So I looked up the definiton of alcoholism...
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 
There is much discussion about the definition of 'alcoholic' or 'alcoholism'. There are medical criteria, psychological criteria, there are spiritual criteria.
There is one group of people who are not alcoholic, by any definition. This group consists of people that never drink. Are you ready to join them?
There is one group of people who are not alcoholic, by any definition. This group consists of people that never drink. Are you ready to join them?
Hi freshstart,
Are you using the term "alcoholic" to describe the "state of being", thereby saying that someone who is secure in their sobriety is not "alcoholic" because they are not drinking and are securely sober?
If so then I think I get what you are saying:
There is one group of people who are Not" alcoholic"--"alcoholic" referring to their condition of still drinking alcohol Therefore those secure in their sobriety are not "alcoholic", but none the less still ALCOHOLICS ?
Well that is a least the way I could understand your meaning....because I have been sober for 25 years never intend to drink again, but still consider myself AN alcoholic. One is a noun the other a verb.
IMO I will always be AN alcoholic (noun). Alcoholic symbolizes the inability to know the results of where a first drink will take me.
Does that make sense?
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I get what you are saying, TrixMixer. You are an alcoholic because you consider the possibility of drinking again, and are mindful of your inability to determine the outcome of that eventuality. Makes sense.
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Originally Posted by dwtbd
Drinking is self motivated and self achieved, so is not drinking.
Originally Posted by dwtbd
(Self achieved for you perhaps, but I had lots of help from a variety of sources.)
Being a member of one group of a population vs being a member of the another has no bearing on one's situation. (If I have one drink the 'process' begins. I subsequently lose the power of choice and I drink till drunkenness.)You 'process alcohol' the way You do, there is no choice. I may 'process' or metabolize alcohol differently from someone else, but that changes nothing for me, (yes, it changes nothing FOR YOU) I 'process' it the way I 'process' it(.)
Btw without actual medical testing , how do you determine which percentile group you are in? (If I fall down and my leg hurts, and when I attempt to get up I cannot walk, I can assume I have injured my leg. I don't need medical testing to tell me this.)
I choose not to drink. Those who choose not to drink make the same choice I do. (Well not exactly.) The choice is self motivated. (Yours is self motivated, and you are qualified to speak for yourself. Mine is not entirely self motivated. You see I have a certain degree of freedom from the bondage of self. Everyone is not the same, but I do appreciate that what you are saying applies to you.)
I doubt this really an argument about semantics, I think the real debate is how or by what mechanisms do humans make choices and what 'forces' control such choices. (I agree, though I believe 'control' is not quite the right word. 'Influence' seems more appropriate.)
Being a member of one group of a population vs being a member of the another has no bearing on one's situation. (If I have one drink the 'process' begins. I subsequently lose the power of choice and I drink till drunkenness.)You 'process alcohol' the way You do, there is no choice. I may 'process' or metabolize alcohol differently from someone else, but that changes nothing for me, (yes, it changes nothing FOR YOU) I 'process' it the way I 'process' it(.)
Btw without actual medical testing , how do you determine which percentile group you are in? (If I fall down and my leg hurts, and when I attempt to get up I cannot walk, I can assume I have injured my leg. I don't need medical testing to tell me this.)
I choose not to drink. Those who choose not to drink make the same choice I do. (Well not exactly.) The choice is self motivated. (Yours is self motivated, and you are qualified to speak for yourself. Mine is not entirely self motivated. You see I have a certain degree of freedom from the bondage of self. Everyone is not the same, but I do appreciate that what you are saying applies to you.)
I doubt this really an argument about semantics, I think the real debate is how or by what mechanisms do humans make choices and what 'forces' control such choices. (I agree, though I believe 'control' is not quite the right word. 'Influence' seems more appropriate.)
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Originally Posted by dwtbd
awuh
Choice without self, is imposition.
If you are somehow free of self, are you free to decide who controls you ?
Choice without self, is imposition.
If you are somehow free of self, are you free to decide who controls you ?
For me it’s less about who influences that choice than what influences that choice. I attempt, as much as possible, to make choices driven by principle. This often seems to fly in the face of my own apparent self-interest. However, because I believe that the world as a whole will be better off if I lead a principle driven life, I am (often) able to accomplish this.
This gives me a certain freedom from the boundaries of self, and with that freedom has come a wonderful new perspective.
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If you saw someone shooting up heroin, and you were not shooting up heroin, which of you has the problem with the drug?!?
DoubleDragons,
this, i think, is the crux of the conversation and where views and experiences diverge to the point of having nothing in common any more, it seems.
when i speak of myself as an alcoholic even after several years sober, clearly i'm not speaking to now having a problem with the drug.
this is where it gets to the "ism" Boleo refers to.
these two twains seem never to meet.
different tracks entirely
DoubleDragons,
this, i think, is the crux of the conversation and where views and experiences diverge to the point of having nothing in common any more, it seems.
when i speak of myself as an alcoholic even after several years sober, clearly i'm not speaking to now having a problem with the drug.
this is where it gets to the "ism" Boleo refers to.
these two twains seem never to meet.
different tracks entirely
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Some definitions of alcoholic can get a bit silly. I have heard a few people suggest that if a person can stop on their own then they were never a real alcoholic to begin with. How does how a person finally throws in the towel have anything to do with it? That whole notion makes less than zero sense to me.
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It seems there are many types of alcoholic these days and a good many can stop on their own and good for them!
For a certain type of alcoholic, one who has the "phenomenon of craving" that kicks in after the first drink, leading to uncontrolled drinking, ingestion of alcohol in any form at all may have dire consequences. By phenomenon of craving I mean that upon taking a drink the individual is overcome by a complusion to drink more and more, that is absolutely beyond his power to control.
It would, therefore, be foolhardy in the extreme for that type of alcoholic to conclude, by virtue of his not drinking, that he is no longer alcoholic. Even with the most solid belief that a lifetime choice has been made and even with a guarantee that this choice will hold good, there is still the risk that, via medicine, food, social skulduggery (someone thinks its funny to spike your drink), mouthwash, indeed there are many ways an individual could accidentally consume alcohol and trigger the craving.
An alcoholic of this type can NEVER safely ingest alcohol and he would be foolish indeed to forget that and not make certain that all he consumes is alcohol free.
For a certain type of alcoholic, one who has the "phenomenon of craving" that kicks in after the first drink, leading to uncontrolled drinking, ingestion of alcohol in any form at all may have dire consequences. By phenomenon of craving I mean that upon taking a drink the individual is overcome by a complusion to drink more and more, that is absolutely beyond his power to control.
It would, therefore, be foolhardy in the extreme for that type of alcoholic to conclude, by virtue of his not drinking, that he is no longer alcoholic. Even with the most solid belief that a lifetime choice has been made and even with a guarantee that this choice will hold good, there is still the risk that, via medicine, food, social skulduggery (someone thinks its funny to spike your drink), mouthwash, indeed there are many ways an individual could accidentally consume alcohol and trigger the craving.
An alcoholic of this type can NEVER safely ingest alcohol and he would be foolish indeed to forget that and not make certain that all he consumes is alcohol free.
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
It seems there are many types of alcoholic these days and a good many can stop on their own and good for them!
For a certain type of alcoholic, one who has the "phenomenon of craving" that kicks in after the first drink, leading to uncontrolled drinking, ingestion of alcohol in any form at all may have dire consequences. By phenomenon of craving I mean that upon taking a drink the individual is overcome by a complusion to drink more and more, that is absolutely beyond his power to control.
It would, therefore, be foolhardy in the extreme for that type of alcoholic to conclude, by virtue of his not drinking, that he is no longer alcoholic. Even with the most solid belief that a lifetime choice has been made and even with a guarantee that this choice will hold good, there is still the risk that, via medicine, food, social skulduggery (someone thinks its funny to spike your drink), mouthwash, indeed there are many ways an individual could accidentally consume alcohol and trigger the craving.
An alcoholic of this type can NEVER safely ingest alcohol and he would be foolish indeed to forget that and not make certain that all he consumes is alcohol free.
For a certain type of alcoholic, one who has the "phenomenon of craving" that kicks in after the first drink, leading to uncontrolled drinking, ingestion of alcohol in any form at all may have dire consequences. By phenomenon of craving I mean that upon taking a drink the individual is overcome by a complusion to drink more and more, that is absolutely beyond his power to control.
It would, therefore, be foolhardy in the extreme for that type of alcoholic to conclude, by virtue of his not drinking, that he is no longer alcoholic. Even with the most solid belief that a lifetime choice has been made and even with a guarantee that this choice will hold good, there is still the risk that, via medicine, food, social skulduggery (someone thinks its funny to spike your drink), mouthwash, indeed there are many ways an individual could accidentally consume alcohol and trigger the craving.
An alcoholic of this type can NEVER safely ingest alcohol and he would be foolish indeed to forget that and not make certain that all he consumes is alcohol free.
Great Post, Gottalife!
This is exactly the kind of alcoholic I am , thus even with years of sobriety I am still scared s------- about ever taking a drink again. I was lucky the first time I would have to be out of my mind to take the chance.
This is what I was trying to convey to freshstart--once an alcoholic (no matter how many years sober) I am still an alcoholic because although no longer CRAVE alcohol , taking that first drink would have unlimited consequences..one of them being a drunk again.
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Healing
From "A Lifetime Process":
"I have more problems than alcohol . . . alcohol is only a symptom of a more pervasive disease. When I stopped drinking I began a lifetime process of recovery from unruly emotions, painful relationships, and unmanageable situations.
This process is too much for most of us without help from a Higher Power and our friends in the Fellowship. . . . One day at a time, almost imperceptibly, I healed."
1990 AAWS, Inc.; Daily Reflections, pg. 105
From "A Lifetime Process":
"I have more problems than alcohol . . . alcohol is only a symptom of a more pervasive disease. When I stopped drinking I began a lifetime process of recovery from unruly emotions, painful relationships, and unmanageable situations.
This process is too much for most of us without help from a Higher Power and our friends in the Fellowship. . . . One day at a time, almost imperceptibly, I healed."
1990 AAWS, Inc.; Daily Reflections, pg. 105
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Originally Posted by ImReadyToQuit
Alcoholism isn't a disease.. It's a behaviour..
From Consumer Reports:
In November 1988, legislature stating that the" disabling effects of chronic alcoholism shall not be considered to be the result of Willful Misconduct" became law.
Can we please move past the "I am morally reckless and Chose to be a drunk".
IMO I frankly do not care if it's a disease or just a bad habit. The fact that there are withdrawal symptoms when one stops drinking tells me it is a physiological condition---maybe even a DISEASE.
So really? You think it is just a behavioral shortcoming?
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I think this thread has outlived the period of its usefulness, at least to the OP 
It's now progressing along the more natural rules of the internet.
I like the word 'affliction' as a descriptor even better today than yesterday...
It's now progressing along the more natural rules of the internet.
I like the word 'affliction' as a descriptor even better today than yesterday...
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This is exactly the kind of alcoholic I am , thus even with years of sobriety I am still scared s------- about ever taking a drink again.
I am trying to describe a state of unconditional and permanent sobriety. No matter what, it will never happen, it can never happen. Alcohol will never be part of my life under any circumstance. In addition, nothing needs to happen or continue to happen to remain sober. This doesn't fit into any definition of addiction or dependence.
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
I understand this, and I think this falls into the group of folks that are sober, but continue to obsessed, or scared sh-tless, or however you wish to describe a preoccupation with consumption (or anti consumption) of alcohol. This seems to me to be a conditional sobriety because it is marked by fear of relapse. I can see how this fits into the definition of alcoholism.
I am trying to describe a state of unconditional and permanent sobriety. No matter what, it will never happen, it can never happen. Alcohol will never be part of my life under any circumstance. In addition, nothing needs to happen or continue to happen to remain sober. This doesn't fit into any definition of addiction or dependence.
I am trying to describe a state of unconditional and permanent sobriety. No matter what, it will never happen, it can never happen. Alcohol will never be part of my life under any circumstance. In addition, nothing needs to happen or continue to happen to remain sober. This doesn't fit into any definition of addiction or dependence.
LOL! is there such a definitive state?? Wish I could find it . Is it in the US?
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Originally Posted by foolsgold66
I think this thread has outlived the period of its usefulness, at least to the OP
It's now progressing along the more natural rules of the internet.
I like the word 'affliction' as a descriptor even better today than yesterday...
It's now progressing along the more natural rules of the internet.
I like the word 'affliction' as a descriptor even better today than yesterday...
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by TrixMixer
Your right Foolsgold. I'm getting cranky!
Wasn't directed at you specifically. In fact, had I chosen to REALLY reenter the discussion at this point, I would have looped it back around in a way that would REALLY have made others mad. I suppose I substituted my slightly snarky general commentary on thread direction instead...
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