Choice vs. Powerlessness
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
This dis-ease centers in the mind.
For myself when I was drinking I had a moment of clarity when I realized that I couldn't drink because my life became unmanageable by me, when I drank. So I quit drinking and I realized that I couldn't not drink, because my life became unmanageable by me when I was not drinking. So I drank, and once again I realized that I couldn't drink because my life became unmanageable by me when I drank. So once again I quit drinking and I realized that I couldn't not drink, because my life became unmanageable by me when I didn't drink. Add nauseum.
This dis-ease centers in the mind. The obsession with alcohol controlled all my thoughts and therefore my behavior until I could once again get a drink. Once I got a drink the obsession left, and the physical compulsion took over, insuring that I would continue to drink MORE. Sure I could quit drinking, and the obsession would become relentless, overwhelming and controlled all my thoughts and all actions. I didn't have a problem quitting, I had a problem not starting. lol
The first step is the only step that mentions alcohol, and there is a very good reason for that, because getting honest, open or willing while drinking simply isn't possible. Because without a drink my mind obsessed to the point where I couldn't THINK of anything else but a drink and my behavior was centered around the obession to get a drink. The first Step is the only one that I have to do perfectly, the other 11 Steps in my life......those are the Steps that helped change the person that I brought through those doors of AA. The anxious, irritable, discontent, angry, lost, feeling less then, full of self-pity, sad, and broken person that I had become with a drink or without a drink.
What matters to me is that I learned that stopping drinking, changing that behavior, would do nothing to change what the real problem is... me, my thinking and my attitudes. I wanted what is offered here in the halls of AA, emotional sobriety and being comfortable in my own skin, and that is an inside job.
Now I don't expect anyone else who doesn't want this simple program to understand it at all. It took "time" lots of "time" for me to get here to the halls of AA, and it took "time" to change the only thing I could change... me and my attitudes. See the only one who has to understand why I attend AA meetings and work the 12 Steps in my life and pass it on... is God, and me
Love
Patsy
For myself when I was drinking I had a moment of clarity when I realized that I couldn't drink because my life became unmanageable by me, when I drank. So I quit drinking and I realized that I couldn't not drink, because my life became unmanageable by me when I was not drinking. So I drank, and once again I realized that I couldn't drink because my life became unmanageable by me when I drank. So once again I quit drinking and I realized that I couldn't not drink, because my life became unmanageable by me when I didn't drink. Add nauseum.
This dis-ease centers in the mind. The obsession with alcohol controlled all my thoughts and therefore my behavior until I could once again get a drink. Once I got a drink the obsession left, and the physical compulsion took over, insuring that I would continue to drink MORE. Sure I could quit drinking, and the obsession would become relentless, overwhelming and controlled all my thoughts and all actions. I didn't have a problem quitting, I had a problem not starting. lol
The first step is the only step that mentions alcohol, and there is a very good reason for that, because getting honest, open or willing while drinking simply isn't possible. Because without a drink my mind obsessed to the point where I couldn't THINK of anything else but a drink and my behavior was centered around the obession to get a drink. The first Step is the only one that I have to do perfectly, the other 11 Steps in my life......those are the Steps that helped change the person that I brought through those doors of AA. The anxious, irritable, discontent, angry, lost, feeling less then, full of self-pity, sad, and broken person that I had become with a drink or without a drink.
What matters to me is that I learned that stopping drinking, changing that behavior, would do nothing to change what the real problem is... me, my thinking and my attitudes. I wanted what is offered here in the halls of AA, emotional sobriety and being comfortable in my own skin, and that is an inside job.
Now I don't expect anyone else who doesn't want this simple program to understand it at all. It took "time" lots of "time" for me to get here to the halls of AA, and it took "time" to change the only thing I could change... me and my attitudes. See the only one who has to understand why I attend AA meetings and work the 12 Steps in my life and pass it on... is God, and me
Love
Patsy
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: a spiritual vortex, Colorado
Posts: 844
hi don:
re:I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps.
I hardly know where to begin with these statements. I guess the simplest response is that addicts and alcoholics die attempting nearly every program, and your observation does not correspond to the best available evidence about efficacy rates of different programs. I wonder what the point of these statements was.
Don S
this is just my ESH don, i was careful to say "i have seen"-
mackat
re:I have seen more than a few addicts and alcoholics who have died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction.
Everyone i have seen in long term recovery has done it thru the 12 steps.
I hardly know where to begin with these statements. I guess the simplest response is that addicts and alcoholics die attempting nearly every program, and your observation does not correspond to the best available evidence about efficacy rates of different programs. I wonder what the point of these statements was.
Don S
this is just my ESH don, i was careful to say "i have seen"-
mackat
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: a spiritual vortex, Colorado
Posts: 844
hi don
"re:Hi, mackat,
I've replied about the concept of self having a physiological basis on the other thread. There is a difference between using faith and using reason. Even if 'reason' is subjective, it has a basis in observable and provable stuff. It is far different than relying on a higher power. I guess I need to know what you mean by 'faith' in all of these discussions."
i posted response there to the physiology site there.
My definition of faith is the same as belief- concepts which remain outside the realm of scientific or mathematical proof
"I don't think anyone has said that all behavior is logic-generated. Much behavior is unhealthy or has costs which exceed the benefits. A basic premise of CBT is consciously, rationally (there's that word again!) recognizing the costs and changing the beliefs you have which continue to lead you to choose unhealthy behavior. The point is to use at least partially a rational basis for your recovery, instead of an entirely spiritual one. "
cost benefit? - hmmmm- now, in genetic terms, if I have and use large quantities of, say cocaine, and this insures me the greatest number of sexual partners and therefore the greatest numbers of progeny, by evolutionary standards this would be the most rational course of action for me to take?
"An entirely rational basis? That varies by individuals, depending on the nature of their existing world views. So rather than proposing a dichotomy--it's either faith-based or reason-based--and rather than trying to assert that people who claim reason-based recovery are actually faith-based, I'd suggest we all recognize that it is a continuum. "
to use your own wording: no
mackat
"re:Hi, mackat,
I've replied about the concept of self having a physiological basis on the other thread. There is a difference between using faith and using reason. Even if 'reason' is subjective, it has a basis in observable and provable stuff. It is far different than relying on a higher power. I guess I need to know what you mean by 'faith' in all of these discussions."
i posted response there to the physiology site there.
My definition of faith is the same as belief- concepts which remain outside the realm of scientific or mathematical proof
"I don't think anyone has said that all behavior is logic-generated. Much behavior is unhealthy or has costs which exceed the benefits. A basic premise of CBT is consciously, rationally (there's that word again!) recognizing the costs and changing the beliefs you have which continue to lead you to choose unhealthy behavior. The point is to use at least partially a rational basis for your recovery, instead of an entirely spiritual one. "
cost benefit? - hmmmm- now, in genetic terms, if I have and use large quantities of, say cocaine, and this insures me the greatest number of sexual partners and therefore the greatest numbers of progeny, by evolutionary standards this would be the most rational course of action for me to take?
"An entirely rational basis? That varies by individuals, depending on the nature of their existing world views. So rather than proposing a dichotomy--it's either faith-based or reason-based--and rather than trying to assert that people who claim reason-based recovery are actually faith-based, I'd suggest we all recognize that it is a continuum. "
to use your own wording: no
mackat
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
'Evolutionary standards' apply to the population, not the individual. We don't base our decisions, rational or otherwise, on the effect they will have on our ability to reproduce our species (at least not entirely!).
I am not speaking in genetic terms when I discuss the rational or irrational basis of our decisions. I am referring to their effects on ourselves. And it's worth pointing out that the same decision have variable effects, all at the same time--the combination of pleasure, mental relief, enhanced sexuality or sociability, etc., may occur at the same time that we are damaging our organs, upsetting family members, and losing our jobs.
The first thing recommended at SMART Recovery is to do a cost-benefit analysis. The point isn't that you're going to draw lines on a sheet of paper, write the costs on one side and the benefits on the other, and go 'AHA! I should quit drinking because the balance sheet says so!' The point is to recognize the different and simultaneous consequences of behavior, and to start developing tools to work towards eliminating the costs--perhaps by finding other ways to achieve the perceived benefits. Or by recognizing the irrational beliefs behind the perception of those benefits.
There is an emotional and a rational basis to most decisions--hence my comment about it not being a dichotomy. Behavioral therapy works on changing the emotional basis to achieve a more rational outcome. The underlying premise is that we CAN change our beliefs--in particular, about the role of alcohol or drugs in our lives. Or about the stress factors that may underlie the use of drugs or alcohol. It also can apply to any other compulsive behavior which is having unhealthy consequences.
Why do you think they died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction? What might have prevented their deaths?
Don S
I am not speaking in genetic terms when I discuss the rational or irrational basis of our decisions. I am referring to their effects on ourselves. And it's worth pointing out that the same decision have variable effects, all at the same time--the combination of pleasure, mental relief, enhanced sexuality or sociability, etc., may occur at the same time that we are damaging our organs, upsetting family members, and losing our jobs.
The first thing recommended at SMART Recovery is to do a cost-benefit analysis. The point isn't that you're going to draw lines on a sheet of paper, write the costs on one side and the benefits on the other, and go 'AHA! I should quit drinking because the balance sheet says so!' The point is to recognize the different and simultaneous consequences of behavior, and to start developing tools to work towards eliminating the costs--perhaps by finding other ways to achieve the perceived benefits. Or by recognizing the irrational beliefs behind the perception of those benefits.
There is an emotional and a rational basis to most decisions--hence my comment about it not being a dichotomy. Behavioral therapy works on changing the emotional basis to achieve a more rational outcome. The underlying premise is that we CAN change our beliefs--in particular, about the role of alcohol or drugs in our lives. Or about the stress factors that may underlie the use of drugs or alcohol. It also can apply to any other compulsive behavior which is having unhealthy consequences.
Why do you think they died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction? What might have prevented their deaths?
Don S
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: a spiritual vortex, Colorado
Posts: 844
good eve don
its bed time for mackats- gonna curl up w/some other mind modeling text- or maybe Rumi's poetry- i'll do a real post tomorrow- the rest of your post deserves a considered look and response. ty
"rfe:Why do you think they died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction? What might have prevented their deaths?"
it really does seem tied up with some fundamental inability to think/feel that life is worthwhile. Or, in my brother's case, [he has a few more months, hepc, still active alcoholic- w/ a scrip morphine patch] its more like the 'payoff' is in ego reward- among all those other loser outlaws, he's the 'best' loser. My latest returning sponsee was within 2 minutes of brain dead OD a few weeks ago- his next door neighbor knew CPR- ... anyway, his life was all in top form: went from janitor to manager of an elite condo complex, had steady relationship, lots of good physical recreational outlets , supportive and close family of origin....but after knee surgery, his lil vicodin 'habit' went to 30+ a day and then he just 'lost count'....
nite
mackat
its bed time for mackats- gonna curl up w/some other mind modeling text- or maybe Rumi's poetry- i'll do a real post tomorrow- the rest of your post deserves a considered look and response. ty
"rfe:Why do you think they died trying to 'will' or 'think' themselves out of addiction? What might have prevented their deaths?"
it really does seem tied up with some fundamental inability to think/feel that life is worthwhile. Or, in my brother's case, [he has a few more months, hepc, still active alcoholic- w/ a scrip morphine patch] its more like the 'payoff' is in ego reward- among all those other loser outlaws, he's the 'best' loser. My latest returning sponsee was within 2 minutes of brain dead OD a few weeks ago- his next door neighbor knew CPR- ... anyway, his life was all in top form: went from janitor to manager of an elite condo complex, had steady relationship, lots of good physical recreational outlets , supportive and close family of origin....but after knee surgery, his lil vicodin 'habit' went to 30+ a day and then he just 'lost count'....
nite
mackat
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