Tamerua

I think that different things work for different people. I had tried RR for alcohol and binge eating to now avail, for whatever reason. AA works for me for now, who knows about the future. Stick with whatever you are most comfortable with.

tomsteve

I've been sitting here thinking about the title of the thread:
Rational recovery vs AA.
In a way I'm laughing as I think when does the final score come in so we know who wins????

But in reality, ANYONE who works and lives EITHER method wins by staying sober and the reward is life.

walkbeformakrun

If you don't believe in a higher power, AA is not an option. If AA is not an option and you want to quit, you have to at least consider the other methods out there. Even if AA is an option, it does not hurt to look at all the methods and use what works for you.

Zencat

The "out-think" part would be called brain plasticity. I can retrain my brain. Sounds fantastic I know. No HP or God involved for me. I like AVRT, CBT, DBT and any other healthy living skills that I can incorporate in daily living.

freshstart57

While the two approaches to sobriety share a few similarities, there are great differences too. Just to clear one of those up here, AVRT is not a program, it's a tool to achieve a permanent and unconditional state of abstinence from alcohol. This is something people can achieve over a short period of time, a number of minutes or hours, as choosing abstinence for a lifetime is an event, not a program.

What you do after that is up to you, but it is outside of Rational Recovery.

jazzfish

No matter how many different approaches and tools come to exist, there will always be one common factor among them all toward achieving sobriety: don't drink.

Hollyanne

Why the choice?
Never understand this argument.
Like religion.
Politics.
Throw everything at it.
Whatever floats your boat.
Just don't drink.
And mind the loonies.
They are everywhere.
Keep in by the wall and mind the buses. (just wanted to throw that in coz it's funny)

Kensho

I suppose there are folks in different programs and pathways to sobriety that become somewhat dogmatic about what has worked for them. I go to AA; my sponsor is àn atheist; my "higher power" is non-theistic; and the group is very diverse--and I haven't heard any dogmatism yet. I am working my own program within the context of AA.

But I am sure that other ways work better for other people. Whatever you find that works--and if combining works, then that works.

Be well.

soberlicious

Well, I don't think there is a need for argument, per se, but there are some very important basic tenets of each approach that are in direct opposition to one another . It is important for people to understand this. Not a good thing, not a bad thing, but it is a real thing. I guess I can be carnivorous vegetarian, or a God-fearing atheist, but in some cases I have to choose if I really want to stay true to any given principle, or apply a principle in it's pure form to determine it's efficacy. That is not to say there are not elements that cannot be plucked out and applied...there are, but the two methods as wholes have some fundamental differences that would make practicing both simultaneously, as written, quite a challenging task.

erin8

I'm starting to see the similarities between the two. I think AA leads people up to being receptive to what avrt has taught me. I could be wrong, I'm new to both, but listening to people speak in AA today about "surrendering" made me think that is exactly what I've done with AVRT. I've surrendered. I'd appreciate some feedback from those of you familiar with both.

dwtbd

What are your plans about future alcohol use ?

Carlotta

I think the big commonality is acceptance. Knowing that one can never drink safely again and is abstinent for life.
Accepting that it is what it is and being ok with it.
The one day at a time thing is used as a tool for newcomers to AA (and not everyone uses it and count days btw) but anyone with some good time is truly committed to lifelong abstinence.
I go to AA but I also have used AVRT. I really like the idea of the "beast" and I also think that learning to recognize the AV for what it is and depersonalizing it is a great tool which I wish was taught to newcomers in AA to help them through the humps and bumps of the first few months.
Even now, I do use AVRT to check on my spiritual condition (I know it sounds weird and I can see purists from both sides getting ready to tar and feather me LOL).
When I feel a bit restless and cranky, I check for beast activity by looking in the mirror and saying aloud:
I am abstinent for life, I will never drink again and this is non negotiable.
If I feel some anxiety or some stirring inside, then I know I have to do some step work because obviously I am not in a state of acceptance and the beast is acting up.

This is my personal take on it based on my experience. Others' will probably vary wildly which is cool: diversity is the spice of life

freshstart57

AVRT does not advise that one cannot drink in safety, nor does it require a claim of powerlessness over alcohol and inability to quit as a step to sobriety. On the contrary, it suggests that we may choose to drink, and if we understand that it is a bad thing for us to do, that we may choose to quit. It provides a means to make that choice and make it in such a way that it becomes permanent and unconditional.

One's spiritual health is important, but AVRT says that if wish to improve it, one would best do it from a position of permanent abstinence. Just like any other aspect of self improvement, it ain't going to happen while drinking. How you choose to improve yourself is up to you.

The urge to drink is not seen as a sign of poor health, spiritual or otherwise. The drinking urge is an aspect of pleasure seeking activity that has been incorporated into our survival drive through repeated exposure to intoxication. It is a normal healthy drive that has gone awry, but just like other drives we have that can cause us problems, we can place this drive under conscious awareness. Once that is done, the AV can be accepted without any need to appease it or fight it. Whatever urges or thoughts we might have around alcohol, they become irrelevant to behavior through identification as 'ego alien'. These thoughts come and go, but we remain sober.

This is intended to provide some background to this CBT type tool, clear up some misconceptions, and maybe even spark some interest.

FeenixxRising

As soberlicious and Freshstart have pointed out, there are some very important differences between AA's 12-Steps and AVRT. I won't rehash what they've written; however, I urge anyone interested in either the 12-Steps or AVRT to read their posts carefully. As was mentioned by soberlicious, there are a number of basic tenets of each method that are in direct opposition to each other.

Personally, I don't believe that the AVRT method in its purest form (which I use) can be effectively coupled with AA or any other recovery method. AVRT is in a class of its own and is diametrically opposed to almost all the popular recovery methods--both spiritual and secular.

To be clear, I'm not hyping one method over the other, but it's important to be clear what each method involves.

LBrain

I'll throw in my two cents.

Early here I found the "Crash Course" I read it, it made sense. I was done. I believe I declared I got my Phd then. I even forget what it stands for. But it doesn't matter. I didn't buy any books or seek out other meetings or anything of the sort.

I knew I would never drink again and never change my mind. Clear and simple - that's it.
As for life skills and coping with reality, that is a different issue. But as long as I never drink again, improving my life became easier and simpler.

Soberpotamus

I just went through the crash course for the second time. It's nice and short and to the point

Dusting off my RR book to read again as well.

freshstart57

PhD is 'Phormer Drunk'. Well done, LBrain.

desypete

i dont know anything really about the avrt thing
were do they hold meetings ? can it help people who have no money or home etc or do you need a computer to be able to have its help ?

for me aa ticks all the right boxes simply because it offers free 24 / 7 support by people who give up there time to help others, it provides meetings world wide that are free to anyone who can come in off the streets you dont need anything to get started other than a desire to stop drinking

so i dont see how avrt could of helped me get sober in the mess i was in with the drinking i think it might be a good thing for people who havent ended up with nothing

if you still have a job and money and home etc then the sky is the limit out there with all sorts of help that may or may not work for people.

but i can never forget the day i walked into an aa room flat broke, no food, etc and the people in aa helped me not by preaching or telling me to pray for food etc
they gave me food, they gave me some money, they came and kept me company something i know i would of drank on if people hadnt of gone that extra mile to just give me there time

i dont honestly believe there is anything in the world that can touch aa with how they help people who have nothing and guide them back to living a sober life

i have a job now i have money now, i have my kids, i have a home

that is all down to me going to an aa meeting and getting the help i got

if avrt can do the same thing for people then i would take my hat off to it and any other organization out there that would be doing that much to help others

i am not interested in people words as such its all about showing me with actions that how i learned to do things myself in aa as i was shown by others actions compared to my own inaction

so if people want to compare there recovery method v aa then by all means lets compare

trachemys

desy, we each do whatever works

dwtbd

Desypete
Addictive Voice Recognition Techique, there is a lot of information about it (AVRT)and Rational Recovery on the internet, and some threads right here at SR in the secular forum.

I was introduced to their ideas on this site the first time here, and I have been sober since.