Diary of a Mad Cow, Part VIII: "When on Fire, Save what of Value"
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courage2 (is there a courage, a courage1 and then...?)
nono, i didn't see your post as glamorizing anything. and it's great you have found ways to restore balance when it teeters.
it took me about four sober years to understand that drinking HAD, in fact, been my solution and that i now needed another one.
so, in a way, i can't entirely agree that alcohol never solved anything. it "solved" the problem of finding a real, good, positive solution for living. solved it by being the stopgap so i didn't need to find a REAL one.
your quote Where does a person acquire value? is what i've been thinking about, too, and the trite-sounding answer is two-fold, for me: one, intrinsically we either have it or not just by being a living being with some kind of spirit, and two: by doing something of value.
so Dee's "purpose", i think, fits in there.
do i find "meaning" or do i "make" meaning by doing something meaningful?
those sorts of things.
going off topic slightly.
as usual.
nono, i didn't see your post as glamorizing anything. and it's great you have found ways to restore balance when it teeters.
it took me about four sober years to understand that drinking HAD, in fact, been my solution and that i now needed another one.
so, in a way, i can't entirely agree that alcohol never solved anything. it "solved" the problem of finding a real, good, positive solution for living. solved it by being the stopgap so i didn't need to find a REAL one.
your quote Where does a person acquire value? is what i've been thinking about, too, and the trite-sounding answer is two-fold, for me: one, intrinsically we either have it or not just by being a living being with some kind of spirit, and two: by doing something of value.
so Dee's "purpose", i think, fits in there.
do i find "meaning" or do i "make" meaning by doing something meaningful?
those sorts of things.
going off topic slightly.
as usual.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
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I agree with Fini, about human value... I see it as two-fold... first, intrinsic or inherent, by virtue of simply "being" here and being alive. As well as the value in defined meaning, for myself. Meaning and purpose (or porpoise, lol) in the here and now. What means something to/for me? I am the one who alone must answer that question. We each do, for ourselves.
One observation... lately, my purpose and meaning has shifted away from "doing" to "being." Not entirely of course. But there's a shift there for me toward the being side. There's also acceptance of my limitations. I might've been offended personally by that statement a few years ago. But I think it's based in reality. And the recognition that my time is indeed limited. There's only so much I can "do" so my "being" then takes on more significance.
One observation... lately, my purpose and meaning has shifted away from "doing" to "being." Not entirely of course. But there's a shift there for me toward the being side. There's also acceptance of my limitations. I might've been offended personally by that statement a few years ago. But I think it's based in reality. And the recognition that my time is indeed limited. There's only so much I can "do" so my "being" then takes on more significance.
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Originally Posted by fini 
so, in a way, i can't entirely agree that alcohol never solved anything. it "solved" the problem of finding a real, good, positive solution for living. solved it by being the stopgap so i didn't need to find a REAL one.
Originally Posted by SoberJennie
intrinsic or inherent, by virtue of simply "being" here and being alive. As well as the value in defined meaning, for myself. Meaning and purpose (or porpoise, lol) in the here and now. What means something to/for me? I am the one who alone must answer that question. We each do, for ourselves.
One observation... lately, my purpose and meaning has shifted away from "doing" to "being."
One observation... lately, my purpose and meaning has shifted away from "doing" to "being."
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Another thought on intrinsic value... if I feel I have intrinsic value, I've deemed myself of value, correct? I've assigned value to myself. Though we'd define intrinsic as something or some sort of quality arising from the thing itself, as a thing unto itself... inherent value. But for those of us who don't value ourselves so much... is it only a perspective difference? A subjective valuation? Or, are we mistaken in recognizing the value?
Could there be a fallacy of intrinsic value? Hmm.
Anyway... maybe it's that we humans choose to believe we have value because we are alive and breathing. It's rather amazing we are alive, right? If you know the odds of how life came about and all that, and if you read the science of how the elements got thrown together, the chance, the likelihood of it happening...
I tend to think that humans making art is our way of understanding intrinsic value and making sense of it all. Are we all that important? Why bother to give birth, painful birth, to the ideas inside our heads... in the form of art?
I dunno. I'm slightly optimistic.
Could there be a fallacy of intrinsic value? Hmm.
Anyway... maybe it's that we humans choose to believe we have value because we are alive and breathing. It's rather amazing we are alive, right? If you know the odds of how life came about and all that, and if you read the science of how the elements got thrown together, the chance, the likelihood of it happening...
I tend to think that humans making art is our way of understanding intrinsic value and making sense of it all. Are we all that important? Why bother to give birth, painful birth, to the ideas inside our heads... in the form of art?
I dunno. I'm slightly optimistic.
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Hmmm. SJ --
For me, the value of art is in the individual's engagement with it. The work itself is only ancillary to that. Which is why you can perceive great beauty in a cheesy pop song. Some works have qualities that make them accessible to the engagement of many people over a long period of time; they become "classics." Some works of art are meaningful to me, because of my personal history with them, like a longterm conversation between me and the work. A work is only meaningful when and if dialogue with it happens.
Part of what makes a classic engaging to so many is the tradition and lore and associations that accumulate around it. After a while, I'd say it becomes a 3-way conversation: the audience, the work itself (which I can't say I ever really grasp, my interpretation is so distant from the intent and purposes and context that created it), and the tradition.
For me, the value of art is in the individual's engagement with it. The work itself is only ancillary to that. Which is why you can perceive great beauty in a cheesy pop song. Some works have qualities that make them accessible to the engagement of many people over a long period of time; they become "classics." Some works of art are meaningful to me, because of my personal history with them, like a longterm conversation between me and the work. A work is only meaningful when and if dialogue with it happens.
Part of what makes a classic engaging to so many is the tradition and lore and associations that accumulate around it. After a while, I'd say it becomes a 3-way conversation: the audience, the work itself (which I can't say I ever really grasp, my interpretation is so distant from the intent and purposes and context that created it), and the tradition.
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I've said here before that I can't fathom the idea of inherent meaning. So for me, meaning must be made, not found.
If you follow that down the rabbit hole none of us may exist at all
D
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Ok... so before Vivian Maier's work was discovered, were the undeveloped film intrinsically valuable? Potentially valuable?
There must be engagement between the viewer and the art object, ok. I agree.
So we pay thousands of dollars for an art object which has ancillary value. I must engage with it for it to have real value.
Alright, so Courage, would you consider your engagement with the art object to be a moment of value where two things without any real, intrinsic value coalesce into some sort of transitory value then?
There must be engagement between the viewer and the art object, ok. I agree.
So we pay thousands of dollars for an art object which has ancillary value. I must engage with it for it to have real value.
Alright, so Courage, would you consider your engagement with the art object to be a moment of value where two things without any real, intrinsic value coalesce into some sort of transitory value then?
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Originally Posted by SoberJennie
Alright, so Courage, would you consider your engagement with the art object to be a moment of value where two things without any real, intrinsic value coalesce into some sort of transitory value then?
Marchia in Aeternum
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by courage2
LOL bblue -- it's not like I sit around thinking about this stuff -- this all probably gelled in me 30 years ago, and I haven't had a new thought since
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Originally Posted by trachemys
Which of those three statements is most painful, cou?
How are you folks?
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Originally Posted by Leshar
Apologies to all if this bothers. I think booze was actually keeping me going, with some drive, now there's nothing, nothing.
I don't know a lot about Hitchens, but I'm a big fan of Sam Harris.
Woe is Moo.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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How you doing Guinea Pig? You still down in the hole?
I think Sam Harris on Bill Maher show other week. They get in fight with Ben Affleck. Was like two intellectual giants arguing with nervous toddler, almost hard to watch.
I think Sam Harris on Bill Maher show other week. They get in fight with Ben Affleck. Was like two intellectual giants arguing with nervous toddler, almost hard to watch.
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