desypete

like i said it wouldnt of worked for me as i am an alcoholic and i drank everything away i had no computer or internet etc so how could if of helped me ?

do they have meetings ? do they go into prisons and help people in there with there drink problem ? do they go around hospitals trying to help people out there ?

these are the things i need to hear being compared about, salvation army is another brilliant organization that help those in need and they get there hands dirty

i am just so proud of what aa does all from people who give there time free

that is something very special in this world i think

soberlicious

I agree, fresh. I would also add that an urge is nothing to fear. The urge (thought, desire etc) is simply what it is. An urge requires no action.

A whole separate issue for me too and I keep it that way on purpose. If my remaining abstinent depends on me being spiritually fit, or having hobbies, or good coping skills, or a support system, or anything else... then I set myself up for future drinking because if any of those conditions change for any reason, then that means my abstinence could change too. I prefer having my abstinence stand alone. That way even if my life goes to hell in a handbasket (which it does at times), I still remain abstinent, and still have a continued shot at a great life in whatever ways I seek that.

AVRT doesn't claim to do that, pete. It's not a design for living.

You would need to have a real understanding of the principles of both methods in order to effectively do that. Personally, I find the paradigms so fundamentally different that it's like apples and oranges. In terms of any method being better than any other method, well that can only be answered by each individual.

FeenixxRising

You're splitting hairs IMO Pete. I don't know about the UK, but in the States, just about anyone who can make it to an AA meeting can also gain access to the internet for 15 to 30 minutes through a friend, acquaintance or at the local library, and that's all it takes to read the AVRT crash course.

I'm not advocating one method over the other, but your argument that AVRT is beyond the reach of low-bottom alcoholics and addicts isn't a strong one. However, as you correctly pointed out, AA is more ubiquitous and easier to find and use. However, there are a number of reasons for that. For one, almost all substance abusers who comes in contact with someone in the healthcare/social services bureaucracy will be directed towards AA or NA. And while not coming directly from AA, this is promotion of AA and the 12-Steps. Few, if any, Dr's, social works, mental health clinics etc. are directing anyone to Rational Recover and the AVRT technique. Although, it would be quite easy to share that information with substance abusers.

soberlicious

Discussing the merits of other methods does not in any way diminish those individuals who give to others in service. There are many programs/agencies which address the problems that can come as a result of addiction (loss of employment, domestic violence, homelessness) That kind of social service is not exclusive to the fellowship. You would have no way of knowing how many individuals quit via an alternative method to AA, who go on to "get their hands dirty" helping others, would you?

freshstart57

desypete, you are absolutely right, AVRT is not like AA in the ways you described. There is no outreach to those in hospitals or prisons, no charitable acts like the Salvation Army, The Bridge, Newman, Hillel, Order of St Felix and so on. These are more like each other than AVRT.

They really have different purposes in many ways. Maybe the lack of appreciation of this difference is what leads to misunderstandings.

Kensho

That's the bottom line - and no need to defend that, do apologetics, or critique what works for someone else. Open discussion of perceived alternatives can, however, be helpful for many.

mfanch

1. Get a plan.
2. Follow the plan.

I don't know that method even matters. Each must forge his own way. It seems to me that the second part is where we fail. I would not use up too much time in analysis paralysis.

SoberCAH

You raised a good inquiry which is not at all offensive.

I went through treatment and they taught me to participate in AA, which I have done now for a little over 26 years.

I respect anything which works for anyone.

sugarbear1

different ways of getting to the same goal of abstinence from drinking/using

trachemys

And just to add something else: GOD can be a Gathering Of Drunks is necessary.

BackToSquareOne

The most important thing is wanting to quit more than you want to drink, if you reach that point you probably don't even need a program. I failed at everything until I really wanted to quit, the odd thing about going to meetings is they made me think more about drinking than not drinking. I know that sounds strange but they made me feel like I was depriving myself of something I really wanted to do.

trachemys

"if necessary"

Sorry.

Johnston

I found AA very helpful getting sober because it provided face to face contact with others who shared the same goal. Now I just stay busy doing productive things, and when the addictive voice rears it's head I say no thanks. Still hit a meeting once a month or so though.

desypete

this is my understanding of what its like to be an alcoholic as you will see the drinking is just a side issue
learning how to change is the what i have had to do and still keep on trying to do
my problem is that i have been all about me, what i think, what i feel, what i need, and if i didnt get my own way i would drink on it but i would go to any lengths to get my own way such is the stubon streak i have in me

i am around people who are so like me there alcoholics as well and by them being honest about how they really are in the world how they treat there partners, how they treated people how they would dominate everything to get there own way and this is sober living i am talking about
i came to see i was just like them

i had to change how i live sober if i was ever going to have a chance to not run off and pick up that first drink as soon as poor me had a problem to deal with or poor me didnt get his own way

hence i know i am an alcoholic with the alcoholism personality the ism stands for I, self, me

as its all about me sober or drunk

hence i know a lot of people are not really alcoholic or if they are there in denial about how they really are as a sober person

it really is such a deep problem that goes right to the core for someone like me

if your only problem is you drink a bit to much wine and you find giving it up a bit of a problem it doesn't mean your an alcoholic just because its drink related. this is where the confusing comes into it and people judge if there an alcoholic or not just by the drinking

in the end i came to see it really wasnt about drinking although it was my main problem i came to aa for help with

i didnt know any of how it would make me look at me as a sober person and show me all my bad sides and show me that i can change if i start doing good in the world i can learn new habbits that will stick

trachemys

yep

Dee74

I'm glad you found your way to recover, desypete.


I found my way too, and even tho I completely identify with the type of alcoholic you are, my way to recovery wasn't the same way.

I think we're blessed to have so many options.
D

desypete

i have been fasinated by how your early recover was dee, as i have seen many posts from you and the wisdom you have at times is just like someone who has been around aa a long time

you are well up on yourself which is something i have only seen in aa were people have to face themselves and come to see there true person

i get mixed messages at times with the online thing as it paints mental pictures
like the chap who says he made his mind up to not drink again

i want to ask him what did the drink do to him, what did he lose, how low did he go ?
the only reason i think that is because i know many years ago i could of made my mind up and i did for 15 years

but even with all those years of being sober i still drank again

but then when i first gave up in my early 20s i was nothing like i ended up

so i gave up it was easy compared to how hard it was all those years later and my drinking had progressed to daily 24 /7 drunkness

in my 20s i was just a weekend drinker who got drunk and did bad things at times and would suffer from guilt and shame and remorse the next day

so it was easy for me to just give up drinking at the weekends although it was a bit tuff at first but i was no way like the other alchoilcs who had lost so much and there drinking had taken them down like it had

however they did warn me and told me if i am like them then i to would end up like them if i dont do something now about my drinking and how true that was


but i think if people want to compere recovery then we should also compare at what level are drinking problem really is ?

as we are not all the same at the same level hence different things can work for different people

dont know if i am making any sense here ?
i am not trying to knock other recovery methods but more trying to highlight there are huge differences in the conditions of people

Dee74

I'm too old and too cagey to get into a real alcoholic argument Desy

Whatever type of drinker you are, and whatever type of personality you have, there's a multitude of choices for you when it comes to recovery..I think that's a good thing



I had to read this twice, desy

D

freshstart57

This incorrect statement pops up around here all the time, desy, it's not just you. 'No real alcoholic can do XYZ. If they can, it proves they aren't a real alcoholic to start with.' This makes it out that you define the words as you go along to suit your own ideas. That's not how it works. I can make a statement about what a 'real man' can achieve when he sets his mind to it, but that would be equally false and dismissive.

You might consider what you are saying to people who have survived worse hells than your own and prevailed. There are a few right here in this thread.

Kensho

I'm in AA. I applaud those who keep sobriety following other programs or pathways - and the methods that work for them.

And I really don't give two fifths of five eighths of eff-all what a "true alcoholic" is - or how a "better man" (or woman) than I am would gain sobriety.

Exchange of information and ideas can be helpful. Ideology and bad logic ("no true Scotsman" fallacies) are not.