fini

just a couple of comments: the OP posted purposely in the 'Alcoholism' section instead of the 12-step section for a reason.
and i'm thinking that it doesn't seem to be about agreement, really. it seems to come down to different ways of experiencing, or at the very least to very different ways of framing what our experience was/is.
for example: when jkb says:

When I thought I was powerless I kept on drinking because after all I had no power over the first drink right?

when I found out that I had to choose the first drink.... that I had all power in that regard,it was true freedom.

i can only shake my head in incomprehension, not disagreement. my experience was the opposite, pretty much exactly.

such a spectrum!

BackToSquareOne

If you were to turn it over to a higher power and decided that you were going to keep drinking until your higher power stopped you, you might never stop. That's where free will comes in. When you turn it over with the perceived sense of powerlessness and do decide to quit who among us can really say where the power actually came from?

Was it just the power of belief, suggestion or faith or was the power always within all of us and we just unleash it through those things. You don't really have a lot of control over your mind anyhow, you can't choose to stop thinking, breathing or making red blood cells, do you tell your brain how to run each of your organs?

Are you conscious awareness tossed inside a body or a body that gave birth to conscious awareness? The mystery would still be who designed the body and the universe in the first place? The greatest minds have been trying to figure this out since the beginning of time, I sure hope we have better luck then they did and can answer all those questions here...

Elseware

Powerless or powerful? These seem to me to be synonyms when you really think about it. In your powerlessness you become powerful over whether or not you will take your first drink. And regardless of power you are still responsible no matter what you choose to do.

360shoes

I enjoy reading what you all shared.

I'm not so sure my idea of my free will is just which view of the mirage do I want to live with. I can't change one thing about the fact I will eventually lose everything I have, everyone I love, and I will die. In not so many years from now, all that I know, I will know no more. I don't even know if I will get years.

So all I get is just a choice at the time I have an opportunity to make one. I can't even really control when I get that.

I just don't struggle with ideas of power or powerless.

I did however struggle when I drank that damn alcohol. I'm staying away from it. Me and alcohol don't get along. It can do whatever it wants to do...like I could change it anyway. It is what it is. Then again, it has no power to change me if I stay away from it.

Just me. What do I know.

Pete55

I just re-read the question again, I may have missed it, but is the question directed at alcohol, as in "powerless over alcohol" etc, or just generally speaking ?

Joe Nerv

In relation to the 12 steps, and our sober lives. I guess that means both, in answer to your question .

LadyinBC

I agree and when I first tried quitting I just simply manipulated it in my mind so that I would have an excuse to keep drinking and that AA wasn't working because it was teaching me that I'm not responsible. Which of course isnt' true, I just needed an excuse. I'm just speaking for me here.

Once I take that first drink I know I am powerless over the alcohol. I won't stop until it is gone. However, I am not powerless when it comes to taking that first drink. I have the power to say no to it. That I can control.

I had to figure out why it was so important for me to be in control of everything and why being powerless over something bothered me so much. Once I opened my mind to different ideas I realized that knowlegdge is power.

foolsgold66

I enjoy Sam, hadn't seen that particular video. I always enjoy his sense of humor coming through with the subject matter. While he covered some aspects of what might be called 'scientific powerlessness' in his discourse, I didn't find the sum total of his talk to be 'the other side' of anything, other than the concept of 'free will' as used in religion and criminal justice.

BackToSquareOne

You could be right, I'm not sure if Sam might not be on the same page as AA as far as powerlessness goes. He does say people could change their ways thru education and beliefs. He is saying that at the time the action occurred based on the sum total of their knowledge and what was going on in their head they were powerless to make any other decision.

I'm not in AA, you would need someone with more AA knowledge to answer that one. The video is on page 4 of this thred at the top.

Joe Nerv

Was talking to a newcomer last night, and said something to him I never did before to a newcomer. Or at least, not quite the way I did... but I think it's been inspired by my interactions on this forum.

This is his second time around, and he told me he struggles with the powerlessness stuff. I told him, you don't have to admit, nor even believe you're powerless over anything to stop drinking. Truth is, as I've said several times here, that wasn't how it worked for me. I didn't believe I was powerless over alcohol, couldn't wrap my brain around it. What I could do though was turn my life and will over to the care of a force in the universe I believed to exist. That wasn't the god I learned about in grade school (still isn't), but simply a power I had more of a hope, than faith, existed. And it worked. I prayed every day for more to be revealed, and that I be given the strength to put one foot in front of the other. And again, it worked. Long enough for me to develop my own understanding of what it means to be powerless.

It's stuff like this that puts me at odds with the message some people in AA put out. That it MUST be done according to the directions. I disagree 200% with that. I've heard it said countless times that the only step we need to get perfectly is the first step, and, well... that's just not true. Yes, I believe that we need to not drink, no matter what, but I don't HAVE TO agree I'm powerless to do that. And it's not true that you can't work the rest of the steps until you get the first step, and admit powerlessness. To me that's nonsense. Not saying that it DOESN'T work that way. Saying that it doesn't HAVE TO work that way. I practice all the steps in my life, haven't drank in over 29 years, have no desire to drink whatsoever, and have a life that's gotten progressively better in every single aspect - physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I fit the definition of "real" alcoholic in the BB, AND I didn't work the steps precicely as they're laid out in the BB. At some point later in sobriety I did, but it was just part of my journey. No earth shattering changes due to the few specifics that were slightly different than what I had already done.

So... not sure where I'm going with this as I've gotten distracted by something here. Not sure I was going anywhere with it, actually, just kind of journalizing some of my thoughts. Bottom line is that I don't believe it's necessary to admit powerlessness in order to stop drinking. As someone else said, I never really got caught up in it either. Until recently, as I'm hearing so much emphasis on the word.

Pete55

Would it make sense to hone in on Powerlessness, to ask the definition of Powerless over alcohol instead ?
Because, the way I have been shown, Powerless over alcohol is about the physical craving after the first drink and the abnormal reaction that's manifests once alcohol enters the body, the change in personality.
Therefore, try turning that into a question, Can I stop after the first drink ? In other words, Do I have the power to stop the physical craving ?
It's mentioned in the Dr's Opinion,
The DR wrote:
The he writes
So if you turn those statements into a question,
What class ?
The class that has, physical craving for liquor

Can you stop the craving ?
If not, would that obviously mean, "Powerless over alcohol" ?

miamifella

The powerless thing gets me. I think I am powerless over my addiction but not in the way 12-step recovery uses the term.

In 12-step recovery, one has to depend on a higher power to avoid using/drinking when the cravings hit. There is no way for a person to help since we are powerless.

My recovery really started with the help of friends who I spoke with while in the middle of cravings. My friends were not addicts but their concern, warmth and humor got me through the rough spots.

So I feel that people can help without resort to a higher power. I tried the AA way of praying through the cravings and I used anyway. But with some human aid, I got through it.

So according to 12-step recovery, I did not really believe in powerlessness. But for me, I think the fact that I could not do it alone, meant that I was powerless.

foolsgold66

I don't think focusing on the strict definition of the word 'powerless' is absolutely necessary for all but possibly the word itself was chosen for a very specific reason. I believe it may be an attempt to use psychology to help the drinker focus less on shame and guilt and more on the solution.

As to the thread title question, yes I am purposely avoiding answering it.

Boleo

I myself would prefer a word equivalent to "Loss of control" but can't think of one off hand.

soberhawk

What about being lost.

Boleo

Some people describe it as "Being totally f**ked". That does in fact match my experience. Can you think of a euphemism?

foolsgold66

You guys are kinda making my point, which is helpful because I am trying not to be extremely blunt. Whatever interpretation serves purpose for you in achieving and maintaining sobriety is the only definition necessary.

dwtbd

I can't drink.


I Can not drink.


Realising the second, helped me with the first

Joe Nerv

Cool.

I actually never say I can't drink. I can easily drink. Just walk to the corner store, by a beer, pop it open, and drink. I CAN not drink, which is awesome, and something that I couldn't do in the past.

I like saying that I now have the power of choice, and I choose not to drink.

Boleo

I Can not drink nor can I not-drink. I am for all practical purposes caught in a double-bind.

To claim I still have some power over my drinking makes no sense in my world. To claim I lost all power over my drinking makes no sense in other people's world. What I now have is a "Spiritual Solution", it does not need to make sense to get results. Spiritual answers are beyond all logic and reason.