Choice vs. Powerlessness
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: a spiritual vortex, Colorado
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Tristan
that all is well and good for changing a habit
not my experience regarding addiction
And, as i have gently pointed out, the concept of 'yourself' is a scientifically unproven entity- your reliance upon such an unproveable 'source' for you 'willpower'[nother unproveable] is just another set of subjective beliefs, logically, rationally and biologically no different than my reliance on a Hiogher Power to change my life.
i can now see, however, why you took such offense at feeling semantically entrapped by me....
re the unmanageability of behavior. Are you telling me that your entire life is run from a Spock, "if A, then B" logical consequence point of view? If you are arguing from a 'results test', then you cannot deny that my life was unmanageable- the results 'prove' that.
If, on the other hand, you are making the case that all behavior is logic generated, then you are so far behind the curve of accepted human psychology that it's well,.... for lack of a better word, laughable.
My experience is this: I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps. I know this is anecdotal, subjective 'evidence' -circular as well, but you guys have yet to move past tautological definitions for your base references- it also rather meets the logical test of 'if A then B'
mackat
Tristan
that all is well and good for changing a habit
not my experience regarding addiction
And, as i have gently pointed out, the concept of 'yourself' is a scientifically unproven entity- your reliance upon such an unproveable 'source' for you 'willpower'[nother unproveable] is just another set of subjective beliefs, logically, rationally and biologically no different than my reliance on a Hiogher Power to change my life.
i can now see, however, why you took such offense at feeling semantically entrapped by me....
re the unmanageability of behavior. Are you telling me that your entire life is run from a Spock, "if A, then B" logical consequence point of view? If you are arguing from a 'results test', then you cannot deny that my life was unmanageable- the results 'prove' that.
If, on the other hand, you are making the case that all behavior is logic generated, then you are so far behind the curve of accepted human psychology that it's well,.... for lack of a better word, laughable.
My experience is this: I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps. I know this is anecdotal, subjective 'evidence' -circular as well, but you guys have yet to move past tautological definitions for your base references- it also rather meets the logical test of 'if A then B'
mackat
Tristan
that all is well and good for changing a habit
not my experience regarding addiction
And, as i have gently pointed out, your concept of 'yourself' is a scientifically unproven entity- your reliance upon such an unproveable 'source' for you 'willpower' [another unproveable] is just another set of subjective beliefs, logically, rationally and biologically no different than my reliance on a Higher Power to change my life.
i can now see, however, why you took such offense at feeling semantically entrapped by me....
re the unmanageability of behavior. Are you telling me that your entire life is run from a Spock, "if A, then B" logical consequence point of view? If you are arguing from a 'results test', then you cannot deny that my life was unmanageable- the results 'prove' that.
If, on the other hand, you are making the case that all behavior is logic generated, then you are so far behind the curve of accepted human psychology that it's well,.... for lack of a better word, laughable.
My experience is this: I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps. I know this is anecdotal, subjective 'evidence' -circular as well, but you guys have yet to move past tautological definitions for your base references- it also rather meets the logical test of 'if A then B'
mackat
that all is well and good for changing a habit
not my experience regarding addiction
And, as i have gently pointed out, the concept of 'yourself' is a scientifically unproven entity- your reliance upon such an unproveable 'source' for you 'willpower'[nother unproveable] is just another set of subjective beliefs, logically, rationally and biologically no different than my reliance on a Hiogher Power to change my life.
i can now see, however, why you took such offense at feeling semantically entrapped by me....
re the unmanageability of behavior. Are you telling me that your entire life is run from a Spock, "if A, then B" logical consequence point of view? If you are arguing from a 'results test', then you cannot deny that my life was unmanageable- the results 'prove' that.
If, on the other hand, you are making the case that all behavior is logic generated, then you are so far behind the curve of accepted human psychology that it's well,.... for lack of a better word, laughable.
My experience is this: I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps. I know this is anecdotal, subjective 'evidence' -circular as well, but you guys have yet to move past tautological definitions for your base references- it also rather meets the logical test of 'if A then B'
mackat
Tristan
that all is well and good for changing a habit
not my experience regarding addiction
And, as i have gently pointed out, the concept of 'yourself' is a scientifically unproven entity- your reliance upon such an unproveable 'source' for you 'willpower'[nother unproveable] is just another set of subjective beliefs, logically, rationally and biologically no different than my reliance on a Hiogher Power to change my life.
i can now see, however, why you took such offense at feeling semantically entrapped by me....
re the unmanageability of behavior. Are you telling me that your entire life is run from a Spock, "if A, then B" logical consequence point of view? If you are arguing from a 'results test', then you cannot deny that my life was unmanageable- the results 'prove' that.
If, on the other hand, you are making the case that all behavior is logic generated, then you are so far behind the curve of accepted human psychology that it's well,.... for lack of a better word, laughable.
My experience is this: I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps. I know this is anecdotal, subjective 'evidence' -circular as well, but you guys have yet to move past tautological definitions for your base references- it also rather meets the logical test of 'if A then B'
mackat
Tristan
that all is well and good for changing a habit
not my experience regarding addiction
And, as i have gently pointed out, your concept of 'yourself' is a scientifically unproven entity- your reliance upon such an unproveable 'source' for you 'willpower' [another unproveable] is just another set of subjective beliefs, logically, rationally and biologically no different than my reliance on a Higher Power to change my life.
i can now see, however, why you took such offense at feeling semantically entrapped by me....
re the unmanageability of behavior. Are you telling me that your entire life is run from a Spock, "if A, then B" logical consequence point of view? If you are arguing from a 'results test', then you cannot deny that my life was unmanageable- the results 'prove' that.
If, on the other hand, you are making the case that all behavior is logic generated, then you are so far behind the curve of accepted human psychology that it's well,.... for lack of a better word, laughable.
My experience is this: I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps. I know this is anecdotal, subjective 'evidence' -circular as well, but you guys have yet to move past tautological definitions for your base references- it also rather meets the logical test of 'if A then B'
mackat
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Tristan
I like the way you guys are amending the first Step to read, "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, after we had taken that first drink..."
But that's not what that Step is about, is it? Because what follows is "...and that our lives had become unmanageable." That indicates that the person's behavior had spun out of control. The first Step is talking about drinking at all.
You are not, in fact, powerless over whether or not to take the first drink, and several of you have admitted it.
Those of you who are sober today have yourselves to thank!
Regards,
Tristan
But that's not what that Step is about, is it? Because what follows is "...and that our lives had become unmanageable." That indicates that the person's behavior had spun out of control. The first Step is talking about drinking at all.
You are not, in fact, powerless over whether or not to take the first drink, and several of you have admitted it.
Those of you who are sober today have yourselves to thank!
Regards,
Tristan
:spectacle
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Location: California
Posts: 233
Tristan, I think you know what we are saying, you just want to be difficult. But just in case you really are confused as your last post indicates, Alcohol cannot possibly be a problem if one never drinks it. So obviously step one is talking about alcohol. Use and abuse thereof AND the logical consequences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan
Dan,
You have an understanding of the concept that differs from (what I believe) was the actual intent of the first step. You believe that you are powerless over the effect that alcohol has over you. This is probably true. But you really do have control (power) over whether or not you drink.
This was from another thread where you indicate that you do understand about powerlessness as AA defines it. But I'll rrestate it, I am powerless over alcohol AFTER IT IS IN MY BODY. I am NOT powerless over alcohol before I drink it. Hence the expression 'It is the first drink that gets you drunk.' This is what AA teaches.
This verges on the absurd. RR people seem to think we AA's are saying that powerlessness means that if we walk down the supermarket isle and see some liquor bottles then we are doomed to drink them. Because we just cant seem to resist our urges or the mere fact that I see alcohol means that I must drink it. Use your head man. I dont know where you got your info on AA but I suggest you get a better understanding of what Aa is really about.
Question: Have you attended AA meetings or read our Big Book?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan
Dan,
You have an understanding of the concept that differs from (what I believe) was the actual intent of the first step. You believe that you are powerless over the effect that alcohol has over you. This is probably true. But you really do have control (power) over whether or not you drink.
This was from another thread where you indicate that you do understand about powerlessness as AA defines it. But I'll rrestate it, I am powerless over alcohol AFTER IT IS IN MY BODY. I am NOT powerless over alcohol before I drink it. Hence the expression 'It is the first drink that gets you drunk.' This is what AA teaches.
This verges on the absurd. RR people seem to think we AA's are saying that powerlessness means that if we walk down the supermarket isle and see some liquor bottles then we are doomed to drink them. Because we just cant seem to resist our urges or the mere fact that I see alcohol means that I must drink it. Use your head man. I dont know where you got your info on AA but I suggest you get a better understanding of what Aa is really about.
Question: Have you attended AA meetings or read our Big Book?
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
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Originally Posted by Ninerfan
Tristan, I'm not telling anyone they are powerless. I'm telling you that I am powerless AFTER I TAKE THE FIRST DRINK. Before I take the first one I have many choices just not afterwards. That is MY experience. That is what happens to me.
snip
snip
I appreciate that you are speaking of your own experience, and not generalizing about others, as are Jon and others. It seems that this concept is highly individual.
I know I've mentioned this example before: one of my employees is a long-time AA'er who avoids food cooked with alcohol, products containing it, etc., because of an extreme view of her own powerlessness--she believes that ingesting any alcohol may 'set her off' on a binge. I have to assume this was something she heard in early sobriety, perhaps to emphasize the tenuous nature of her abstinence.
I see a contradiction, or at least a tension, between powerlessness and choice, but Patsy has aptly described how she has reconciled them.
Don S
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
In my Big Book, the first step goes like this: "We addmitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanagable." I asked myself, what does powerless mean? It means I can't control my actions, once I've consumed alcohol!
There are two operative words in the first step. Powerless and Unmanagable. I asked myself, "Have I ever done anything after consuming alcohol that I wouldn't normally do? The answer was "yes." The first step doesn't say anything about alcohol making my life unmanagable. Unmanagability is a completely different idea. The word "WE" in the first step refers to the 100 or so original people who laid down their ideas in the Big Book which suggests that if I do what "They" did, I can get sober and stay sober. Was my life unmanagable? You bet!! It became unmanagable over a long period of time due to the fact that I had made certain choices in order to accomodate my desire to drink. I was in no way drunk all the time, although near the end of my drinking, alcohol had become my best friend, and I'd become a daily drinker to maintain my ability to cope with the unmanagability.
Today I am not powerless over alcohol because I don't consume alcohol. My life is still a bit unmanagable just as everyone's life is. Life is life and there are, from time to time, things tossed at me that cause problems until I decide how to handle them.
Some people choose to believe that the alcoholic can "will" himself to stop drinking. This alcoholic tried on many ocassions to use my "will" to control or stop drinking but my "will" was broken. I'd told myself so many times I wasn't going to drink today and drank anyway that after a while, I just didn't tell myself anything any more. I just drank.
Today I realize I have a choice whether or not to drink that first drink. When I was drinking, as far as I was concerned, I had no choice but to drink. It took some time in AA and people who had learned how not to drink to show me that I had choices and how to make them. Today I choose to give any credit due my not drinking to the Fellowship of AA and a Higher Power of my understanding. Nobody else has to understand what that means as long as I don't forget it.
Some intellectual types can sit around patting themselves on the back all day and take credit for their own sobriety, but I choose not to. I'm not that stong nor that smart. I'm just another drunk who hasn't had a drink in a while and whatever I'm doing is working for me so I'll just leave it alone.
There are two operative words in the first step. Powerless and Unmanagable. I asked myself, "Have I ever done anything after consuming alcohol that I wouldn't normally do? The answer was "yes." The first step doesn't say anything about alcohol making my life unmanagable. Unmanagability is a completely different idea. The word "WE" in the first step refers to the 100 or so original people who laid down their ideas in the Big Book which suggests that if I do what "They" did, I can get sober and stay sober. Was my life unmanagable? You bet!! It became unmanagable over a long period of time due to the fact that I had made certain choices in order to accomodate my desire to drink. I was in no way drunk all the time, although near the end of my drinking, alcohol had become my best friend, and I'd become a daily drinker to maintain my ability to cope with the unmanagability.
Today I am not powerless over alcohol because I don't consume alcohol. My life is still a bit unmanagable just as everyone's life is. Life is life and there are, from time to time, things tossed at me that cause problems until I decide how to handle them.
Some people choose to believe that the alcoholic can "will" himself to stop drinking. This alcoholic tried on many ocassions to use my "will" to control or stop drinking but my "will" was broken. I'd told myself so many times I wasn't going to drink today and drank anyway that after a while, I just didn't tell myself anything any more. I just drank.
Today I realize I have a choice whether or not to drink that first drink. When I was drinking, as far as I was concerned, I had no choice but to drink. It took some time in AA and people who had learned how not to drink to show me that I had choices and how to make them. Today I choose to give any credit due my not drinking to the Fellowship of AA and a Higher Power of my understanding. Nobody else has to understand what that means as long as I don't forget it.
Some intellectual types can sit around patting themselves on the back all day and take credit for their own sobriety, but I choose not to. I'm not that stong nor that smart. I'm just another drunk who hasn't had a drink in a while and whatever I'm doing is working for me so I'll just leave it alone.
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Originally Posted by Don S
I see a contradiction, or at least a tension, between powerlessness and choice, but Patsy has aptly described how she has reconciled them.
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don
could it be that both concepts- choice and powerlessness lie somewhere in that region that "free will' 'self awareness' 'sentience' and 'meaning -of-life' abide. The realm outside what our biological minds can deduce [and therefore what can be defined scientifically] and in that region i choose to call 'spiritual'?
mackat
could it be that both concepts- choice and powerlessness lie somewhere in that region that "free will' 'self awareness' 'sentience' and 'meaning -of-life' abide. The realm outside what our biological minds can deduce [and therefore what can be defined scientifically] and in that region i choose to call 'spiritual'?
mackat
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted by mackat
Tristan
that all is well and good for changing a habit
not my experience regarding addiction
And, as i have gently pointed out, the concept of 'yourself' is a scientifically unproven entity- your reliance upon such an unproveable 'source' for you 'willpower'[nother unproveable] is just another set of subjective beliefs, logically, rationally and biologically no different than my reliance on a Hiogher Power to change my life.
i can now see, however, why you took such offense at feeling semantically entrapped by me....
re the unmanageability of behavior. Are you telling me that your entire life is run from a Spock, "if A, then B" logical consequence point of view? If you are arguing from a 'results test', then you cannot deny that my life was unmanageable- the results 'prove' that.
If, on the other hand, you are making the case that all behavior is logic generated, then you are so far behind the curve of accepted human psychology that it's well,.... for lack of a better word, laughable.
My experience is this: I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps. I know this is anecdotal, subjective 'evidence' -circular as well, but you guys have yet to move past tautological definitions for your base references- it also rather meets the logical test of 'if A then B'
mackat
that all is well and good for changing a habit
not my experience regarding addiction
And, as i have gently pointed out, the concept of 'yourself' is a scientifically unproven entity- your reliance upon such an unproveable 'source' for you 'willpower'[nother unproveable] is just another set of subjective beliefs, logically, rationally and biologically no different than my reliance on a Hiogher Power to change my life.
i can now see, however, why you took such offense at feeling semantically entrapped by me....
re the unmanageability of behavior. Are you telling me that your entire life is run from a Spock, "if A, then B" logical consequence point of view? If you are arguing from a 'results test', then you cannot deny that my life was unmanageable- the results 'prove' that.
If, on the other hand, you are making the case that all behavior is logic generated, then you are so far behind the curve of accepted human psychology that it's well,.... for lack of a better word, laughable.
My experience is this: I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps. I know this is anecdotal, subjective 'evidence' -circular as well, but you guys have yet to move past tautological definitions for your base references- it also rather meets the logical test of 'if A then B'
mackat
I've replied about the concept of self having a physiological basis on the other thread. There is a difference between using faith and using reason. Even if 'reason' is subjective, it has a basis in observable and provable stuff. It is far different than relying on a higher power. I guess I need to know what you mean by 'faith' in all of these discussions.
I don't think anyone has said that all behavior is logic-generated. Much behavior is unhealthy or has costs which exceed the benefits. A basic premise of CBT is consciously, rationally (there's that word again!) recognizing the costs and changing the beliefs you have which continue to lead you to choose unhealthy behavior. The point is to use at least partially a rational basis for your recovery, instead of an entirely spiritual one.
An entirely rational basis? That varies by individuals, depending on the nature of their existing world views. So rather than proposing a dichotomy--it's either faith-based or reason-based--and rather than trying to assert that people who claim reason-based recovery are actually faith-based, I'd suggest we all recognize that it is a continuum.
I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps.
I hardly know where to begin with these statements. I guess the simplest response is that addicts and alcoholics die attempting nearly every program, and your observation does not correspond to the best available evidence about efficacy rates of different programs. I wonder what the point of these statements was.
Don S
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Originally Posted by mackat
don
could it be that both concepts- choice and powerlessness lie somewhere in that region that "free will' 'self awareness' 'sentience' and 'meaning -of-life' abide. The realm outside what our biological minds can deduce [and therefore what can be defined scientifically] and in that region i choose to call 'spiritual'?
mackat
could it be that both concepts- choice and powerlessness lie somewhere in that region that "free will' 'self awareness' 'sentience' and 'meaning -of-life' abide. The realm outside what our biological minds can deduce [and therefore what can be defined scientifically] and in that region i choose to call 'spiritual'?
mackat
Don
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Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Hi Don, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the only people that have posted in this thread that see a contradiction or a tension between powerlessness and choice are people that don't attend face to face meetings or adhere to the principals of AA. I pretty much layed out how I reconcile the two in my life in the other thread you responded to.
This is one of the most common issues mentioned by people who come to other programs after briefly looking at AA when they are seeking recovery options. It (and the 'religion' issue) drives people away from a program many of you believe might be beneficial.
Some of you reconcile it (you described this well, as has Niner and others). Others seem offended by the notion that substance abuse is a choice. Absolute terms like powerless and surrender, as well as the disease concept, all seem to remove choice as an explanation for addiction or as part of the mechanism of recovery. It is easy to see why a superficial review of AA principles would lead one to think that self-will and choice are not exactly among the foundations of the program.
Don S
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Location: Riverside, Ca.
Posts: 388
Originally Posted by Don S
I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps.
I hardly know where to begin with these statements. I guess the simplest response is that addicts and alcoholics die attempting nearly every program, and your observation does not correspond to the best available evidence about efficacy rates of different programs. I wonder what the point of these statements was.
Don S
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps.
I hardly know where to begin with these statements. I guess the simplest response is that addicts and alcoholics die attempting nearly every program, and your observation does not correspond to the best available evidence about efficacy rates of different programs. I wonder what the point of these statements was.
Don S
many of us were hard core drinkers, and have repeatedly tried quiting on our own without sucess, I for one left AA as my last option, I fought it tooth and nail for the 20 years I drank from the first time the judge sent me untill the bitter end, obviously I didn't die, but I did come very close before I was ready to give AA a try.
as for your evidence of efficancy rates for different programs, who knows?
we hav'nt been able to come up with anything concrete, how do you monitor anonymous people?
Oh by the way I'm back, I changed my mind about leaving this site, I hate conflict, I spent most of my life in conflict with people, so I guess when I see someone here to disrupt things, I get a little carried away, but it's better than when I was drinking, I havn't had to hit or strangle anybody in anger since I got sober, LOL but I am also NOBODIES doormat.
what were the two legitimate reasons Jon said we needed to have to be here again? help or be helped?
yeah that was it...............
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What we have heya is a failya to communicate.
"Cool Hand Luke"
It seems that you Don and Tristan are making this a choice between Choice and powerlessness. I don't see it that way. Both ideas, consepts, whatever are incorporated in the program as I understand it.
They both go hand in hand and that makes perfect sense to me. One does not cancel out the other. I did not choose to become powerless over alcohol, my body is allergic to it, and I am not powerless to choose healthy behaviors.....NOW. It wasn't always that way for me. i dont care for absoute terms myself but powerlessness applies to me inregards to alcohol. And surrenduring to that fact also goes against my grain but that was the only way I could make progress in our program. And this is not the big boogy man that many make it out to be. Trust me on this. Some just cant admit defeat and that a little ole liquid has them by the shorthairs but I did. And that is when my choices really opened up. By admitting powerlessness I have gained power. That doesn't make sense, I know. But remember I was prett desperate when I came into AA and this time I was willing to give it an honest try.
It isn't for everyone. Not everyone can understand these concepts that I take for granted and Don you have done more than most to point that out to me. I am very lucky that something finally clicked and I finally understood what was being said and could put it to use. That is what, I believe, helped me believe in our higher power concept.
Because on my own I never would have realized the seriousness of my condition and I might have died a miserabley lonely death. And today while not religious at all, I talk to the God of my uderstanding and my life seems to run better. People who have come to AA and gone away disheartened may or may not be back. They may or may not get it. But I would suggest to you Don and Tristan that the people you see who have tried AA haven't really. Or they just couldn't get it because they arent'wired that way.
And if they are constitutionally incapable of grasping this method then I hope they can get yours. But if they do, that fact alone does not make my method wrong. It just means it was wrong for them. Live and Let Live.
"Cool Hand Luke"
It seems that you Don and Tristan are making this a choice between Choice and powerlessness. I don't see it that way. Both ideas, consepts, whatever are incorporated in the program as I understand it.
They both go hand in hand and that makes perfect sense to me. One does not cancel out the other. I did not choose to become powerless over alcohol, my body is allergic to it, and I am not powerless to choose healthy behaviors.....NOW. It wasn't always that way for me. i dont care for absoute terms myself but powerlessness applies to me inregards to alcohol. And surrenduring to that fact also goes against my grain but that was the only way I could make progress in our program. And this is not the big boogy man that many make it out to be. Trust me on this. Some just cant admit defeat and that a little ole liquid has them by the shorthairs but I did. And that is when my choices really opened up. By admitting powerlessness I have gained power. That doesn't make sense, I know. But remember I was prett desperate when I came into AA and this time I was willing to give it an honest try.
It isn't for everyone. Not everyone can understand these concepts that I take for granted and Don you have done more than most to point that out to me. I am very lucky that something finally clicked and I finally understood what was being said and could put it to use. That is what, I believe, helped me believe in our higher power concept.
Because on my own I never would have realized the seriousness of my condition and I might have died a miserabley lonely death. And today while not religious at all, I talk to the God of my uderstanding and my life seems to run better. People who have come to AA and gone away disheartened may or may not be back. They may or may not get it. But I would suggest to you Don and Tristan that the people you see who have tried AA haven't really. Or they just couldn't get it because they arent'wired that way.
And if they are constitutionally incapable of grasping this method then I hope they can get yours. But if they do, that fact alone does not make my method wrong. It just means it was wrong for them. Live and Let Live.
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Not everyone can understand these concepts that I take for granted and Don you have done more than most to point that out to me. --Niner LOL! Glad I could be of service, Niner!
I have heard AA described as a program of attraction. Obviously many people are sent to it unwillingly, so they are unlikely to succeed at it. 'Really trying it' obviously includes either accepting the basic premises, or finding a way to adapt to them. We all agree that there are other programs out there for those unwilling or unable to do that.
Don S
Welcome back, Jay! Discussion can help both those reading and those discussing. I think anyone who had what I called the superficial understanding of powerlessness would be better informed by reading this thread. Where they go with that knowledge is up to them, but they've moved beyond that first impression that I was describing.
Don S
I have heard AA described as a program of attraction. Obviously many people are sent to it unwillingly, so they are unlikely to succeed at it. 'Really trying it' obviously includes either accepting the basic premises, or finding a way to adapt to them. We all agree that there are other programs out there for those unwilling or unable to do that.
Don S
Welcome back, Jay! Discussion can help both those reading and those discussing. I think anyone who had what I called the superficial understanding of powerlessness would be better informed by reading this thread. Where they go with that knowledge is up to them, but they've moved beyond that first impression that I was describing.
Don S
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Location: laughing at my avatar
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a long time ago while i was using i went to NA meetings regularly. i ran into a lot of nice people who were into the steps. all spouting principle about powerlessness. now, that meeting no longer exists with the exception of a mother and her daughter... the majority of them relapsed and died. i think its a given that they felt they were powerless over their doc, and its a given that they chose to go back to using again. kind of funny that im rocking on and choose not to use the steps... im leaning more towards "i have a choice whether to go out and use right now" but as for this moment, im not powerless over meth. im only powerless when im ingesting it in some way shape or form. so thats what i think. in a nutshell. welcome back jay!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Riverside, Ca.
Posts: 388
Thanks Dot
kind of hard to be powerless over something that is either sitting on a shelf, or in a bag somewhere, but when I ingest it, I do not stop, untill I either run out, or am locked up somewere. proved it to myself time after time for years.
kind of hard to be powerless over something that is either sitting on a shelf, or in a bag somewhere, but when I ingest it, I do not stop, untill I either run out, or am locked up somewere. proved it to myself time after time for years.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: laughing at my avatar
Posts: 1,636
right-o jay! but then i was thinking... if i get too close to "that shelf with the bag on it" or around it im in trouble. and if i was powerless over it why did i ever stop? i think it was God. but those are all questions that im okay with not having answers or explanations for. or i might talk myself into some more research! as long as i abstain ive got nothing to fear. so, i guess the choice is "will i go check out the shelf with the baggy on it?". sorry if im confusing. im confused, but i know what i mean.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Riverside, Ca.
Posts: 388
LOL
I was lucky there, I quit hundresds of times, but never stayed stopped,
but this time I came too in detox, and decieded hey I've been sober 5 days, maybe I'll try that AA, it hasn't turned me into MR. wonderfull, but I havn't had a drink since.
I was lucky there, I quit hundresds of times, but never stayed stopped,
but this time I came too in detox, and decieded hey I've been sober 5 days, maybe I'll try that AA, it hasn't turned me into MR. wonderfull, but I havn't had a drink since.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
I'm still not sure I've quit. I'm sure I didn't start yet today. that worked today, the dauu before that and so on for a while now. It'll probably work tomorrow too but that isn't here yet. Is that evidence? I know how I would answer that so if anyone didn't agree, I guess they would have to try that experiment for themselves eh?
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