How do you define powerlessness?
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
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Here's a very different take on free will, Sam Harris on "Free Will" - YouTube
I don't believe it but it is the other side of the story to the extreme.
I don't believe it but it is the other side of the story to the extreme.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
can't watch YouTube on dial-up.
and anyway, i'm more interested in your and other SR people's thoughts than in Sam Harris's
my own intellectual grappling with the power/choice/control/agency thing never did help me succeed with being successful at quitting and staying quit.
i knew that theoretically i should have all the power.
the reality didn't mesh with that.
the reality of my alcoholism is that it includes messed-up power and control mechanisms.
finally getting to really knowing that viscerally and accepting that was my biggest struggle.
what are your own experiences, BTSO?
and anyway, i'm more interested in your and other SR people's thoughts than in Sam Harris's
my own intellectual grappling with the power/choice/control/agency thing never did help me succeed with being successful at quitting and staying quit.
i knew that theoretically i should have all the power.
the reality didn't mesh with that.
the reality of my alcoholism is that it includes messed-up power and control mechanisms.
finally getting to really knowing that viscerally and accepting that was my biggest struggle.
what are your own experiences, BTSO?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
Originally Posted by fini 
can't watch YouTube on dial-up.
and anyway, i'm more interested in your and other SR people's thoughts than in Sam Harris's
my own intellectual grappling with the power/choice/control/agency thing never did help me succeed with being successful at quitting and staying quit.
i knew that theoretically i should have all the power.
the reality didn't mesh with that.
the reality of my alcoholism is that it includes messed-up power and control mechanisms.
finally getting to really knowing that viscerally and accepting that was my biggest struggle.
what are your own experiences, BTSO?
and anyway, i'm more interested in your and other SR people's thoughts than in Sam Harris's
my own intellectual grappling with the power/choice/control/agency thing never did help me succeed with being successful at quitting and staying quit.
i knew that theoretically i should have all the power.
the reality didn't mesh with that.
the reality of my alcoholism is that it includes messed-up power and control mechanisms.
finally getting to really knowing that viscerally and accepting that was my biggest struggle.
what are your own experiences, BTSO?
I was born in 1957, so when I grew up information wasn't as available as it is today. I didn't even know what alcohol withdrawal was all about until I went thru it enough times. At first I thought I was going insane! I drank for well over 30 years and had many failed attempts at stopping. I had so many final bottoms I could probably write the book of final bottoms. The thing is that with each one I really meant it, never worked out that way tho.
The thing I never really understood is how someone could go thru so much pain and misery with a thing then as soon as they felt better, repeat the same process ad infinitum. I went to rehab in 1990 and as soon as I got home went down to the liquor store and restocked my bar. I tried AA but never gave it a fair shot so can't say if it would have worked had I of done so.
I finally threw in the towel for good a little over 5 years ago but by that point I didn't have any more withdrawals left in me. I had some kind of insight, awakening or whatever you prefer to call it where that became crystal clear. I knew I was done with it and that was that.
I find it interesting that when you study the brain science of alcoholism the perceived sense of powerlessness and the other withdrawal effects are the same as described by AA so long ago. The brain science wasn't even out at that time but those things are part of the addiction itself. Great topic!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 65
I personally don't believe in the term "powerless" at all. Its an out dated and much overly used term, specifically to alcoholics. "Do you believe you are powerless over alcohol?, Are you prepared to admit this?". Umm, no. I'll admit I'm an alcoholic. But If I was truly powerless, by DEFINITION, no matter how bad my circumstances were, I would have NO hope or future. So you asked, that's my personal feelings on the expression. I know its not a popular one here. So let the skewing of me begin lol.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
BTSO,
some parallells there...born in 1955, raised in an entirely catholic family, village and school (it didn't take ), drank for over thirty years with many many attempts to quit and stay that way.
re powerlessness, it makes sense that the word and the concept makes no, or not much, sense to someone who's not often tried to quit and couldn't.
it was my repeated experience of failure that forced me to that point.
The thing I never really understood is how someone could go thru so much pain and misery with a thing then as soon as they felt better, repeat the same process ad infinitum.
yes; i couldn't understand it either. but i sure did it.
it ISN'T understandable.
only acceptable.
but it wasn't ad infinitum after all, was it
some parallells there...born in 1955, raised in an entirely catholic family, village and school (it didn't take ), drank for over thirty years with many many attempts to quit and stay that way.
re powerlessness, it makes sense that the word and the concept makes no, or not much, sense to someone who's not often tried to quit and couldn't.
it was my repeated experience of failure that forced me to that point.
The thing I never really understood is how someone could go thru so much pain and misery with a thing then as soon as they felt better, repeat the same process ad infinitum.
yes; i couldn't understand it either. but i sure did it.
it ISN'T understandable.
only acceptable.
but it wasn't ad infinitum after all, was it
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Originally Posted by fini
Later this morning i wondered what it was that you accepted when you say your salvation came through acceptance?
Clearly, it wasn't powerlessness or lack of control. And I'm still puzzled by what you mean by years of out-of-control drinking when you seemingly made no attempt to control?
Thanks for engaging with me on this and trying to help me see where you're coming from.
Clearly, it wasn't powerlessness or lack of control. And I'm still puzzled by what you mean by years of out-of-control drinking when you seemingly made no attempt to control?
Thanks for engaging with me on this and trying to help me see where you're coming from.
As for my drinking history, I went to work for years drinking heavily every night until my mental balance started to suffer. My drinking was causing deep clinical depression and anxiety, and I didn't work for six months, so I drank even more. After five of those months, I got the acceptance thing, decided to face my cr@p sober and do it up right. My depression and anxiety lifted immediately on making my plan to never drink, I had hope in life again, and they almost disappeared within a month or two.
During that drinking time, I really made no real attempt to control it. Whenever I drank, and this was all the time, remember, I drank freely. Even so, I was never fired nor arrested for DUI. I guess in some ways, I really don't have hardly any experience with sobriety because I have only quit once.
I don't want to hijack this thread, it's not about me, fini. Let's talk some more by pm, OK?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
Originally Posted by fini
BTSO,
some parallells there...born in 1955, raised in an entirely catholic family, village and school (it didn't take ), drank for over thirty years with many many attempts to quit and stay that way.
re powerlessness, it makes sense that the word and the concept makes no, or not much, sense to someone who's not often tried to quit and couldn't.
it was my repeated experience of failure that forced me to that point.
The thing I never really understood is how someone could go thru so much pain and misery with a thing then as soon as they felt better, repeat the same process ad infinitum.
yes; i couldn't understand it either. but i sure did it.
it ISN'T understandable.
only acceptable.
but it wasn't ad infinitum after all, was it
some parallells there...born in 1955, raised in an entirely catholic family, village and school (it didn't take ), drank for over thirty years with many many attempts to quit and stay that way.
re powerlessness, it makes sense that the word and the concept makes no, or not much, sense to someone who's not often tried to quit and couldn't.
it was my repeated experience of failure that forced me to that point.
The thing I never really understood is how someone could go thru so much pain and misery with a thing then as soon as they felt better, repeat the same process ad infinitum.
yes; i couldn't understand it either. but i sure did it.
it ISN'T understandable.
only acceptable.
but it wasn't ad infinitum after all, was it
I came up with a theory for this, I called it "The Stuck In The Middle Phenomenon", you sincerely want to quit but at times you also want to change the way you feel with old reliable alcohol. The brain seems to focus in on only the good parts of the experience and therein lies the problem.
When that time comes and you're feeling bummed out or whatever the primitive brain shouts out, "No need to feel this way, just send down some of that magic in a bottle and it will be all better". That's the grand delusion of alcohol and people have been falling for it since alcohol was invented. After the addiction kicks in you don't even meed a reason to drink, one reason seems as good as another and there you are, back to square one again...
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by workingtheday
... But If I was truly powerless, by DEFINITION, no matter how bad my circumstances were, I would have NO hope or future. So you asked, that's my personal feelings on the expression. I know its not a popular one here. So let the skewing of me begin lol.
Then, after years of struggle, I finally surrender the idea that I would ever "achieve" sobriety. That's when sobriety came to me. I had stopped chasing it and it stopped running from me. I am still powerless over alcohol. Fortunately there is a Higher Power standing between me and alcohol.
Only a Spiritual Experience can provide that kind of understanding. If you, yourself don't understand that, it is because all you have is an opinion about an experience which you have never had.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 1,344
I understand alcoholism, any addiction for that sake, as when we continue to use a substance regardless of it hurts our surroundings, hurts us and damages our life.
I think we do this because the addiction has taken stronghold on our motivations and impacts our actions – we are powerless.
In my view accepting this is an important step in recovery.
I think it is chronic.
There will never be a mission accomplished.
But as long as we wake up every morning with a strong conviction that mission is accepted, we can get the gift of a long sober life.
It is hard work and I am thankful it is possible.
I think we do this because the addiction has taken stronghold on our motivations and impacts our actions – we are powerless.
In my view accepting this is an important step in recovery.
I think it is chronic.
There will never be a mission accomplished.
But as long as we wake up every morning with a strong conviction that mission is accepted, we can get the gift of a long sober life.
It is hard work and I am thankful it is possible.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 821
The OP talks about finding common ground and I do believe there is some.
Years ago when I was attending AA (and "relapsing" constantly) my sponsor told me, "I can only help you if you don't drink...NO MATTER WHAT".
I left AA and worked RR. RR says that you must be committed to abstinence as well.
So the word "powerless" is to me a very dangerous one. When I thought I was powerless I kept on drinking because after all I had no power over the first drink right?
when I found out that I had to choose the first drink.... that I had all power in that regard,it was true freedom.
That said I could not list the things I do not have power over for there are far too many. My own actions... Yep I do have power over those. So to me the common ground with any program is to be committed to abstinence.
Jess
Years ago when I was attending AA (and "relapsing" constantly) my sponsor told me, "I can only help you if you don't drink...NO MATTER WHAT".
I left AA and worked RR. RR says that you must be committed to abstinence as well.
So the word "powerless" is to me a very dangerous one. When I thought I was powerless I kept on drinking because after all I had no power over the first drink right?
when I found out that I had to choose the first drink.... that I had all power in that regard,it was true freedom.
That said I could not list the things I do not have power over for there are far too many. My own actions... Yep I do have power over those. So to me the common ground with any program is to be committed to abstinence.
Jess
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
"...Years ago when I was attending AA (and "relapsing" constantly) my sponsor told me, "I can only help you if you don't drink...NO MATTER WHAT".
I left AA and worked RR. RR says that you must be committed to abstinence as well..."
Yup, jkb, I agree with your post, except for the above. The sentiment "don't drink, no matter what" is a commitment to abstinence.
(o:
NoelleR
I left AA and worked RR. RR says that you must be committed to abstinence as well..."
Yup, jkb, I agree with your post, except for the above. The sentiment "don't drink, no matter what" is a commitment to abstinence.
(o:
NoelleR
Sobriety is Traditional
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Orcas Island, Washington
Posts: 9,064
If it is so hard to agree upon whether or not we are powerless, then maybe we should just consider that alcohol made our lives unmanageable. That is the first step to recovery...
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Freshstart,
about hijacking, no, i don't want to do that either.
i've noticed my tendency to enjoy conversations widening out, including side-dialogues. part of that is me carrying it over from the LR forum and not being aware enough that many threads here are more topic-specific.
sorry about that.
it's not about me, fini.
well, no, except...it's about all of us.
but here i am, doing it again, going off on tangents....
about hijacking, no, i don't want to do that either.
i've noticed my tendency to enjoy conversations widening out, including side-dialogues. part of that is me carrying it over from the LR forum and not being aware enough that many threads here are more topic-specific.
sorry about that.
it's not about me, fini.
well, no, except...it's about all of us.
but here i am, doing it again, going off on tangents....
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 821
Originally Posted by jkb
The OP talks about finding common ground and I do believe there is some.
Years ago when I was attending AA (and "relapsing" constantly) my sponsor told me, "I can only help you if you don't drink...NO MATTER WHAT".
I left AA and worked RR. RR says that you must be committed to abstinence as well.
So the word "powerless" is to me a very dangerous one. When I thought I was powerless I kept on drinking because after all I had no power over the first drink right?
when I found out that I had to choose the first drink.... that I had all power in that regard,it was true freedom.
That said I could not list the things I do not have power over for there are far too many. My own actions... Yep I do have power over those. So to me the common ground with any program is to be committed to abstinence.Jess
Years ago when I was attending AA (and "relapsing" constantly) my sponsor told me, "I can only help you if you don't drink...NO MATTER WHAT".
I left AA and worked RR. RR says that you must be committed to abstinence as well.
So the word "powerless" is to me a very dangerous one. When I thought I was powerless I kept on drinking because after all I had no power over the first drink right?
when I found out that I had to choose the first drink.... that I had all power in that regard,it was true freedom.
That said I could not list the things I do not have power over for there are far too many. My own actions... Yep I do have power over those. So to me the common ground with any program is to be committed to abstinence.Jess
I was trying to say my sponsor and my book both said that in order to quit drinking I had to quit drinking...lol
Jess
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Ventura, California
Posts: 83
I know how AA tells us to see it already, but then AA also says to see things in your own way too..needless to say which is vital for independent mindset. So, I also see it as some thing where we are powerless when we drink because it's too hard to stop and just drink one glass, but without drinking at all and putting the alcohol in us, we once again have power.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by Coldfusion
If it is so hard to agree upon whether or not we are powerless, then maybe we should just consider that alcohol made our lives unmanageable. That is the first step to recovery...
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 1,344
I think we in reality put different meaning into the term powerless.
When we are indulging in a addiction, rationalizing why we can not stop, playing our small guilt and shame games, giving in to our addiction feeling the hangover, guilt and shame afterwards, burning that feeling out and repeating the cycle.
I do see us as powerless – I think the firs step is to realize that.
Whether we as a solution submit to our high power or distance our self to the “addictive part of our brain, I do see that as variation on the same theme.
We did realize that the “part” of us running the show was not powerful enough to make sensible adult decisions.
When we are indulging in a addiction, rationalizing why we can not stop, playing our small guilt and shame games, giving in to our addiction feeling the hangover, guilt and shame afterwards, burning that feeling out and repeating the cycle.
I do see us as powerless – I think the firs step is to realize that.
Whether we as a solution submit to our high power or distance our self to the “addictive part of our brain, I do see that as variation on the same theme.
We did realize that the “part” of us running the show was not powerful enough to make sensible adult decisions.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
I would like to thank Freshstart for sending me the link to this thread. I would like to thank Joe Nerv, Robby Dee and Fini for widening my perspective.
I am in AA, early in sobriety 90 days coming up and find that I fall somewhere in the middle of your perspectives. Perhaps I am the underbelly of the elephant.
I have surrendered to the fact that I have always been an addict in everything that I have done. The enormity of this allowed my to give up fighting who I was, which I believe I was drowning out with alcohol, Ritalin, Aderall and cocaine - some LSD and shrooms too for spiritual enlightenment.
I found the drugs were like sex to me a way to enhance the highs or perhaps lows induced by the booze. The booze also lowered my rational decision making capabilities, which allowed the obsession for the drugs to kick in.
Like Freshstart, I had a moment of clarity and this is my first and last quit. I will never drink again. I know this because, unless I choose to die, which is where drinking will take me, then my personality will not allow me to drink under control.
So I believe I do have some freewill, albeit powerless (not helpless) over my rational decision making when inebriated from alcohol. So I guess this is power over the first drink.
My higher power is quite different than my catholic upbringing and agnostic/borderline early stages of athirst beliefs that manifested as my ego and narcissism grew thinking I was God.
Since surrendering my power over my mindset and accepting a higher power, I have felt a peace that I have not felt since I was a child. This has helped remove the obsession for the most part. I still hear voices and get crazy thoughts about drinking but, as I step aside from these thoughts I can work through them.
This thread I have found to be quite powerful and helpful to me, as I see both sides and can relate to the parts here…so thank you!
I am in AA, early in sobriety 90 days coming up and find that I fall somewhere in the middle of your perspectives. Perhaps I am the underbelly of the elephant.
I have surrendered to the fact that I have always been an addict in everything that I have done. The enormity of this allowed my to give up fighting who I was, which I believe I was drowning out with alcohol, Ritalin, Aderall and cocaine - some LSD and shrooms too for spiritual enlightenment.
I found the drugs were like sex to me a way to enhance the highs or perhaps lows induced by the booze. The booze also lowered my rational decision making capabilities, which allowed the obsession for the drugs to kick in.
Like Freshstart, I had a moment of clarity and this is my first and last quit. I will never drink again. I know this because, unless I choose to die, which is where drinking will take me, then my personality will not allow me to drink under control.
So I believe I do have some freewill, albeit powerless (not helpless) over my rational decision making when inebriated from alcohol. So I guess this is power over the first drink.
My higher power is quite different than my catholic upbringing and agnostic/borderline early stages of athirst beliefs that manifested as my ego and narcissism grew thinking I was God.
Since surrendering my power over my mindset and accepting a higher power, I have felt a peace that I have not felt since I was a child. This has helped remove the obsession for the most part. I still hear voices and get crazy thoughts about drinking but, as I step aside from these thoughts I can work through them.
This thread I have found to be quite powerful and helpful to me, as I see both sides and can relate to the parts here…so thank you!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,785
The powerless part is what took me so long to understand and to accept. I was chasing the power and the control. When I gave up the chase that is when I stopped drinking. I surrendered.
I have all the power I need, I just do not control nor wield that power. That is for my HP to handle. That is his responsibility, not mine. I pray he gives me strength and willingness to continue to let it go and let him handle it.
As soon as I attempt to take it back by drinking, I am again, powerless.
I have all the power I need, I just do not control nor wield that power. That is for my HP to handle. That is his responsibility, not mine. I pray he gives me strength and willingness to continue to let it go and let him handle it.
As soon as I attempt to take it back by drinking, I am again, powerless.
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