seem to possess an academic thesis against organised religious beliefs that is learned from little more than a bunch of Richard Dawkins quotes/memes, and the occasional YouTube video. Yet when pressed to enter into dialogue on the themes they are promoting in favour of 'no god', often they fall flat, and are without the skills to support their social media propaganda snippets. That's not to suggest that atheists need to be well-read in such matters, nor be understanding of scientific theory. Back to the more 'outward' faiths of JW or LDS, at least they have a strong basis for debate and I have spend many dozens of hours in my time discussing with them why I think their religion is fallacious. And they have an answer to everything ! They are very good at what they do, and well-versed in passages from the books they hold faith in. I'll give them credit for that.

But if they (atheists) are going to shout their proclamations from the rooftops, then they need to be familiar with the concepts they are promoting. For most atheists though, the word itself is simply a label for the census. As a non-believer (in anything) it is not their place, nor a requirement to 'prove' anything. In one's heart, something either exists or it doesn't exist.

Therein lies the problem with Atheist/Agnostic 12-Step Recovery. All too often it descends into 'this is that belief is crap'. It's an excellent discussion to be had in society, to be sure - but I go to AA to help me recover from alcohol addiction (understanding that it's about changing me, not just putting down the booze). If I wished to engage in critical debate about religion as a significant ongoing discourse, I would join a debating group (or make posts on forums haha).

There is as much place in an Atheist/Agnostic AA meeting for 'anti-religion' as there is in a traditional meeting for Jesus-based faith. And that is, not a lot. Sure it's always going t o come up, but to spend too much time on such matters is drawing away from AA's principal purpose, which is to help the alcoholic get and stay sober.

I was as critical of the motivations behind the 'Rational Recovery' method also. Being adverse to 'god' (it still stings, despite my growing open mindedness to concepts that may be considered a 'god', if we need to use such terms), I purchased that fellow's book. I was quickly put off by what appeared to be the author's open disdain for AA, and his disparaging of the 12-Step concept. There's some issues of credibility that arise when someone says 'oh, that way's crap, but my way is better'. Why should I listen to him, it's not a competition for the best recovery method. If it works for some, then that's great. If AA works for others, then that's great also. I attach myself too often to critical, negative thought about AA (a character default, perhaps), but the open disparaging comments about other methods rarely comes up... in fact I can't recall ANY instance where an AA member has stated that other recovery methods are crap (although it is inferred at times, from the old-timers mainly).

[Personal Opinion here]Mister RR also lost points in my eyes, when he took the route that the 'loud & proud' atheists do, when laying out what appeared to be neourological text with diagrams, then proceeded to tag parts of the brain with pet-names. I can certainly see how the concepts he is promoting may be of benefit, but the diagrams put it in the realm of twee psuedoscience, and bear no relevance to the study of neurology.

For those who openly dismiss AA, in favour of Rational Recovery, I feel that there's a lot of blind faith involved in accepting the author's approach. But this isn't a war of the methods. RR has helped people, so that's wonderful. AA has helped people, and that too is wonderful. I'm fortunate enough to have been exposed to recovering alcoholics and addicts that have turned their back on both, turning instead to the study and embracing of eastern philosophical 'faith', that implores the adherent to 'live right' and promotes the idea that self-improvement of the very essence of our existence is the key to contentment, whether they are an addict or a regular person.

Dee74

Can we just stick to AA in this thread?
I have enough of a headache already....

D

Shamal

It would be nice if you refrained from snide, sarcastic commentary. This isn't a demand, nor a suggestion, simply a request that you reconsider the value of your input, and what it brings to the discussion, apart from veiled hostility.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Shamal

Respectfully, may I ask why the deviation from AA is discouraged, when it is in the 'Alcoholism' subforum, rather than an AA-specific subforum?

Carlotta

Have some Dee, it will make you feel better

freshstart57

Those are valid comments about AVRT and RR, Shamal, reasonably presented with an obvious knowledge and understanding of the content. Cool.