Rational recovery vs AA
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: California
Posts: 2,693
I read about different plans for years but what bothered me about each one was that it meant I couldn't drink anymore. No sarcasm there. I wanted a method that would allow me to keep drinking.
I think of them like diet plans/book jokes. They all work if you follow them.
Now that I'm on the sober side I feel strongly that all plans are great and they all work if you are truly ready to stop. I stopped on June 27th and have been rocking the Sober Recovery plan by checking in here and posting daily.
June 26th? No plan would have worked. I wasn't ready to stop.
You sound ready to stop. You can do it too. It's so worth it.
I think of them like diet plans/book jokes. They all work if you follow them.
Now that I'm on the sober side I feel strongly that all plans are great and they all work if you are truly ready to stop. I stopped on June 27th and have been rocking the Sober Recovery plan by checking in here and posting daily.
June 26th? No plan would have worked. I wasn't ready to stop.
You sound ready to stop. You can do it too. It's so worth it.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,327
Originally Posted by LBrain 
I'll throw in my two cents.
Early here I found the "Crash Course" I read it, it made sense. I was done. I believe I declared I got my Phd then. I even forget what it stands for. But it doesn't matter. I didn't buy any books or seek out other meetings or anything of the sort.
I knew I would never drink again and never change my mind. Clear and simple - that's it.
As for life skills and coping with reality, that is a different issue. But as long as I never drink again, improving my life became easier and simpler.
Early here I found the "Crash Course" I read it, it made sense. I was done. I believe I declared I got my Phd then. I even forget what it stands for. But it doesn't matter. I didn't buy any books or seek out other meetings or anything of the sort.
I knew I would never drink again and never change my mind. Clear and simple - that's it.
As for life skills and coping with reality, that is a different issue. But as long as I never drink again, improving my life became easier and simpler.
I really like the idea of total and permanent recovery. ... sorry is it called recovery? I have read the crash course. ...and ordered the books. ... I still find I think about wine most days and worry about it. Xx
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Petals
Thoughts don't equal action. Making a BP(RR-ese for committing to permanent abstinence) releases the 'worry'. Using AVRT means recognizing the thought of how 'nice' a glass of wine may seem as a false idea. The lie of the niceness is coming from the part of brain/mind/subconscious that drives the addiction, one need not worry about having the thought, just recognize it for the lie it is and don't act on it. Those thoughts diminish after time by starving the AV out, by announcing that you have taken drinking off the table as an option.
Thoughts don't equal action. Making a BP(RR-ese for committing to permanent abstinence) releases the 'worry'. Using AVRT means recognizing the thought of how 'nice' a glass of wine may seem as a false idea. The lie of the niceness is coming from the part of brain/mind/subconscious that drives the addiction, one need not worry about having the thought, just recognize it for the lie it is and don't act on it. Those thoughts diminish after time by starving the AV out, by announcing that you have taken drinking off the table as an option.
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by freshstart57
This incorrect statement pops up around here all the time, desy, it's not just you. 'No real alcoholic can do XYZ. If they can, it proves they aren't a real alcoholic to start with.' This makes it out that you define the words as you go along to suit your own ideas. That's not how it works. I can make a statement about what a 'real man' can achieve when he sets his mind to it, but that would be equally false and dismissive.
You might consider what you are saying to people who have survived worse hells than your own and prevailed. There are a few right here in this thread.
You might consider what you are saying to people who have survived worse hells than your own and prevailed. There are a few right here in this thread.
the thread is about comparing recovery v aa so if people want to compare then lets compare
time and time again we have threads come up trying to point things out about aa and how they dont work but we never see the same sort of thing about other recovery methods and how they dont work for people it just seems to be aa that people want to try to show doesnt work ?
so if we are going to compare recovery then we have to compare all things about recovery including where we was at the start of the journey
i think it would paint its own picture without me needing to say more really
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Sorry, desy, maybe I jumped ahead. I thought you were suggesting that no real alcoholic can quit drinking by making the decision to do so, and then doing it. If you are, then that is incorrect.
You seemed to be confused about another point, desy. NO ONE on this thread is saying that AA does not work. You however are saying that it is the only thing that works. For real alcoholics. This also is incorrect.
You get to make all the statements you wish, desy, about your own experience. That is useful, helpful and what we do here. You simply can't make statements about others about what they cannot achieve. If you do, it only takes one example to show that statement to be wrong.
You seemed to be confused about another point, desy. NO ONE on this thread is saying that AA does not work. You however are saying that it is the only thing that works. For real alcoholics. This also is incorrect.
You get to make all the statements you wish, desy, about your own experience. That is useful, helpful and what we do here. You simply can't make statements about others about what they cannot achieve. If you do, it only takes one example to show that statement to be wrong.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
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pete...I am not saying AA doesn't work. I'm saying it doesn't work for me.
If I tell you that I recovered 8 years ago without the 12 steps, what would you say to me?
Would you tell me that I wasn't a real alcoholic?
If I tell you that I recovered 8 years ago without the 12 steps, what would you say to me?
Would you tell me that I wasn't a real alcoholic?
Don't Blink
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 342
The term "real alcoholic" really messed me up in the beginning. The first beginning. That and people who talk about "earning a seat." I wanted to die. I hated myself and everything around me and it was because of alcohol. Does anything else really matter? I feel like I'm getting my life together for the first time ever and its because I've quit. Once I start its nearly impossible to stop and if I somehow manage to keep my **** together while drunk on Tuesday, by Friday morning I'm a wreck.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Clinical Symptoms Of Alcoholism
'The term "real alcoholic" really messed me up in the beginning.'
Welcome to the Club.
There's an unfortunate Sub-text to what constitutes being a 'real Alcoholic'. It leads to confusion. IMO, it's an attempt to 'own' the definition. I'm an Admin on 3 other Forums not related to Alcohol, and I see this often-contentious dynamic on those Pages, too.
It goes like this: the many of us who just 'up and quit' can't be Alcoholics because - Circular Logic Warning - we were able to just up and quit using online Support and Self-Help Methods. This I view as the Politics of one-upmanship re: Rehabs and Programs. Those able to quit sans F2F Programs aren't necessarily able to be corralled into Programs, and thus of lesser interest as laudable Success Cases to those trying to define and/or own what 'Alcoholic' means.
To skip all this posturing and definition-based 'Belly Bumping', I think referencing the definition of Alcoholic by the respected Mayo Clinic is well advised. It's Clinical, and refreshingly skips the Politics of Alcoholism.
I especially appreciate that Mayo lists Behaviors; not judgments about Behaviors. Big difference, as one can read - and be misled by - in judgmental Posts here.
Symptoms Of Alcoholism - The Mayo Clinic
-----
Welcome to the Club.
There's an unfortunate Sub-text to what constitutes being a 'real Alcoholic'. It leads to confusion. IMO, it's an attempt to 'own' the definition. I'm an Admin on 3 other Forums not related to Alcohol, and I see this often-contentious dynamic on those Pages, too.
It goes like this: the many of us who just 'up and quit' can't be Alcoholics because - Circular Logic Warning - we were able to just up and quit using online Support and Self-Help Methods. This I view as the Politics of one-upmanship re: Rehabs and Programs. Those able to quit sans F2F Programs aren't necessarily able to be corralled into Programs, and thus of lesser interest as laudable Success Cases to those trying to define and/or own what 'Alcoholic' means.
To skip all this posturing and definition-based 'Belly Bumping', I think referencing the definition of Alcoholic by the respected Mayo Clinic is well advised. It's Clinical, and refreshingly skips the Politics of Alcoholism.
I especially appreciate that Mayo lists Behaviors; not judgments about Behaviors. Big difference, as one can read - and be misled by - in judgmental Posts here.
Symptoms Of Alcoholism - The Mayo Clinic
-----
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Bardo
Posts: 246
Originally Posted by MesaMan
'The term "real alcoholic" really messed me up in the beginning.'
Welcome to the Club.
There's an unfortunate Sub-text to what constitutes being a 'real Alcoholic'. It leads to confusion. IMO, it's an attempt to 'own' the definition. I'm an Admin on 3 other Forums not related to Alcohol, and I see this often-contentious dynamic on those Pages, too.
It goes like this: the many of us who just 'up and quit' can't be Alcoholics because - Circular Logic Warning - we were able to just up and quit using online Support and Self-Help Methods. This I view as the Politics of one-upmanship re: Rehabs and Programs. Those able to quit sans F2F Programs aren't necessarily able to be corralled into Programs, and thus of lesser interest as laudable Success Cases to those trying to define and/or own what 'Alcoholic' means.
To skip all this posturing and definition-based 'Belly Bumping', I think referencing the definition of Alcoholic by the respected Mayo Clinic is well advised. It's Clinical, and refreshingly skips the Politics of Alcoholism.
I especially appreciate that Mayo lists Behaviors; not judgments about Behaviors. Big difference, as one can read - and be misled by - in judgmental Posts here.
Symptoms Of Alcoholism - The Mayo Clinic
-----
Welcome to the Club.
There's an unfortunate Sub-text to what constitutes being a 'real Alcoholic'. It leads to confusion. IMO, it's an attempt to 'own' the definition. I'm an Admin on 3 other Forums not related to Alcohol, and I see this often-contentious dynamic on those Pages, too.
It goes like this: the many of us who just 'up and quit' can't be Alcoholics because - Circular Logic Warning - we were able to just up and quit using online Support and Self-Help Methods. This I view as the Politics of one-upmanship re: Rehabs and Programs. Those able to quit sans F2F Programs aren't necessarily able to be corralled into Programs, and thus of lesser interest as laudable Success Cases to those trying to define and/or own what 'Alcoholic' means.
To skip all this posturing and definition-based 'Belly Bumping', I think referencing the definition of Alcoholic by the respected Mayo Clinic is well advised. It's Clinical, and refreshingly skips the Politics of Alcoholism.
I especially appreciate that Mayo lists Behaviors; not judgments about Behaviors. Big difference, as one can read - and be misled by - in judgmental Posts here.
Symptoms Of Alcoholism - The Mayo Clinic
-----
With that said, the “real alcoholic” argument is an example of the “No True Scotsman” logical fallacy. Arguments from what “better/stronger/less-susceptible-to-being-corralled” people can, or ought to be able to do, are no less silly.
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Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
I cannot tell a lie - or at least I try not to. MM, that Mayo Clinic symptoms thing. I put a check next to EVERY one. I basically quit cold turkey.
petals, I will have a year after Christmas. It will 24 hours when I made the decision to quit a year ago. The night I was removed from my position at my job and sent home.
petals, I will have a year after Christmas. It will 24 hours when I made the decision to quit a year ago. The night I was removed from my position at my job and sent home.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Bardo
Posts: 246
Originally Posted by LBrain
I cannot tell a lie - or at least I try not to. MM, that Mayo Clinic symptoms thing. I put a check next to EVERY one. I basically quit cold turkey.
petals, I will have a year after Christmas. It will 24 hours when I made the decision to quit a year ago. The night I was removed from my position at my job and sent home.
petals, I will have a year after Christmas. It will 24 hours when I made the decision to quit a year ago. The night I was removed from my position at my job and sent home.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
Yea the circular argument gets tiring. If you are a "real" alcoholic you can't quit on your without AA. If you quit on your own without AA you weren't a "real" alcoholic to begin with.
Well whatever I am I just got another year sober on December 14. I must not be a "real" alcoholic. I just don't drink. Ever. Seems to work for me.
Well whatever I am I just got another year sober on December 14. I must not be a "real" alcoholic. I just don't drink. Ever. Seems to work for me.
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
i dont know where people get the idea that aa tells anyone they can not quit on there own ?
i never tell anyone they can not quit on there own or that they need aa to quit and its the only thing that will help them
for me and i am only talking about me its the only thing that helped me and keeps on helping to stay sober 10 years on
i could stop drinking lots of times only to end up picking up the drink again and again
so i dont want to do that anymore and the only thing that helped me and keeps on helping me is aa
i might well pick up the drink again tomorrow but i hope i dont but who knows what goes on tomorrow ? how is your life going to be tomorrow ? anything can change in any moment of time.
i think people read to much into the argument of being a real alcoholic or not, to be honest it never ever bothered me that much but since i have been coming on the site i have come to see that i am an alcoholic as i do hear a lot of different things from other people that shows me how different i am to them.
we only have to compare lifes and what happend etc to see the vast differences and i dont mean to decry anyone
but someone had a problem with drinking a bit to much wine and decided to give it up
now i am so much different that that person and my drinking condition was so much different
is that person a real alcoholic compared to me ? i dont know as it could be in the early stages but it sure as hell is nothing like going out getting hammered drunk time and time again and ending up in police cells or where ever i would end up in and i never ment to get drunk i just only wanted a couple of drinks
so can people see the difference ? or why i would feel different from someone who just had a few to many wine drinks of an evening but never got drunk or did anything wrong really ?
like i say i dont want to decry anyone of the problem but how else can anyone try to show the differences
or do people believe everyone is an alcoholic who drinks to much ?
when it comes to giving up drink when your a 24 / 7 dependent drunk believe me there is difference. we are not all the same
or thats my take on it
i never tell anyone they can not quit on there own or that they need aa to quit and its the only thing that will help them
for me and i am only talking about me its the only thing that helped me and keeps on helping to stay sober 10 years on
i could stop drinking lots of times only to end up picking up the drink again and again
so i dont want to do that anymore and the only thing that helped me and keeps on helping me is aa
i might well pick up the drink again tomorrow but i hope i dont but who knows what goes on tomorrow ? how is your life going to be tomorrow ? anything can change in any moment of time.
i think people read to much into the argument of being a real alcoholic or not, to be honest it never ever bothered me that much but since i have been coming on the site i have come to see that i am an alcoholic as i do hear a lot of different things from other people that shows me how different i am to them.
we only have to compare lifes and what happend etc to see the vast differences and i dont mean to decry anyone
but someone had a problem with drinking a bit to much wine and decided to give it up
now i am so much different that that person and my drinking condition was so much different
is that person a real alcoholic compared to me ? i dont know as it could be in the early stages but it sure as hell is nothing like going out getting hammered drunk time and time again and ending up in police cells or where ever i would end up in and i never ment to get drunk i just only wanted a couple of drinks
so can people see the difference ? or why i would feel different from someone who just had a few to many wine drinks of an evening but never got drunk or did anything wrong really ?
like i say i dont want to decry anyone of the problem but how else can anyone try to show the differences
or do people believe everyone is an alcoholic who drinks to much ?
when it comes to giving up drink when your a 24 / 7 dependent drunk believe me there is difference. we are not all the same
or thats my take on it
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Join Date: Jan 2014
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Originally Posted by ru12
Yea the circular argument gets tiring. If you are a "real" alcoholic you can't quit on your without AA. If you quit on your own without AA you weren't a "real" alcoholic to begin with.
Well whatever I am I just got another year sober on December 14. I must not be a "real" alcoholic. I just don't drink. Ever. Seems to work for me.
Well whatever I am I just got another year sober on December 14. I must not be a "real" alcoholic. I just don't drink. Ever. Seems to work for me.
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Location: Miami, FL
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Originally Posted by desypete
i dont know where people get the idea that aa tells anyone they can not quit on there own ?
i never tell anyone they can not quit on there own or that they need aa to quit and its the only thing that will help them
f
i never tell anyone they can not quit on there own or that they need aa to quit and its the only thing that will help them
f
The real alcoholic thing, is I think an understandable rationalization. It can feel terrible not to be able to help someone oneself. but see someone else can.
Because AA is so decentralized, anything said by a member is attributed to the organization as a whole. But this can make for a discounting of the experience of others. I know I have described experience with AA and have had people say, "That's not AA." Well, my sponsors would say that it is. And that much of what is said here is not really AA.
In the end, we can all describe the AA we know personally, but I do not know that anyone can describe the program as a whole...because there is no "program as a whole." (Which is why I think the organization has survived. It is adaptable.)
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Originally Posted by miamifella
It may be different in the UK, but this is often said in the US. In fact, I have seen it said on this site.
The real alcoholic thing, is I think an understandable rationalization. It can feel terrible not to be able to help someone oneself. but see someone else can.
Because AA is so decentralized, anything said by a member is attributed to the organization as a whole. But this can make for a discounting of the experience of others. I know I have described experience with AA and have had people say, "That's not AA." Well, my sponsors would say that it is. And that much of what is said here is not really AA.
In the end, we can all describe the AA we know personally, but I do not know that anyone can describe the program as a whole...because there is no "program as a whole." (Which is why I think the organization has survived. It is adaptable.)
The real alcoholic thing, is I think an understandable rationalization. It can feel terrible not to be able to help someone oneself. but see someone else can.
Because AA is so decentralized, anything said by a member is attributed to the organization as a whole. But this can make for a discounting of the experience of others. I know I have described experience with AA and have had people say, "That's not AA." Well, my sponsors would say that it is. And that much of what is said here is not really AA.
In the end, we can all describe the AA we know personally, but I do not know that anyone can describe the program as a whole...because there is no "program as a whole." (Which is why I think the organization has survived. It is adaptable.)
There are different meeting groups that have different group personalities as well, some of them both dogmatic (with regard to their understanding of “the only right AA way”) and “evangelical”, for lack of a better word. I literally fled from one such group. I’m fortunate now, in that my home group is very diverse, in a very diverse community, and there really isn’t this kind of cr*p (maybe with a few individuals, but if so, I think they must keep pretty quiet because it is so against the general tenor of “welcome diversity”).
Anyway, to repeat my position: I use AA—and I think that all this “our way, or you’re not [insert appropriate terms]” is all unhelpful cr*p.
Be well all.
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