ru12

People get physiological responses, withdrawal symptoms, when they stop doing a lot of destructive behaviors . . . like smoking. Is smoking a DISEASE?

TrixMixer

Point taken. I quit smoking 3 packs a day and I can tell you, yeah I was really irritable, but did not have to go into detox. Even alcoholics who do not have to go into detox can have insomnia, heart palpatation. cold sweats, stomach cramps, muscle weakness, and if you are depressed in addition to your alcohol problem --suicidal thoughts---none of this happened when I quit smoking.

The physical effects of detoxing alcohol far out weight cigs.

IMO any substance that wreaks havoc on the physical self when detoxing and has physiological ramifications that may need supervision --well to me at least does not constitute a lack of moral charactor and is more than just a behavioral weakness. But that's just me.

Pete55

Alcoholism can also be defined as a "3 prong disease"

Prong 1 - Physical Allergy, ( Phenomenon of Craving )
coupled to a Prong 2 - Mental Obsession, ( The Mind- constant thought of a drink )
arising from Prong 3 - Emotional Compulsions,
( State of the Mind, " a drink will "fix it" )

There has been no known cure for the Craving,therefore we are Powerless to stop that craving for more alcohol after the first drink, the Obsession can be removed by changing the way we think , and the Emotions require an ongoing program of recovery and to learn about the above, then show another who is desperate enough that seeks sobriety.

So what mind-set, or set of new rules in life does one pick after one can no longer deal with the consequences when succumbing to the obsession to try to drink like normal drinkers?

For example; It's Friday afternoon, got paid and the "rule" is, everyone from work is going to the pub for a few drinks before heading off home. You know last Friday and the Friday before and the one before that and last Xmas that you made a total drunken fool of ya self with work associates.
Usually you are the first at the pub and the last to leave and have the most Mondays off sick or come in on Mondays with a hang-over and broke, feeling guilt,shame and remorse.

Are you going to try to play, ( obsess ) the drinking game after work on a Friday arvo again?
Knowing last week everyone just got sick of seeing you drinking 3 beers to everyone else 1 and ya get that change in personality well into the 2nd beer?
( it does not have to be beer, it can be wine or spirits, makes no difference)

Only a real alcoholic will know what I'm saying here, cos if ya don't understand it or experienced it, probably ya not as alcoholic as the person in the above illustration is.
A hard drinker won't understand it either.

A real alcoholic can never safely drink alcohol, this is also the opinion of doctors.
There came a time when doctors simply said, "we can't help these people, we are human with limited capacity even though we have the latest science can offer"

So if science can't yet offer a definite 100% fool proof solution that requires no surgery or medications to "fix it", then what is the solution ?

EndGameNYC

I don't know. If I can't sleep and can't get out of bed in the morning, am frequently fatigued, am in a low mood most of the time, feel worthless and have suicidal thoughts...I don't wait to find an appropriate definition of 'depression', one that fits me to a tee, before I get help.

Boleo

For me, the obsession to drink got so bad that I had it in my head 24x7 that I needed a drink. I could delay the next drink for a few hours if I had some important task to complete, but the thought of needing that next drink never really left my head. Except for a few seconds when I was currently engaged in swallowing alcohol. I no sooner set the bottle down then the thought of needing another drink returned.

Not-drinking for 30, 60 or even 90 days did not diminish the thought of needing a drink one bit. It was a living hell for me even after 5 months of not-drinking. Then, all of a sudden, I surrendered the idea that I was ever going to recover from those thoughts and it was at that moment that I had a spiritual awakening.

In only the time it takes to blink an eye, all thoughts of drinking left me. It was more than a surprise - it was downright disturbing. I was not even grateful because it was how I wanted to get sober nor was it when I wanted to get sober (I had planed to get drunk that night). Equally surprising was the absence of any idea that I needed to think about not-drinking to maintain that attitude.

Call it a Spiritual Awakening. Call it a epiphany. Call it enlightenment. Whatever it was, it completely reversed 30+ years of a love affair with alcohol. Does that answer your question of "what is the solution?"

freshstart57

I agree with Boleo. It was a sudden and immediate acceptance of my future as a non-drinker. I could suffer and drink, or I could be free and happy, and I made my choice. I got sober right then and there. I made a big plan to never drink again and to never change my mind. It was a Monday morning, about 9:35. 40 years of drinking went phhhht.

That was my solution too.

TrixMixer

NO you don't understand me, Freshstart.

You and Boleo seem to think there is actually a state of sobriety where one never thinks about alcohol and drinking again, and this is supposed to make YOUR sobriety "Unconditional"--Do I have that right?

If so ---why don't you go to a bar order a drink and see if you are not tempted to drink that drink in , say, 2 hours. Just by being on this forum causes you to think about alcohol, drinking and sobriety.

I don't know how long you two have been sober but after 25 years I have earned the right to say MY sobriety is not conditional, because I still fear where alcohol took me and know that my body will suck that alcohol up like a sponge, because I AM AN ALCOHOLIC>

Maybe what you are saying is that your are just not alcoholics.
I got sober exactly the same way you two did--I just thanked God that he gave me the courage to do it the first time. IMOO--you would seem to be in a league of your own by dismissing alcohol like a bothersome fly. No real work involved.Smack your done with it!

Sorry if this sounds witchy, but I feel you are being very dismissive of the immense courage it takes one to become sober and stay sober, because there are some honest enough to still fear it.

To me there is no such thing as an former alcoholic being anything other than an "alcoholic".

Sincerely misunderstood,
TrixMixer

Boleo

I am not saying I am not an alcoholic. I still have the allergy, the same THIQ on the brain and the same depleted organs of an alcoholic. If I were to put one tiny bit of alcohol into my body, It would undo all the work it took to get where I am today in a single swallow.

When I say "I am Recovered", what I have recovered is the same attitude towards liquor as I had as a child - before I knew what it was even like to have the first drink.

I don't fear alcohol because I am not managing my sobriety in any way, shape or form. Some power greater than me is doing that job for me. I do not chose to not-drink ODAAT because there is no temptation to drink in the first place. There is no second option for me to choose from.

If you don't believe me, read page 85 of the Big B. It described my experience 65 years before I experienced it myself. It was not a self-fulfilling prophecy because I did not read it till almost 2 years after I experienced it.

If you yourself have not experienced it. Perhaps you did not struggle as much as I did nor surrender as much as I did? I spent the better part of 3 years struggling and relapsing before I got any results.

freshstart57

So we have come full circle then in our discussion about the definition of alcoholism. Yes, my sobriety is unconditional in the way you imagine. I have indeed been to bars, and there is alcohol in my home. It doesn't make me uncomfortable now in the least. And yes, you are getting it now, I am no longer addicted to or dependent upon alcohol, and by my understanding, am not now an alcoholic. As a former heroin addict is no longer a junkie.

I am in no way being dismissive of your experience, your courage or your honesty. Each of these is, in my estimation, profound.

I am stating that there is an experience outside of yours, which is mine. I no longer fear something which has no power over me. I am not afraid of drinking again and committing an act which is now immoral to me, but I will never do it. That would just be foolish. And for me to claim to be an alcoholic now would be a disservice and an insult to anyone whose sobriety is conditional on a state of mind or soul, or who lives in fear of that next drink.

MaxxPower

I hope this happens to me sooner than later..

Pete55

Boleo
I already know the answer, the question is directed at those who still have doubts or are in denial.

You are correct and I agree and use this terminology also, "Surrender".

Another real life illustration;
Not long ago I was discussing the drinking issue with a old time work associate, he could not fathom the idea of "Surrender to Win" within the alcohol realm of things.
He was convinced to use "Surrender" is a weakness in the line of military battle and could not see it any other way.
He did not "get it" no matter what I said or how I illustrated a few other scenarios. He is not a hopeless alcoholic drinker, he will sip 1 glass of JB & coke on ice after dinner and not think about the next.
I have known this work friend since the 70's, same then and same now as far as his drinking is concerned. Hats off to those that can do that.
These types do not obsess and do not seem to develop a craving for more alcohol after the first drink.
He and his missus are on my "safe list" because they respect the fact I no longer drink,( "thank God for that" they say jokingly), therefore they were advised by me before dinner, "do not offer me alcohol, rada rada" and the conversation started from there as to what AA and Alcoholism is.
No matter what, still the same ol same ol suggestion by non problem drinkers, "but...can't you just stop at one"?
I surrender the conversation, let them "win" so I can get on with the next best sober thing.

PhaseTwo

So are you two ( boleo and freshstart) saying that you don't have to make any conscious decision to not drink alcohol? I feel like the amount it's on my mind has steadily decreased but ever going back to my childlike view towards alcohol seems impossible for me.

Boleo

For me - YES. I don't think about drinking, I don't think about not-drinking. I don't think about choosing. I don't think about not-choosing. I don't fear alcohol. I don't fear relapse. Why? Because alcohol has lost all of it's attraction to me and I have experienced the following awakening:


"We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition"

MrGhost

I don't like playing the judgmental role, so let me make it clear you're the only judge of you, but since you asked for an opinion, I'll give it to you straight... If you're happy all by yourself/aren't depressed/aren't codependent, YET you still crave alcohol badly and it's hard to resist, then you're probably an alcoholic.

TrixMixer

Forgive me, Boleo. I misunderstood that your complete surrender meant you agreed with Freshstart in that "You are not an alcoholic any longer".

My experience was exactly like yours. I just am not ready to say I am no longer an alcoholic".

I have always agreed with your postings and am happy to know I REALLY screwed up in what I thought you were saying.

Again I am sorry for my misinterpretation. Thank you for setting me straight.

Trix

24hrsAday

Alcoholism is PROGRESSIVE i was not "Physically" Addicted until the last few years of my drinking.

KateL

I changed my pattern over three decades. I was nighttime drinker, then a binge drinker, then an around the clock drinker, then a binge drinker again. So thankfully I wasn't constantly drunk for thirty years, but it was still bad. It was like teasing my family. I would be fine for a week or two then bam!!! the whole nightmare would start again. My hangovers were unbearable and that could often result in staying drunk for days just to avoid the withdrawal. However, I hated saying I am an alcoholic at meetings every five minutes but that is just me. I had an illness, so although I joined in, I thought it was wrong to continually berate myself for being ill. Guilt is the worst emotion and always sent me straight back to the bottle, so I had to try and be positive and to like myself.

freshstart57

For my part, it has become morally repugnant for me to consume alcohol. I don't believe that is a typical child's view.

And this state, for me, is not something that 'happened' to me, and there was no mysterious awakening. It was a conscious decision I made over two years ago, after 40 years of drinking. This is a result of what AVRT calls 'a Big Plan'. There was no surrender to alcohol, but an irrevocable choice to never drink again.

And, as bears repeating, this state is unconditional. My 'spiritual condition', whatever I determine that to be, is irrelevant.

ru12

I just don't drink alcohol no matter how or what I think/feel about doing so.

I've only been sober about 3 years. I still have the fleeting thoughts about drinking . . . kind of like I have the fleeting thought of stabbing an ice pick into the eye of the asshat that cut me off in traffic. The thought comes, I often giggle, and move on. I can't help what thoughts my mind creates. It is doing its job. Thinking.

LadyBlue0527

My opinion only.

Removing all discussion of any means that anyone has decided on to get sober and to maintain that sobriety and be happy two crucial points exist.

1.The decision to drink no longer exists. It's not debatable or up for discussion. It is exactly what it is. You can't drink. Pout all you want, lament all you want, cry all you want. Get angry all you want. The topic is dead. There must be total and unequivocal acceptance of that fact. No excuses. NONE!

2. Sobriety requires two things in order to be happy. One is total acceptance of point 1 above. Two is doing whatever the work of choice is to not look back yet forward. The focus has to be on life without alcohol and how to make it rewarding and pleasing. Simply not drinking is not going to give you a good life. YOU have to give YOU a good life.


I've followed this from day one. Have I thought about alcohol? Sure. However, I don't have an option so I'm forced to do what I need to do to get past the urge. No excuses. I'm happier than I ever have been since I was a child. Filling my life with things that I want to do. I can be a victim and pout, cry, and be angry that I can't drink or I can be a survivor and be better for it. I choose the latter.

Some say "but it's not that easy". Yes, yes it is. It's all in what you make up your mind to do. The quicker you decide that you can't drink, no excuses, and the more you fill your life with the things necessary to distance yourself from it the happier you'll be.