Joe Nerv

And what do you believe you are powerless over, if anything?

I purposely put this in the alcoholism section and not the 12 step section because I'm curious what everyone thinks.

AA sometimes gets a bad rap because of the ideas wrapped around the concept of powerlessness. I think those ideas are often misunderstood.

The way I see it, saying I'm powerless over alcohol means that the addiction (obsession, illness, disease, compulsion, desire, or whatever anyone wants to label it) that kicks in if I pick up a first drink is going to win. I have 'less' power than it does. Alcohol, if I drink it, becomes more powerful than my wish to control it. Is that different than what someone who uses AVRT or any other way of staying sober believes? Or are we all really on the same page, only using different words and definitions?

I have a lot of thoughts on this (and other things in my life I believe I'm powerless over) but just want to get the conversation rolling.

I'm not looking to start a heated debate, really looking to find common ground here. I believe we all have a common goal. To stay away from alcohol, and help others to do the same. Looking for little pieces that might help to keep us all on the same page, rather than seperate us. Hope we can keep this pleasant.

silentrun

Powerless means I can't change it. I guess accepting that I can't change it is a kind of power but it still doesn't change it. It allows me to make peace and move on. I feel I am powerless against alcohol because it will beat me every time. Trust me I did my due diligence on that one. So I accept that and I leave it lay and move on. I will never have any power over alcohol and that's never going to change. I think of a line from a song when I think about drinking. "What kind of fool do you think I am? I ain't falling for you all over again. I ain't playing a game that I know I can't win. What kind of fool do you think I am?"

MIRecovery

If I am drinking I am powerless over the out comes. It is completely with in my power if I drink or not. I accomplish not drinking by working a program of recovery called AA.

I am also powerless over people, places, and things but I have complete control of myself and how I respond to people, places, and things.

Fallow

To me being powerless over alcohol means that I WILL drink again.

Joe Nerv

Why?

And... Do you believe being powerless over alcohol means you don't have the power to decide to take, or not the first drink?

kentuckydan

In the Big Book it says

Goes on to say except that provided by a conscious contact with a higher power.

So beyond I have no control after the first drink, left to my own devises and a program that depends solely on my own will power and self knowledge I have no power over the next drink

MrTumble

I would put it like this: My desire to get wasted often is more powerful than my desire to stay sober.

I dont think alcohol has any power, otherwise everyone would be in the same boat. My drinking habits are a personal problem, my ability to stop drinking once I start is unreliable at best and non-existent at worse. That's not alcohols fault, its mine.

Leadfoot

In the last ten years of my drinking I can count on one hand the times I intentionally set out to get drunk. Yet somehow I was drunk every day. The delusion persisted. The delusion that had me certain that I was going to drink like a gentleman. The delusion that had me believing that this time things were going to be different. Powerless is coming to the realization that the delusion was really a lie with pretty wrapping.

fini

well...i can't entirely define it, but it has to do with an inability to exert control. and a lack of agency. being incapable to effect a change.

Is that different than what someone who uses AVRT or any other way of staying sober believes? Or are we all really on the same page, only using different words and definitions?no, IMO we're not all on the same page. i say that because I'm not on the same page where i started. i've traveled pages. and i didn't use AVRT per se, but did get sober in a secular place and forum/meetings where power and choice were what i believed i had, had had in the past and somehow didn't use, and not until much later could i take a real deep look into my own actual experience which belied the belief-system i'd put around it.
the power i didn't have wasn't to do with saying I'm powerless over alcohol means that the addiction .....that kicks in if I pick up a first drink . i actually never really tried that. if/when i drank, i always intended more than one. i knew just one would be worse than none; knew this from very early on.
but the place where i was powerless was before the first drink. it was a powerlessness to stick to my decision not to drink. it was a powerlessness with regards to drinking to keep to my decisions and commitments. it wasn't a conscious change of mind every time i went back to drinking, or a craving i caved to...but this... something kicked in and i went and bought the stuff and no question or struggle.
powerless over my mind and actions. while cognitively i knew different.
awful awful place.

youbetcha

I believe I'm powerless over alcohol and that I have that "thing," that "allergy" or what have you that if I started drinking I sometimes didn't know where I'd end up. I had friends in my drinking days and I see people now that can have a few drinks and go home and go to bed, it seems they don't have alcoholism. In sobriety I've realized the reality that I also don't have power over other people or many times the results of outcomes in situations. I have power over my actions, words etc. and/but I practice turning those over to God as well, and right or wrong I try to do the right thing based on that, the results are up to God. I think that's the Power, that feeling of guidance and direction that I feel. I'm not like a "leaf in the wind" anymore.

ReadyAtLast

I have attended AA meetings years ago though not this time I got sober. I had a problem with the concept of powerlessness, the lack of control. The idea that some may say they are powerless so drink,as though abdicating responsibility, it almost being an excuse to allow them to drink.

Since using SR I've seen other interpretations. Whilst I'm still not entirely comfortable with the word and I don't use it, I see it as powerless to stop drinking once started.

Brian316

To me, it just basically means that if I take one drink I cannot guarantee (other then most likely I will be wasted or buzzed) the outcome of the last drink.....or if there will be one.

BackToSquareOne

It gets a bad rap because powerlessness at face value just sounds like a lousy way to approach a problem. If your truely powerless then why even waste your time trying, what would be the point. The term can be used to add more fuel to the fire, another excuse to drink.

AA is a Spiritual program of empowerment using surrender as a key point. Both words, surrender and powerlessness engender a sense of defeat, how could they not? You really have to look past the words to understand what the program is all about. Very easy to get hung up on those things tho.

freshstart57

I tend to see the powerlessness issue from the other side. It is not the concept of being powerless over something that has led to my sobriety. On the contrary, I refuse to accept powerlessness over alcohol, and I manifest that by never drinking again. My urge to drink is powerless, not me. There is nothing wrong with my thinking, nothing wrong with my ego, either. In fact it is my reason and self respect which have driven me to demand and achieve sobriety, and my self confidence which has let me maintain it.

I have the ultimate power over alcohol in that nothing can make me drink again, and no condition must be met for me to maintain my sobriety. Acceptance, yes, but surrender, never.

Gottalife

I lost the power of choice in drink so loss of power = powerless. The main problem was not so much what happened after I took a drink, but in my mind in the moment I took the first drink. Many times, having sworn of just for the day, I would find myself on my 4th or 5th drink before remembering I had sworn off. I had no effective defence against the first drink. The strange mental blank spot.

I also lacked the power to live without alcohol. When I did manage to stop for a few days here and there, life became miserable. I didn't seem to fit in the world.

These two areas of powerlessness were addressed differently through the AA program. In respect of alcohol, I was taken to a place of neutrality. Alcohol became a non-issue, the problem was removed. I did not get the power of choice back, I am simply in a position where that choice is one I no longer need to make.

In respect of life in general, I was given all the power I need to live a full and happy life. I have the power to make decisions. I can choose my friends, I can go anywhere free men can go and I don't have to hide from alcohol. I even have the power to make mistakes and learn from them instead of drink over them.

I seem to have the courage to change some things, and the serenity to accept other things I can't change, and I am making a little progress on gaining the wisdom to know the difference. That nice feeling I used to get only at a meeting, is now with me wherever I am.

Interesting topic Joe. The whole powerlessness thing gets a bit over stated at times. I think, in essence, it's about recognising the situation as it is (loss of choice in drinking) in order to be able to move on to a solution.

Certainly life today is not about thinking "I am powerless and might relapse". The program has taken me way beyond that. My number one problem today is to try and understand what the God of my understanding wants me to do, and then doing it

ru12

Ok Joe. You asked.

I am NOT powerless over alcohol. I can decide if I drink it or not. Even while drinking, I can usually stop if I want to. And if I can stop, even once I had a few, I am indeed NOT powerless. Intoxicants affect one's judgement. And once I get buzzed it is indeed harder to stop, at least for me, so I just don't start. So if that means that I'm not a REAL alcoholic as defined by the Big Book, then so be it. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. My life is better if I don't drink it.


I understand how you define powerlessness, it just doesn't match my experience.

FourSeasons

Well said, MrTumble! I am not powerless in making the decision to drink. I become powerless when I decide to have just one glass of wine (or even sip).

Thus, today I have decided not to drink.

RobbyRobot

Interesting discussion, guys.

Being a spiritual person, surrender is bread n butter to how I have chosen to live my sobriety. Not to say real sobriety can't be lived without spiritual experiences or faith, it most certainly can, imo; but more to say since I have chosen a spiritual kind of sobriety, an act of surrender is a given responsiblity for me. Powerlessness and surrender go together like hand n glove, imo.

In my surrender to my powerlessness existing while being drunk I lose nothing, and with that surrender I gain an empowerment I would otherwise not be able to achieve ie a spiritually empowered sobriety.

For me, a spiritual life is required. The alternative of just quitting and my being still what I was when i quit - an agnostic - I would have returned to drinking sooner then later. I know it. I have years of experiences of failed quits to inform me a spiritual life is what I need to be all that I can be, and so of course, a spiritual sobriety must be included or else i would be some kind of hypocrite otherwise.

When I last quit drinking, I quit as an agnostic. I later chose a spiritual path as I was working the AA program. As my psyche changed out from being wholly alcoholic to being holistically sober, I also changed from being agnostically-minded to being spiritually-minded in my daily living practices, beliefs, and faith. This all happened in under 3 months and intensified as I completed the 12 steps. As the years of gone by, I have enjoyed all the promises as was promised to me. I have no regrets on my acceptance of my forever being powerless over my past drinking of alcohol. I have no future drinking of alcohol to worry myself. I am a recovered alcoholic drug addict. I have no remorse or regrets for my having within me a disempowered alcoholism illness, as defined by AA. It is a wonderful paradox that the more surrender I achieve the greater is my empowerment for living my sober life style.

I want to say, that in no way am I saying real sobriety is only achieved if it has a spiritual composition - absolutely real alcoholics can achieve real sobriety and be themselves agnostic and/or be atheist or whatever else for that matter, and they can of course achieve such sobriety without AA. I'm saying for me, I needed a spiritual life to stay sober - and this makes me no better or worse then anybody else making different choices to remain free from alcohol. Sobriety has many doors and windows, and we make of it what we choose, imo. I don't care that being spiritual ensures my chosen lifestyle, so why would I care how others have made their choices to be free. I only care enough to make whatever work, and I expect others do for themselves what works for them too. The alternatives for any of us if we are not doing what works for us is of course a return to drinking. Whatever it takes, whatever works, that is the best choice to be made.

DayTrader

Great stuff there you two ^^

Ditto for me.

Deckard

Sometimes the appearance of power (and powerlessness) can be complex.

For instance, was Gandhi powerful or powerless in the struggle for Indian independence?

To superficial appearances he was quite powerless, but on a deep level, of course, he was powerful enough to defy an empire. He was powerful in a way that counted.