How do you define powerlessness?
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NC
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The longer I stay sober, the more my understanding of "powerless" evolves.
I believe the cornerstone of addiction is delusion: "a persistent false belief maintained despite ample evidence to the contrary." Powerless is just that: NO power. I think the thought that someday we can return to the early (i.e. enjoyable & without negative consequences) state of our drinking persists for a lot of us. It's not necessarily something we explicitly think, more of a vague hope for sometime down the road.
My hat's off to anyone who can control their drinking once they start. My history is sufficient proof to me that I was not able to do that. I have gone to enough funerals for people with similar histories who had that next drink to convince me that at some point along the way, people with "drinking problems" cross a threshold physiologically and can never again drink with any hope of control. I am not willing to bet my life where I am in relation to that threshold.
This is not a philosophical exercise on my part. I removed my mother from life support because of the damage alcohol had done to her. Despite that experience, I continued to drink very much like she did for another ten years. If someone else has sufficient perspective and intellect to out-think their addiction, great. For me, I can accept that I am powerless and simply move on with my life.
I believe the cornerstone of addiction is delusion: "a persistent false belief maintained despite ample evidence to the contrary." Powerless is just that: NO power. I think the thought that someday we can return to the early (i.e. enjoyable & without negative consequences) state of our drinking persists for a lot of us. It's not necessarily something we explicitly think, more of a vague hope for sometime down the road.
My hat's off to anyone who can control their drinking once they start. My history is sufficient proof to me that I was not able to do that. I have gone to enough funerals for people with similar histories who had that next drink to convince me that at some point along the way, people with "drinking problems" cross a threshold physiologically and can never again drink with any hope of control. I am not willing to bet my life where I am in relation to that threshold.
This is not a philosophical exercise on my part. I removed my mother from life support because of the damage alcohol had done to her. Despite that experience, I continued to drink very much like she did for another ten years. If someone else has sufficient perspective and intellect to out-think their addiction, great. For me, I can accept that I am powerless and simply move on with my life.
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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Some say insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results
There are those who know true insanity is doing the same thing over and over again amidst the despair that the results will never change
and not being able to stop
There are those who know true insanity is doing the same thing over and over again amidst the despair that the results will never change
and not being able to stop
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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I love the idea (and feeling) of surrender. It does not mean defeat to me. Because of meditation and martial arts/aikido, I think of surrender as accepting what is and what will be. I think we can influence things, but there is much that we do not control absolutely.
I am less comfortable with powerlessness, but my comfort with surrender helps me understand the potential benefits of the concept of powerlessness. From the powerlessness perspective, I can see how I am powerless over having the addiction. However, I think I can choose to not drink. I could often even choose to stop after one or two drinks, if there was sufficient motivation. But I have very strong obsessions and compulsions to drink, which get much worse if I have drank recently. The compulsion is so strong that I can see how people could feel a similar compulsion and call it powerlessness.
I rarely go to AA, but when I do I just substitute my love of surrender for the concept of powerlessness. I am guessing that what I mean by surrender many people in AA mean by powerlessness. I think we just use different words to describe very similar concepts.
I am less comfortable with powerlessness, but my comfort with surrender helps me understand the potential benefits of the concept of powerlessness. From the powerlessness perspective, I can see how I am powerless over having the addiction. However, I think I can choose to not drink. I could often even choose to stop after one or two drinks, if there was sufficient motivation. But I have very strong obsessions and compulsions to drink, which get much worse if I have drank recently. The compulsion is so strong that I can see how people could feel a similar compulsion and call it powerlessness.
I rarely go to AA, but when I do I just substitute my love of surrender for the concept of powerlessness. I am guessing that what I mean by surrender many people in AA mean by powerlessness. I think we just use different words to describe very similar concepts.
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 
Thank you, Fini, that was a thoughtful and well written post as always. Some of the things we say, you and I, are the same. My salvation came through acceptance, and I think you might agree that your experience was similar. I was an out of control drunk for a decade, at least, but once that acceptance occurred, the choice and control aspect became manifest for me. Of course, my addiction propelled me to the liquor store, but at the moment of truth, I chose to believe in my agency, whether I had any of that stuff or not. Maybe I didn't have any control at all, I just imagined it, and took it from there.
I understand that we each of us occupy our designated spot on the continuum of the control locus, and that not all of us have that belief in control over that first drink. But some posters in this thread do. I wish them in particular, and all the rest of us too, an end to addiction and a life with a full measure of peace, beauty and joy.
I understand that we each of us occupy our designated spot on the continuum of the control locus, and that not all of us have that belief in control over that first drink. But some posters in this thread do. I wish them in particular, and all the rest of us too, an end to addiction and a life with a full measure of peace, beauty and joy.
yes, we can sound similar in places. and because i spent a long time in the "thought-set" that you inhabit, i can see where you're coming from. i came from there for ages. it's just that ...well, i couldn't make it work with staying quit that way. it all made total sense, but it didn't work. that was where the desperation kept escalating. it SHOULD have worked, i SHOULD have been able to MAKE it work that way. but i was not.
hm...to hear you talk of years of out-of-control drinking is interesting , of course
. i wonder...did you THINK you had no control, or were you not trying to control or...because you're clear that once you knew-believed you had the control, you quit and stayed that way. how was it BEFORE you believed this?
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...and if anyone ever asked if I quit for the time being, or forever, I'd say say forever. I never plan to drink again, and I highly doubt I ever will. I can't bring myself to say never however, because with all my heart and soul I believe that to be BS........If a newcomer ever said to me he/she couldn't grasp the one day at a time thing, and felt more comfortable saying "I quit forever", I'd say, "awesome"!
thanks for this, Joe.
it's something i grappled with . i knew i had to quit forever. i knew that for me to say it was just for today would solely serve to keep the idea that i could and likely would drink tomorrow.
what i mean is that i had to be sure that forever was /is what i want. if i didn't intend that, then i concluded i intended to drink again at some point in the future. it's just the way my mind works.
the actual doing of sobriety is in the moment, of course. today only. and i have no absolutes for tommorrow. i can't. reason and my own experience tell me differently.
i appreciate that you mention this part because an occasional mentioning it when i was simply sharing that i'd needed to be clear on wanting and intending the forever-thing has closed down the faces around me and now i don't say it anymore. ever. it's a shame, really, when closed faces result in me shutting up about something that was/is important to me. the balancing of speraking my truth vs wanting to belong/not stick out...tough for me.
thanks for this, Joe.
it's something i grappled with . i knew i had to quit forever. i knew that for me to say it was just for today would solely serve to keep the idea that i could and likely would drink tomorrow.
what i mean is that i had to be sure that forever was /is what i want. if i didn't intend that, then i concluded i intended to drink again at some point in the future. it's just the way my mind works.
the actual doing of sobriety is in the moment, of course. today only. and i have no absolutes for tommorrow. i can't. reason and my own experience tell me differently.
i appreciate that you mention this part because an occasional mentioning it when i was simply sharing that i'd needed to be clear on wanting and intending the forever-thing has closed down the faces around me and now i don't say it anymore. ever. it's a shame, really, when closed faces result in me shutting up about something that was/is important to me. the balancing of speraking my truth vs wanting to belong/not stick out...tough for me.
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A thoughtful reply, Joe, well said and a pleasure to read. I'll try to reply in the same fashion.
A black and white thing, I can't bring myself to say never, it's like saying I'll never have an accident.
I believe I have control over my actions, and this means I do have control over my actions. It is only by losing that belief that I cede control to some aspect of myself that is not voluntary. My actions happen only in the present, and I have made a covenant with myself, that I will never now drink. That covers it pretty much for me until the end of time. Forever.
When I quit, the idea of never drinking again had the same impact to me of stopping drinking, or quitting drinking, they each have the same degree of finality and permanence to my mind, as quitting for today is not quitting. And when I decided to quit forever, it took away any wiggle room for my addiction. I took that option away for good. The happy by product of that was an indescribable sense of relief that my drinking was over and done with. I never had to feel that anguish ever again.
Lots of stuff I've seen in other posts gives me the impression that you believe we're all (AAers/12 steppers) terribly misguided. Do you flat out believe that you're right, and we're wrong?
No.
You state in your first post, "There is nothing wrong with my thinking, nothing wrong with my ego, either." I get the feeling that that's fueled by the fact that in the 12 steps we search out our character defects and work towards having them healed.
That's partly correct. I take issue with the contention that, as an addict, my will and ego must be transformed to be in keeping with a plan to be revealed through prayer and with the guidance of another addict in order for me to recover. I did not drink because of a character defect, but because of the great pleasure it gave me, at least at first.
Do you believe you can in no way ever become a better human being than the one you presently are? Not saying you're not a good, decent human being. But wondering if you believe you're flawless and have no desire or need to grow?
Oh heavens, of course I have many faults, and I am so far from perfection I can just barely make it out on the horizon. But, and this is a big but for me, these opportunities for personal growth had nothing to do with the cause of my drinking. They certainly became impossible to pursue while in active addiction however. For me, sobriety came first, permanent, planned and unconditional. Then, and only then, could I begin to pursue those opportunities for personal growth. For me to believe that I was defective, and that I must repair that defect in order to become sober was and is a non-starter. If it didn't cause my drinking, how would removing it correct it? And what if I failed to correct this defect of character? What if I failed to correct it enough? What would I do if I somehow went back to drinking? What would I do then? I just could not see my way through this, and to my mind, that is a must have.
As for how I quit, I decided I could choose not to drink in this present moment, and when the urges to drink came, I brought my focus back to the present, that present moment when I could choose not to drink. As for the idea of drinking again, I compared it to my experience a long time ago with an old GF who lied, and cheated, and stole, made me feel miserable and ashamed. Hey, just like vodka. I cut off all contact with her, scorched earth policy in effect. I would never have anything to do with her ever again, and if she were ever to have appeared at my door, I would have smiled, turned away, and closed the door. And slipped the deadbolt home. I did the same with alcohol. Black and white. Because I say so.
Anyway, I hope I have honored your questions, Joe, by responding with the same generosity of spirit which you used in posing them. I wish you well.
A black and white thing, I can't bring myself to say never, it's like saying I'll never have an accident.
I believe I have control over my actions, and this means I do have control over my actions. It is only by losing that belief that I cede control to some aspect of myself that is not voluntary. My actions happen only in the present, and I have made a covenant with myself, that I will never now drink. That covers it pretty much for me until the end of time. Forever.
When I quit, the idea of never drinking again had the same impact to me of stopping drinking, or quitting drinking, they each have the same degree of finality and permanence to my mind, as quitting for today is not quitting. And when I decided to quit forever, it took away any wiggle room for my addiction. I took that option away for good. The happy by product of that was an indescribable sense of relief that my drinking was over and done with. I never had to feel that anguish ever again.
Lots of stuff I've seen in other posts gives me the impression that you believe we're all (AAers/12 steppers) terribly misguided. Do you flat out believe that you're right, and we're wrong?
No.
You state in your first post, "There is nothing wrong with my thinking, nothing wrong with my ego, either." I get the feeling that that's fueled by the fact that in the 12 steps we search out our character defects and work towards having them healed.
That's partly correct. I take issue with the contention that, as an addict, my will and ego must be transformed to be in keeping with a plan to be revealed through prayer and with the guidance of another addict in order for me to recover. I did not drink because of a character defect, but because of the great pleasure it gave me, at least at first.
Do you believe you can in no way ever become a better human being than the one you presently are? Not saying you're not a good, decent human being. But wondering if you believe you're flawless and have no desire or need to grow?
Oh heavens, of course I have many faults, and I am so far from perfection I can just barely make it out on the horizon. But, and this is a big but for me, these opportunities for personal growth had nothing to do with the cause of my drinking. They certainly became impossible to pursue while in active addiction however. For me, sobriety came first, permanent, planned and unconditional. Then, and only then, could I begin to pursue those opportunities for personal growth. For me to believe that I was defective, and that I must repair that defect in order to become sober was and is a non-starter. If it didn't cause my drinking, how would removing it correct it? And what if I failed to correct this defect of character? What if I failed to correct it enough? What would I do if I somehow went back to drinking? What would I do then? I just could not see my way through this, and to my mind, that is a must have.
As for how I quit, I decided I could choose not to drink in this present moment, and when the urges to drink came, I brought my focus back to the present, that present moment when I could choose not to drink. As for the idea of drinking again, I compared it to my experience a long time ago with an old GF who lied, and cheated, and stole, made me feel miserable and ashamed. Hey, just like vodka. I cut off all contact with her, scorched earth policy in effect. I would never have anything to do with her ever again, and if she were ever to have appeared at my door, I would have smiled, turned away, and closed the door. And slipped the deadbolt home. I did the same with alcohol. Black and white. Because I say so.
Anyway, I hope I have honored your questions, Joe, by responding with the same generosity of spirit which you used in posing them. I wish you well.
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Originally Posted by fini
i wonder...did you THINK you had no control, or were you not trying to control or...because you're clear that once you knew-believed you had the control, you quit and stayed that way. how was it BEFORE you believed this?
And I don't think I ever knew about control over it, in fact, I really believed that I could not 'really' quit drinking, and if I could, I certainly couldn't quit now. That all changed for me when it came together in a moment and I could see that I needed to choose between continuing to drink, or never drinking again. The question of difficulty or of failure never entered into it for me.
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@ Freshstart...
Thanks very much. And I'm happy you didn't take my questions personally.
I definitely had some misconceptions, and see some things a lot differently now. I'd like to post in more detail but can't right now. Wanted to acknowledge your post though.
I wish you well also.
Thanks very much. And I'm happy you didn't take my questions personally.
I definitely had some misconceptions, and see some things a lot differently now. I'd like to post in more detail but can't right now. Wanted to acknowledge your post though.
I wish you well also.
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I have a question on true powerlessness. I was brought up in the Catholic faith and we were always taught we had free will. We had 10 commandments and we could break every one of them if we chose to. Is it possible to get free will and powerlessness over alcohol on the same page without comming up with a bunch of twisted nomenclature. This is something I always had a problem with. The 2 things just didn't seem to mix.
I do understand the power of addiction but I think within each of us exists the power to say no to the primitive brain. Learning to harness that power is something we can all do, my thoughts anyhow. The free will thing was always a problem for me tho, just never seemed to fit.
I do understand the power of addiction but I think within each of us exists the power to say no to the primitive brain. Learning to harness that power is something we can all do, my thoughts anyhow. The free will thing was always a problem for me tho, just never seemed to fit.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
I do understand the power of addiction but I think within each of us exists the power to say no to the primitive brain. Learning to harness that power is something we can all do, my thoughts anyhow. The free will thing was always a problem for me tho, just never seemed to fit.
Then I had one of those flash spiritual awakenings that removed the temptation root and branch. In the blink of an eye alcohol was no longer the least bit attractive to me.
Am I using free will? Not at all. Am I choosing to not-drink ODAAT? Not really. I no longer think about drinking nor do I have to think about not-drinking. There is no longer a second option in my life to choose from.
It may not make sense, but I still have no power of choice in the matter. Sobriety is my default state of mind. Does that have anything to do with will power?
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I can't think of one thing I have much power over. I have free will but that's about it.
I can't even really control my own thoughts. They pop in all over the place whenever they want and pretty much about any subject they feel like representing. I just don't cling to them or feel the need to act or react to them.
I'm so much more free by just letting go.
I can't even really control my own thoughts. They pop in all over the place whenever they want and pretty much about any subject they feel like representing. I just don't cling to them or feel the need to act or react to them.
I'm so much more free by just letting go.
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
I am not sure if I can answer this for you, fini, to your satisfaction, but here goes. When I was drinking, I guess I just drank almost at will. I never really attempted to quit drinking at all, I only quit just the once. Maybe this makes me unqualified due to my lack of experience. And I don't think I ever knew about control over it, in fact, I really believed that I could not 'really' quit drinking, and if I could, I certainly couldn't quit now. That all changed for me when it came together in a moment and I could see that I needed to choose between continuing to drink, or never drinking again. The question of difficulty or of failure never entered into it for me.
And I don't think I ever knew about control over it, in fact, I really believed that I could not 'really' quit drinking, and if I could, I certainly couldn't quit now. That all changed for me when it came together in a moment and I could see that I needed to choose between continuing to drink, or never drinking again. The question of difficulty or of failure never entered into it for me.sigh.
the question of failure never entered into it fore me, either; but the experience of failure sure did. over and over.
later this morning i wondered what it was that you accepted when you say your salvation came through acceptance?
clearly, it wasn't powerlessness or lack of control...and i'm still puzzled by what you mean by years of out-of-control drinking when you seemingly made no attempt to control?
thanks for engaging with me on this and trying to help me see where you're coming from....
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BTSO,
free will and power over or even power to are not the same thing.
there are many things i can freely will but can't make them so.
going to sleep is a simple example.
i can make a whole bunch of free-will decisions and be unable to make it so.
free will and power over or even power to are not the same thing.
there are many things i can freely will but can't make them so.
going to sleep is a simple example.
i can make a whole bunch of free-will decisions and be unable to make it so.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
I have a question on true powerlessness. I was brought up in the Catholic faith and we were always taught we had free will. We had 10 commandments and we could break every one of them if we chose to. Is it possible to get free will and powerlessness over alcohol on the same page without comming up with a bunch of twisted nomenclature. This is something I always had a problem with. The 2 things just didn't seem to mix.
I do understand the power of addiction but I think within each of us exists the power to say no to the primitive brain. Learning to harness that power is something we can all do, my thoughts anyhow. The free will thing was always a problem for me tho, just never seemed to fit.
I do understand the power of addiction but I think within each of us exists the power to say no to the primitive brain. Learning to harness that power is something we can all do, my thoughts anyhow. The free will thing was always a problem for me tho, just never seemed to fit.
Something else that has stuck with me through my early religious instruction was the Eden story, not the snake part but the Cain and Abel part. I didn't understand that part of the story at all at the time. Much later in my life, I read John Steinbeck's East of Eden which had a profound impact on me, specifically the section I have referenced in the past here many times, and that is the part where Cain is told that he 'mayest triumph' over sin. He was not told 'do thou triumph', a command. He was not told 'thou shalt triumph', a promise. Instead, he was told 'Timshel - thou mayest', and this is significant, because also, if he chooses, he mayest not. He may fail. But this choice, this power to choose, is what makes mankind great. We can choose our course, and fight through it, and win.
Aaaaand, Onward!
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Originally Posted by fini
BTSO,
free will and power over or even power to are not the same thing.
there are many things i can freely will but can't make them so.
going to sleep is a simple example.
i can make a whole bunch of free-will decisions and be unable to make it so.
free will and power over or even power to are not the same thing.
there are many things i can freely will but can't make them so.
going to sleep is a simple example.
i can make a whole bunch of free-will decisions and be unable to make it so.
So you are saying we could have free will to drink or not but not have the power to follow through with the decision? Without the power though we don't have free will. I have no idea, wanted to see how you guys explained the paradox. How can we have free will to decide not to do something that we don't have the power not to do?
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
So you are saying we could have free will to drink or not but not have the power to follow through with the decision? Without the power though we don't have free will. I have no idea, wanted to see how you guys explained the paradox. How can we have free will to decide not to do something that we don't have the power not to do?
my will was free but my power impaired. compromised.
i finally got clear on that for myself. alcoholism had severely messed with not my free will but my free "will NOT".
i wrestled with this over and over while drinking after deciding freely not to, and then going back to it.
i wrestled with it all again a couple of years into sobriety. the choices came down to two in the end: if i had free will in this matter of not drinking again and getting drunk over and over was so miserable for me, then i must be insane to freely choose to do it again.
insanity or no free will...
and a discussion on whether we really have free will on anything much is beyond me. our will and choices are influenced by soooo much....by needs, wants, upbringing, peer-pressure, consequences, unconscious stuff
So you are saying we could have free will to drink or not.... ummm no, that's not quite what i'm saying. i had free will to drink as far as i could decide to do it. yet, the decision wasn't free, really, since it was driven by alcoholism. my decisions NOT to drink were freely made, yet my power of follow-through i couldn't access consistently. or at all, at times.
for example: my so-=called decision to drink on any given night was NOT the same free-will decision as my sister's, who has no issue whatsoever with alcohol and might have decided on that same night to get a bottle of wine for dinner with her hubby and share a glass with him.
my so-called free-will-decisions were driven by something she didn't have.
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
Without the power though we don't have free will. I have no idea, wanted to see how you guys explained the paradox. How can we have free will to decide not to do something that we don't have the power not to do?
I feel as though I had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. I have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for me.
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