Choice vs. Powerlessness
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15
Mackat, if you wanted to trap me into saying that I believe in a HP, why didn't you just come right out and say it? It didn't work. I don't believe in the AA God. And the concept of humans having souls (while it may be unprovable) is totally different than believing in a God who will do His work through you.
By saying that I have an inner self, I'm saying that I am in control of my actions, and I will get back on track for my own highest good.
I would never do a third step. I'm going to digress here and tell you why:
Although AA literature states that the interpretation of the nature of God is a personal matter, it makes it clear that any sense of spirituality must come from outside oneself. The main objective of the book Alcoholics Anonymous is stated as being "to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem" (AAWS, 1976a, p. 45). It also states that "any life run on self-will can hardly be a success" (p. 60).
I disagree with that. With the exception of a few years where I drank too much, I would say that the majority of my life has been a success. I believe that humans are inherently good, and I have mostly led a life where helping others has been at the foreground.
I stupidly got off track, then I got myself back on it.
Why is it important to you that I see things your way? I understand your way. It's not for me.
Regards,
Tristan
By saying that I have an inner self, I'm saying that I am in control of my actions, and I will get back on track for my own highest good.
I would never do a third step. I'm going to digress here and tell you why:
Although AA literature states that the interpretation of the nature of God is a personal matter, it makes it clear that any sense of spirituality must come from outside oneself. The main objective of the book Alcoholics Anonymous is stated as being "to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem" (AAWS, 1976a, p. 45). It also states that "any life run on self-will can hardly be a success" (p. 60).
I disagree with that. With the exception of a few years where I drank too much, I would say that the majority of my life has been a success. I believe that humans are inherently good, and I have mostly led a life where helping others has been at the foreground.
I stupidly got off track, then I got myself back on it.
Why is it important to you that I see things your way? I understand your way. It's not for me.
Regards,
Tristan
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
I also disagree with the quote from page 60, above!
There are many people who achieve sobriety without faith, without use of a higher power or any other external source of change, without going to meetings, without accepting a definition or concept of powerlessness, without believing that they have a disease (spiritual or otherwise).
Some of us believe that substance abuse is behavior, and that behavior can be changed. Some of us believe that it is in many ways a series of choices, and that stopping abuse of a substance primarily is a matter of learning to stop a compulsive behavior.
That's not to say it isn't difficult to change your beliefs and make those choices! But there are many sober people who are proof that it can be done. Statistics indicate that most people who quit drinking do it without any particular program, and that the spiritual/AA approach works for some, perhaps for many, but not for most people with substance abuse problems. What does work is a commitment to abstinence, regardless of how you arrive at it or sustain it.
Trying to describe other peoples' recoveries in the context and using the terminology of AA, to describe how they actually are (or 'might as well be') doing steps, how they really do believe they are powerless, etc., is similar to telling a non-religious person that they are religious and just don't know it.
Spirituality, religion, faith, and a higher power are not necessary to achieve sobriety. Some may believe they are necessary to have a happy or complete life; obviously others among us disagree.
Don S
There are many people who achieve sobriety without faith, without use of a higher power or any other external source of change, without going to meetings, without accepting a definition or concept of powerlessness, without believing that they have a disease (spiritual or otherwise).
Some of us believe that substance abuse is behavior, and that behavior can be changed. Some of us believe that it is in many ways a series of choices, and that stopping abuse of a substance primarily is a matter of learning to stop a compulsive behavior.
That's not to say it isn't difficult to change your beliefs and make those choices! But there are many sober people who are proof that it can be done. Statistics indicate that most people who quit drinking do it without any particular program, and that the spiritual/AA approach works for some, perhaps for many, but not for most people with substance abuse problems. What does work is a commitment to abstinence, regardless of how you arrive at it or sustain it.
Trying to describe other peoples' recoveries in the context and using the terminology of AA, to describe how they actually are (or 'might as well be') doing steps, how they really do believe they are powerless, etc., is similar to telling a non-religious person that they are religious and just don't know it.
Spirituality, religion, faith, and a higher power are not necessary to achieve sobriety. Some may believe they are necessary to have a happy or complete life; obviously others among us disagree.
Don S
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
I agree Don.
This agnostic with no faith in any god has found spirituality in the rooms of AA.
The concept of being powerless over the effects of alcohol if ingested, and the acceptance of that in my life, has given me the choice to not drink anymore.
Simple really. Just took me a long time to arrive at that conclusion.
This agnostic with no faith in any god has found spirituality in the rooms of AA.
The concept of being powerless over the effects of alcohol if ingested, and the acceptance of that in my life, has given me the choice to not drink anymore.
Simple really. Just took me a long time to arrive at that conclusion.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: a spiritual vortex, Colorado
Posts: 844
Tristan
apologies for that 3rd step remark. my intent was not to 'force God' on you- [brings up notions of monty python's spanish inquisition skits!]
my intent is to demonstrate that all of us operate in a world where we unconsciously or consciously operate out of belief systems. It sounds like you and Don both are people with strong, inner generated beliefs in your intuitive grasp of the concepts of self will, creativity, awareness, choice, sentience,meaning -of-life. I just felt compelled to point out that these are indeed belief systems based on subjective challengeable notions .
As is my own notion that lump all those 'unprovabables' into the category 'my spirituality'.
The three of us could not lead dynamic, creative, healthy, responsible, SOBER lives, if we had not resolved, for ourselves, the nature of these concepts.
I know that the god concept thingy can be distasteful. i gagged hard on it myself. And now i don't spin hard on it. I had someone get me to read from pp569-70 Big Book- "he finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life: that such a change could hardly have been brought by himself alone.....[they have] tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves."
my outy- your inny- heh! could this stuff be all around us!?
thanks 4 yur time- out to frame my last kitchen wall yah hoo!
mackat
apologies for that 3rd step remark. my intent was not to 'force God' on you- [brings up notions of monty python's spanish inquisition skits!]
my intent is to demonstrate that all of us operate in a world where we unconsciously or consciously operate out of belief systems. It sounds like you and Don both are people with strong, inner generated beliefs in your intuitive grasp of the concepts of self will, creativity, awareness, choice, sentience,meaning -of-life. I just felt compelled to point out that these are indeed belief systems based on subjective challengeable notions .
As is my own notion that lump all those 'unprovabables' into the category 'my spirituality'.
The three of us could not lead dynamic, creative, healthy, responsible, SOBER lives, if we had not resolved, for ourselves, the nature of these concepts.
I know that the god concept thingy can be distasteful. i gagged hard on it myself. And now i don't spin hard on it. I had someone get me to read from pp569-70 Big Book- "he finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life: that such a change could hardly have been brought by himself alone.....[they have] tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves."
my outy- your inny- heh! could this stuff be all around us!?
thanks 4 yur time- out to frame my last kitchen wall yah hoo!
mackat
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
Powerlessness, Revisited:
Just one of hundreds of examples....
Driving toward Downtown L.A. without a care in the world. Heading for work-a great job as General Manager of a Limo company. Sober a little over a year and the thought crosses my mind that a "wake-up" sure wouldn't hurt. But I keep driving, and arrive at work.
The next day the voice is a bit louder, and ,more manipulative.
The day after that I have a pretty good list in my mind as to why I deserve "just a little."
Eventually this thought blocks out ALL OTHER SELF_PRESERVATION thoughts.
And so I pick up my "little bit"
11 days later in ICU I tell myself "How did this happen???"
It was just a little, and I was right back to where I used to be-and worse.
Once ingested,whether it be booze or drugs, I have no control, no power, as to how the story will end.
I am powerless over alcohol and drugs.
Not because someone told me I was, but because my experience has proven it to be true.
Driving toward Downtown L.A. without a care in the world. Heading for work-a great job as General Manager of a Limo company. Sober a little over a year and the thought crosses my mind that a "wake-up" sure wouldn't hurt. But I keep driving, and arrive at work.
The next day the voice is a bit louder, and ,more manipulative.
The day after that I have a pretty good list in my mind as to why I deserve "just a little."
Eventually this thought blocks out ALL OTHER SELF_PRESERVATION thoughts.
And so I pick up my "little bit"
11 days later in ICU I tell myself "How did this happen???"
It was just a little, and I was right back to where I used to be-and worse.
Once ingested,whether it be booze or drugs, I have no control, no power, as to how the story will end.
I am powerless over alcohol and drugs.
Not because someone told me I was, but because my experience has proven it to be true.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Don S
Hi, Jon,
To me, that kind of explains why 'obsessive' and 'compulsive' are so often together in the same sentence.
What do you do to keep the voice from becoming obsessive?
Don S
To me, that kind of explains why 'obsessive' and 'compulsive' are so often together in the same sentence.
What do you do to keep the voice from becoming obsessive?
Don S
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Choice v. powerless is not really an accurate description for me. For me it is not either/or. I am powerless over alcohol only after I drink it. But prior to that, I have all kinds of choices. I'm about as powerful as anyone to make choices or not make choices. I'm in control of what I do and what goes in my body. Some of my choices are good, some bad. But I never make the choice to drink alcohol. That is off the table from now on. Why? Because I cannot control how much I drink after the first one. Alcohol combined with my body chemistry turns me into a drunk. I am powerless over the effects of alcohol. That is what makes me an alcoholic.
If, after that first drink, I could CHOOSE to stop and not look back, and not obsess about the next drink then I would be a normal drinker. After 26 years of TRYING to do that, I stumbled on the idea of my own personal powerlessness in regards to alcohol. I personally cannot drink without triggering a drunk. That is all I need to know. But my mind wants to forget that very important fact. I am powerless over alcohol-fact. I want to think that after 11+ years of sobriety that I can now handle just one. I sometimes daydream about booze, I romance the drink and I'm not afraid of these thoughts anymore. I know what I know and life has gotten pretty good without drinking, so why screw it up.
Why screw it up? Several of us do, even knowing what I know about drinking and after being sober for a long time people go back out. I think it is because of what is said in Chapter 3. 'To control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker.'
Something else was said in the BB and I'll paraphrase, 'There will come a time when no human power wil keep us from drinking.' That is the main rreason AA stresses A belief in a higher power. So that in that time when I really want to drink so bad that my better judgement is pushed aside, a power greater than myself will step in to stop me. I dont know if that is true or not. I've never been tested. But the benefits of establishing a conscious contact with a higher power help me in other ways. Day to day living ways. There are other things in life that I have found difficult. Having a higher power helps me deal with them.
If, after that first drink, I could CHOOSE to stop and not look back, and not obsess about the next drink then I would be a normal drinker. After 26 years of TRYING to do that, I stumbled on the idea of my own personal powerlessness in regards to alcohol. I personally cannot drink without triggering a drunk. That is all I need to know. But my mind wants to forget that very important fact. I am powerless over alcohol-fact. I want to think that after 11+ years of sobriety that I can now handle just one. I sometimes daydream about booze, I romance the drink and I'm not afraid of these thoughts anymore. I know what I know and life has gotten pretty good without drinking, so why screw it up.
Why screw it up? Several of us do, even knowing what I know about drinking and after being sober for a long time people go back out. I think it is because of what is said in Chapter 3. 'To control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker.'
Something else was said in the BB and I'll paraphrase, 'There will come a time when no human power wil keep us from drinking.' That is the main rreason AA stresses A belief in a higher power. So that in that time when I really want to drink so bad that my better judgement is pushed aside, a power greater than myself will step in to stop me. I dont know if that is true or not. I've never been tested. But the benefits of establishing a conscious contact with a higher power help me in other ways. Day to day living ways. There are other things in life that I have found difficult. Having a higher power helps me deal with them.
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
Originally Posted by DangerousDan
Don't know about Jon Don, but when that happens to me, before the voice builds to a crescendo that might prove very loud, I tell someone about it, usually another addict that knows the sound of that voice. And somehow, every time I do that, I come out of the experience a little wiser. And sober.
I have some other options as well, but this is all about recognition. And when Niner says
Choice v. powerless is not really an accurate description for me. For me it is not either/or. I am powerless over alcohol only after I drink it. But prior to that, I have all kinds of choices.
I have to let other people know whats going on with me. I have to take my meds. I have to participate in a fellowship....those are all choices that keep the obsession at bay.
Remember, once it has become an obsession, its not if, its when. I need to make good use of my power before I pick up...
Originally Posted by Jon
Remember, once it has become an obsession, its not if, its when. I need to make good use of my power before I pick up...
that applies to so many things in my life.
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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RE: obsessive and compulsive
i have ocd, now ... does that mean if i dont take meds i will relapse? i went medless for almost 5 months (bad idea), but did not relapse. just sorta fell apart. i see the words obsessive and compulsive used a lot. are you talking about the disorder or just people who have obsessive and compulsive thoughts? hope that wasnt off topic.
as far as being powerless, if i take one line, hit, shot, its off to the races and God help me i hope that never happens. no telling if id make it back, now i dont do NA or steps but i believe in my heart that if i had any power over crystal meth id still be using... there wouldnt be a problem then. happy frickin birthday to anyone who can use in moderation, but when it comes to using ... period ... im truly powerless.
i have ocd, now ... does that mean if i dont take meds i will relapse? i went medless for almost 5 months (bad idea), but did not relapse. just sorta fell apart. i see the words obsessive and compulsive used a lot. are you talking about the disorder or just people who have obsessive and compulsive thoughts? hope that wasnt off topic.
as far as being powerless, if i take one line, hit, shot, its off to the races and God help me i hope that never happens. no telling if id make it back, now i dont do NA or steps but i believe in my heart that if i had any power over crystal meth id still be using... there wouldnt be a problem then. happy frickin birthday to anyone who can use in moderation, but when it comes to using ... period ... im truly powerless.
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: out there...
Posts: 2,653
Obsession once having got the thought stuck in my head, I cannot just make the thought go away...
compulsion .. upon acting on the thought I have to repeat the action again and again until outside circumstances beyond my control interfere with the cycle ( ie: jails, institutions, and death)
compulsion .. upon acting on the thought I have to repeat the action again and again until outside circumstances beyond my control interfere with the cycle ( ie: jails, institutions, and death)
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15
The above posts are once again delving into feelings of powerlessness, and I want to remind folks about what we (Don S. and I) were saying earlier.
Telling people that they are powerless to stop (even after one drink) is not helpful, and often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. All of us probably at one time or another DID stop after one or two, but it was EXTREMELY uncomfortable.
Perhaps the only thing that people do not have power over in this scenario is the way drinking makes them feel. Some people seem to really like the high that drinking creates, and some people do not. This still does not mean you are powerless to stop.
Drinking alcohol is still a behavior. People can control their behaviors, regardless of how any particular behavior makes them feel.
Regards,
Tristan
Telling people that they are powerless to stop (even after one drink) is not helpful, and often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. All of us probably at one time or another DID stop after one or two, but it was EXTREMELY uncomfortable.
Perhaps the only thing that people do not have power over in this scenario is the way drinking makes them feel. Some people seem to really like the high that drinking creates, and some people do not. This still does not mean you are powerless to stop.
Drinking alcohol is still a behavior. People can control their behaviors, regardless of how any particular behavior makes them feel.
Regards,
Tristan
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Tristan, I'm not telling anyone they are powerless. I'm telling you that I am powerless AFTER I TAKE THE FIRST DRINK. Before I take the first one I have many choices just not afterwards. That is MY experience. That is what happens to me. If someone wants to think they are not powerless over alcohol, after it is drunk, that is their business. Perhaps they are not alcoholic. One of the features of being an alcoholic is loss of control of how much one drinks. But that is up to the individual to decide.
So, if anyone has doubts or wants to prove they can handle booze then step up to the bar and down a few then stop. See what happens. Judge for yourself how much power you then have.
So, if anyone has doubts or wants to prove they can handle booze then step up to the bar and down a few then stop. See what happens. Judge for yourself how much power you then have.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
I don't know Tristan.
I see what you're trying to say and respect your viewpoint.
Maybe you have to be an alcoholic or an addict to understand my viewpoint.
Drinking is a behavior.
Slamming heroine is a behavior.
Telling me that what I say is not helpful is a behavior.
I see what you're trying to say and respect your viewpoint.
Maybe you have to be an alcoholic or an addict to understand my viewpoint.
Drinking is a behavior.
Slamming heroine is a behavior.
Telling me that what I say is not helpful is a behavior.
For myself, admitting and accepting my powerlessness has given me the very thing that I lacked........ choice.
Today I am still powerless over alcohol, and I am still powerless over people, places and things. I am not however powerless over my own choices today...thank you God, AA, and the 12 Step of recovery with all of you wonderful people who are working, applying and practicing these spiritual principles in your own life, and passing it on.
Thanks for another day of sobriety, and the ability to make choices
Love
Patsy
Today I am still powerless over alcohol, and I am still powerless over people, places and things. I am not however powerless over my own choices today...thank you God, AA, and the 12 Step of recovery with all of you wonderful people who are working, applying and practicing these spiritual principles in your own life, and passing it on.
Thanks for another day of sobriety, and the ability to make choices
Love
Patsy
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15
I like the way you guys are amending the first Step to read, "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, after we had taken that first drink..."
But that's not what that Step is about, is it? Because what follows is "...and that our lives had become unmanageable." That indicates that the person's behavior had spun out of control. The first Step is talking about drinking at all.
You are not, in fact, powerless over whether or not to take the first drink, and several of you have admitted it.
Those of you who are sober today have yourselves to thank!
Regards,
Tristan
But that's not what that Step is about, is it? Because what follows is "...and that our lives had become unmanageable." That indicates that the person's behavior had spun out of control. The first Step is talking about drinking at all.
You are not, in fact, powerless over whether or not to take the first drink, and several of you have admitted it.
Those of you who are sober today have yourselves to thank!
Regards,
Tristan
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