Choice vs. Powerlessness
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Choice vs. Powerlessness
Originally posted by Mackat
heh dan , thought i'd move this over here:
tristan- i know its long, but i dont think i can explain this w/o gettin to th fundamentals
Of necessity, this topic requires a certain background on the view of human nature.
My view is that i am a holistic creature. Biological evolution has selected for a brain which evolved out of the necessities of foraging/hunting/tribal groups. Manipulation of the environment meant that our ancestors survived and begat. Our social skills in manipulating other humans, kept our lineages intact by selecting for mates, holding family groups intact, forming support groups for mutual aid and , most importantly, receiving and transmitting knowledge.
It is important to note, that these genetic predispositions, whether identified as male dominance, resource competiveness, fat and sugar cravings or racism are NOT genetic imperatives, nor are they all traits that are appropriate for the realities of the modern human condition.
I know this is a pretty ‘quick and dirty’ overview of modern genetic evolution. If you need the source citations, i’ll be glad to oblige
Now as regards addiction. One of the first views of addiction by any ousider is “how can you do this so obviously damaging behavior to yourself. can’t you see the consequences?� We then often get lectured about instant vs. deferred gratification...about the irrationality of our behavior...
Here’s the rub folks.
THIS IS NOT IRRATIONAL BEHAVIOR.
nope.
And here is the ‘why’:
First of all, genetic predisposition does not confer a Spock like view of concrete, falsifiable logic theory as the fundamental underlayment of human thinking. We are excellent historical frequency computators, but the old ‘gamblers fallacy’, fear of airplane travel vs car travel, and all sorts of examples by Martin Braine, Peter Wason demonstrate that we are not so good at straight line logic problems.
Secondly, single event probability cannot be computed as mathematical statements- most probability theorists conclude that they are meaningless. From a genetic survival point of view, deciding that the odds don’t apply to me, is ouside any selective data my forebears could have accessed, and is just as valid , logically.
Thirdly- deferring gratification, only makes sense when the future is accounted for. Even tho we may be sure we will not die in the next hour, we also know we will die sometime. Deferring consumption for an unknown future would not always be a survival payoff for our nomadic ancestors.; Within many subcultures, life can be statistically ephemeral- we’ll get to that topic later- and this almost mandates that we discount the future. In these circumstances, to spend not save, to take risks, ARE the rational, adaptive response to life.
Fourth, constructing a life based on rational and probability habits faces this mind blowing reality: the changing world. There are no guarantees about the future. Ask the oil futures speculator or the steel worker retiree or the home insurance companies of florida and california. If their totally focused, profit based, data rich efforts still fall short as the result of an unknoweable tomorrow, what is the reality of my forecasts?
Finally, we have the same predispositioned neural circuitry for pleasure sensation as does the rat who accesses a lever which sparks an electrode planted in the medial forebrain bundle. It will bypass chances for food, water or sex, until it drops of exhaustion. Evolution has programmed us not to do drugs or booze, but to use our pleasure seeking circuits to seek sugars ,fats , sex etc as part of our survival adaptations- pushing that lever is a rational reaction to that adaptive wiring.
So my using is not counter intuitive. It is not , within the context of the evolved human mind, irrational.
It can be seen as a rational response to the reality of a changing , unknoweable future.
It is an understandable reaction to the naturally wired-in pleasure seeking brain circuitry.
And if i view my existence as meaningless within the context of the reality of uncertainty, it can be seen as logical.
So i come to my dilemma. All these rational, logical, understandable thought processes have left me with a life of using which is insane. I have taken the wonderous impulse to manipulate the world, the adaptive traits of influencing the humans i come into contact with, and twisted it into an ego centric pattern of expecting my whims to be the center of your world. I take the pleasure seeking impulses and keep pushing the lever. I demand that the world NOT change.
Most fundamentally , i do not feel that i am meaningful....
To establish a sense of belonging transcends the reality i see all around me.
I look into the night sky and am crushed by my insignificance.
I expect the generations to follow each other.
and then
I bury my son.
I fall in love, then i abandon
I fall in love, then am abandoned
I know life is all around me,yet
I go numb for years.
There is no rational mechanism to self discovery
My mind is a beautiful, survival enhancing organ.
It has never been programmed as a guaranteed corridor to the Truth.
My dilemma is this:
Left to my own devices, i can find no reason to be here.
Gooch’s Void.
mack’s powerlessness.
enter spirituality
heh dan , thought i'd move this over here:
tristan- i know its long, but i dont think i can explain this w/o gettin to th fundamentals
Of necessity, this topic requires a certain background on the view of human nature.
My view is that i am a holistic creature. Biological evolution has selected for a brain which evolved out of the necessities of foraging/hunting/tribal groups. Manipulation of the environment meant that our ancestors survived and begat. Our social skills in manipulating other humans, kept our lineages intact by selecting for mates, holding family groups intact, forming support groups for mutual aid and , most importantly, receiving and transmitting knowledge.
It is important to note, that these genetic predispositions, whether identified as male dominance, resource competiveness, fat and sugar cravings or racism are NOT genetic imperatives, nor are they all traits that are appropriate for the realities of the modern human condition.
I know this is a pretty ‘quick and dirty’ overview of modern genetic evolution. If you need the source citations, i’ll be glad to oblige
Now as regards addiction. One of the first views of addiction by any ousider is “how can you do this so obviously damaging behavior to yourself. can’t you see the consequences?� We then often get lectured about instant vs. deferred gratification...about the irrationality of our behavior...
Here’s the rub folks.
THIS IS NOT IRRATIONAL BEHAVIOR.
nope.
And here is the ‘why’:
First of all, genetic predisposition does not confer a Spock like view of concrete, falsifiable logic theory as the fundamental underlayment of human thinking. We are excellent historical frequency computators, but the old ‘gamblers fallacy’, fear of airplane travel vs car travel, and all sorts of examples by Martin Braine, Peter Wason demonstrate that we are not so good at straight line logic problems.
Secondly, single event probability cannot be computed as mathematical statements- most probability theorists conclude that they are meaningless. From a genetic survival point of view, deciding that the odds don’t apply to me, is ouside any selective data my forebears could have accessed, and is just as valid , logically.
Thirdly- deferring gratification, only makes sense when the future is accounted for. Even tho we may be sure we will not die in the next hour, we also know we will die sometime. Deferring consumption for an unknown future would not always be a survival payoff for our nomadic ancestors.; Within many subcultures, life can be statistically ephemeral- we’ll get to that topic later- and this almost mandates that we discount the future. In these circumstances, to spend not save, to take risks, ARE the rational, adaptive response to life.
Fourth, constructing a life based on rational and probability habits faces this mind blowing reality: the changing world. There are no guarantees about the future. Ask the oil futures speculator or the steel worker retiree or the home insurance companies of florida and california. If their totally focused, profit based, data rich efforts still fall short as the result of an unknoweable tomorrow, what is the reality of my forecasts?
Finally, we have the same predispositioned neural circuitry for pleasure sensation as does the rat who accesses a lever which sparks an electrode planted in the medial forebrain bundle. It will bypass chances for food, water or sex, until it drops of exhaustion. Evolution has programmed us not to do drugs or booze, but to use our pleasure seeking circuits to seek sugars ,fats , sex etc as part of our survival adaptations- pushing that lever is a rational reaction to that adaptive wiring.
So my using is not counter intuitive. It is not , within the context of the evolved human mind, irrational.
It can be seen as a rational response to the reality of a changing , unknoweable future.
It is an understandable reaction to the naturally wired-in pleasure seeking brain circuitry.
And if i view my existence as meaningless within the context of the reality of uncertainty, it can be seen as logical.
So i come to my dilemma. All these rational, logical, understandable thought processes have left me with a life of using which is insane. I have taken the wonderous impulse to manipulate the world, the adaptive traits of influencing the humans i come into contact with, and twisted it into an ego centric pattern of expecting my whims to be the center of your world. I take the pleasure seeking impulses and keep pushing the lever. I demand that the world NOT change.
Most fundamentally , i do not feel that i am meaningful....
To establish a sense of belonging transcends the reality i see all around me.
I look into the night sky and am crushed by my insignificance.
I expect the generations to follow each other.
and then
I bury my son.
I fall in love, then i abandon
I fall in love, then am abandoned
I know life is all around me,yet
I go numb for years.
There is no rational mechanism to self discovery
My mind is a beautiful, survival enhancing organ.
It has never been programmed as a guaranteed corridor to the Truth.
My dilemma is this:
Left to my own devices, i can find no reason to be here.
Gooch’s Void.
mack’s powerlessness.
enter spirituality
Originally posted by Tristan
Mackat,
What you wrote does not make sense. I challenge anyone here to try and figure it out. This is highly indicative of the circular and nonsensical logic that one experiences in a 12 Step Program. Confusing, to say the least.
Mackat,
What you wrote does not make sense. I challenge anyone here to try and figure it out. This is highly indicative of the circular and nonsensical logic that one experiences in a 12 Step Program. Confusing, to say the least.
Tristan
re 'does not make sense' - which part? aren't you really saying that they don't make sense to YOU?- these are all the conclusions of a very well documented cognitive model..right out of M.I.T. I am not suggesting that you don't have choice in your life. I am merely pointing out that the mind, as adapted thru evolutionary selection, is constrained to certain patterned computational states. These allow us to think in cause-effect, analysis of small-as-part-of -the-large concepts.
But it absolutely follows that this wonderful, problem solving device is still a body organ- kidneys don't make insulin. The mind does not contain a mystical 'truth about self awareness' mechanism. Sentience, will,and meaning of life questions do not, will not ever yield to our mind's investigation.
To stop an addict/alcoholic from using, by appealing to their willpower [choice-free will] is, i repeat, merely another appeal to faith in a power outside themselves. It is entirely your right to believe whichever non scientific entity you find as useful.
But you cannot make a case for this 'belief' based on accepted scientific explanations for how the mind works.
In the same vein, i don't make a case for my 'belief' in a spiritual connection as being based in falsifiable scientific theory.
It IS all complex. Genetic evolutionary science, language acquisition and computational modeling of thought are gnarly subjects. However, they DO yield themselves to our brain's abilities. If you and I are going to dive into the underlying assumptions about powerlessness, we each are going to need a willingness to do our homework. Otherwise, these are just appeals to our respective and irrational belief systems...you know, anecdotal evidence, historical traditions - all that fuzzy logic.
one of the huge gifts i have been given in 8 yrs of sobriety, is that i can fearlessly read complex tomes- and then have the willingness to reread them til i can understand. Not to bad for an old used to be brawling drunk!!!
mackat
Last edited by Morning Glory; 05-21-2004 at 04:44 PM. Reason: off topic-created new thread
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Okay, your mind and your brain can certainly become programmed to repeat pleasure seeking behavior.
That does not mean that you cannot control yourself. Whatever compulsions or impulses your brain sends you can still be overriden by your mind/or higher self.
NO person who abuses alcohol is powerless to stop doing it. Plenty of people quit IMMEDIATELY when faced with dire consequences.
Rats don't stop pushing the lever because they can't read x-rays that say they have liver cancer. And rat wives don't leave because they are tired of the beer farts in the night and living on rat welfare.
Regards,
Tristan
That does not mean that you cannot control yourself. Whatever compulsions or impulses your brain sends you can still be overriden by your mind/or higher self.
NO person who abuses alcohol is powerless to stop doing it. Plenty of people quit IMMEDIATELY when faced with dire consequences.
Rats don't stop pushing the lever because they can't read x-rays that say they have liver cancer. And rat wives don't leave because they are tired of the beer farts in the night and living on rat welfare.
Regards,
Tristan
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Tristan
NO person who abuses alcohol is powerless to stop doing it.
And the rat analogy... tres amusing.
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
Originally Posted by Tristan
NO person who abuses alcohol is powerless to stop doing it. Plenty of people quit IMMEDIATELY when faced with dire consequences.
And the vast majority of those people never even see a door to an AA meeting.
But there are those of us, from educated to spiritual, wealthy to blue collar that simply could not quit on their own.
Maybe for you. But if my brain is "broken", then any solutions coming from that same brain are probably broken as well. Sick can't fix sick! I need some new information, some new people in my life, to help me adapt to a new way of living.
Obsessions. Compulsions. All coming from the very brain you say can make me stop. And the idea that if I pick up, there are no guarantees as to what will happen next (powerlessness).
My brain can be re=programmed. But it's not something I can do on my own.
If you have tried the "I'm not going to drink/use anymore, ever, program, and it didn't work for you, try one of the others. Just don't stop trying.
Whether through AA, Therapy, SMART, Psych-meds and Counseling...all have this in common: it's not just me trying to fix me. There is vital human contact. We are not alone.
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I understand what Mack writes, though I admit having to read through it twice just to make sure. I've sat around bars discussing these very ideas, I've let these theories lay as the foundation for my life, I've embraced nihilism, I've been crushed by own insignificance and "powerlessness" in the universe, I've drank to celebrate it and I've drank to lament it.
The fact that the report came out of MIT and is a well-respected analysis of human brain function means absolutely nothing. In twenty years another report will come out, boasting another analysis of the human mind that proves it wrong or flawed or, at the least, overlooking something very crucial.
Intrepretation--it can be your friend or it can be your enemy. I'm not trying to say that the report doesn't have merit. I found it particularly gripping; I love to read ideas like this! The world tends to make a lot more sense to me if I leave it up to the scientists to explain it.
It's little comfort though, really. Scientists can't explain the ways of the world and the report doesn't seem to explain why some people throw their lives away using, while others prioritize and are able to keep the pleasures/vices in check.
Intrepretation, especially when reading things in AA (the program which I'm using), can be your friend or your enemy.
Powerless? Well, if I was completely powerless over alcohol, it seems I wouldn't ever make it into an AA meeting in the first place....I would never escape.....I would never be able to stop drinking.
I MUST have some power over alcohol.
I have no definition of a higher power, I'm craving drink terribly at the moment, but am getting ready to head to a meeting right now. Does that mean I'm not powerless over alcohol?
Does that mean I'm not a true alcoholic?
It seems that my own mind resists allowing my self to be defined under these umbrellas.
I definitely think I have some self control where alcohol is concerned but I also believe that I'm severely addicted to it and there is no doubt that my life became difficult/miserable to manage with it.
Does that mean AA is the wrong program for me? Of course not. I will go to this meeting and will leave feeling more power in myself to manage my life without drinking.
Quote:
To establish a sense of belonging transcends the reality i see all around me.
I look into the night sky and am crushed by my insignificance.
I expect the generations to follow each other.
and then
I bury my son.
I fall in love, then i abandon
I fall in love, then am abandoned
I know life is all around me,yet
I go numb for years.
There is no rational mechanism to self discovery
My mind is a beautiful, survival enhancing organ.
It has never been programmed as a guaranteed corridor to the Truth.
My dilemma is this:
Left to my own devices, i can find no reason to be here.
Gooch’s Void.
mack’s powerlessness.
enter spirituality
It's not a good idea for me to relate this to my sobriety, but, as a side note...I find this very moving to read. Reading it makes my heart feel heavy. It reminds me of why I can't wrap my mind around anything and feel confident that I have an even remotely viable answer.
The fact that the report came out of MIT and is a well-respected analysis of human brain function means absolutely nothing. In twenty years another report will come out, boasting another analysis of the human mind that proves it wrong or flawed or, at the least, overlooking something very crucial.
Intrepretation--it can be your friend or it can be your enemy. I'm not trying to say that the report doesn't have merit. I found it particularly gripping; I love to read ideas like this! The world tends to make a lot more sense to me if I leave it up to the scientists to explain it.
It's little comfort though, really. Scientists can't explain the ways of the world and the report doesn't seem to explain why some people throw their lives away using, while others prioritize and are able to keep the pleasures/vices in check.
Intrepretation, especially when reading things in AA (the program which I'm using), can be your friend or your enemy.
Powerless? Well, if I was completely powerless over alcohol, it seems I wouldn't ever make it into an AA meeting in the first place....I would never escape.....I would never be able to stop drinking.
I MUST have some power over alcohol.
I have no definition of a higher power, I'm craving drink terribly at the moment, but am getting ready to head to a meeting right now. Does that mean I'm not powerless over alcohol?
Does that mean I'm not a true alcoholic?
It seems that my own mind resists allowing my self to be defined under these umbrellas.
I definitely think I have some self control where alcohol is concerned but I also believe that I'm severely addicted to it and there is no doubt that my life became difficult/miserable to manage with it.
Does that mean AA is the wrong program for me? Of course not. I will go to this meeting and will leave feeling more power in myself to manage my life without drinking.
Quote:
To establish a sense of belonging transcends the reality i see all around me.
I look into the night sky and am crushed by my insignificance.
I expect the generations to follow each other.
and then
I bury my son.
I fall in love, then i abandon
I fall in love, then am abandoned
I know life is all around me,yet
I go numb for years.
There is no rational mechanism to self discovery
My mind is a beautiful, survival enhancing organ.
It has never been programmed as a guaranteed corridor to the Truth.
My dilemma is this:
Left to my own devices, i can find no reason to be here.
Gooch’s Void.
mack’s powerlessness.
enter spirituality
It's not a good idea for me to relate this to my sobriety, but, as a side note...I find this very moving to read. Reading it makes my heart feel heavy. It reminds me of why I can't wrap my mind around anything and feel confident that I have an even remotely viable answer.
Vision of Hope
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Living on This side of the green!!
Posts: 1,057
To say that I can merely just say "I'm done, I wont't ever pick up again", cool, go enjoy your life and good luck to you. This is a disease just like cancer, ok, so I deside I dont want to have cancer, can I just stop, NO. True that I dont believe that just the drugs are the problem, they are only a symptom of my powerlessnes and I have to learn how to get a grip of life on its own terms. I can relate to someone else that is going down this road right along with me more that the church goer that has no clue about this disease. Am I going to tell the old lady that askes me "How are you doing today", that I am having a bad day, I feel like using, and expect that she could undersand where I'm coming from and be able to relate. Most people that come to a 12 step program to get better have lost control of their lives, and our best thinking is what got us here. We learn that MANY of our predisecors before us have learned to live through working the 12 steps and live good lives free from the use of chemicals. ANYONE WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND, I'm sorry that you feel that way, It is a simple way of life to better yourself and dealing with life.
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heh rednose
the last line IS where i get it! That is the third step. i absolutely believe that spirituality is where i go to get recovery.
this post is here to refute the few who seem to feel that all the answers should be originated by our human thought . The point is that my thinking got me here, that our minds can only take us so far and that only some power outside myself can bring about the fundamental change needed to recover from this disease.
I have been doing AA for 8 wonderous years-it saved my life and if my message does not contain the hope and joy i have found in this program then i am guilty of not giving away what was so freely given to me. Please pm me if you have the slightest doubt about my committment to this program!
the last line IS where i get it! That is the third step. i absolutely believe that spirituality is where i go to get recovery.
this post is here to refute the few who seem to feel that all the answers should be originated by our human thought . The point is that my thinking got me here, that our minds can only take us so far and that only some power outside myself can bring about the fundamental change needed to recover from this disease.
I have been doing AA for 8 wonderous years-it saved my life and if my message does not contain the hope and joy i have found in this program then i am guilty of not giving away what was so freely given to me. Please pm me if you have the slightest doubt about my committment to this program!
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Originally Posted by mackat
heh rednose
the last line IS where i get it! That is the third step. i absolutely believe that spirituality is where i go to get recovery.
this post is here to refute the few who seem to feel that all the answers should be originated by our human thought . The point is that my thinking got me here, that our minds can only take us so far and that only some power outside myself can bring about the fundamental change needed to recover from this disease.
I have been doing AA for 8 wonderous years-it saved my life and if my message does not contain the hope and joy i have found in this program then i am guilty of not giving away what was so freely given to me. Please pm me if you have the slightest doubt about my committment to this program!
the last line IS where i get it! That is the third step. i absolutely believe that spirituality is where i go to get recovery.
this post is here to refute the few who seem to feel that all the answers should be originated by our human thought . The point is that my thinking got me here, that our minds can only take us so far and that only some power outside myself can bring about the fundamental change needed to recover from this disease.
I have been doing AA for 8 wonderous years-it saved my life and if my message does not contain the hope and joy i have found in this program then i am guilty of not giving away what was so freely given to me. Please pm me if you have the slightest doubt about my committment to this program!
Perhaps I just envy you your spirituality. I myself have not defined my higher power, which I guess means that I simply can't accept being powerless to anything.
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Dear Godonmyside,
Participating in substance abuse is not a disease "just like cancer." I don't happen to believe it is a disease at all.
Even AA'ers will tell you that it is a disease of "perception," or a "spiritual disease."
But this is an entirely different issue from "powerlessness." Please be aware that not everyone believes in what your Program teaches, and when you phrase things as absolutes, "This is a disease..." etc., etc., others will disagree. Doctors cannot even agree that this is a disease, so why not just say "in my opinion?"
Regards,
Tristan
Participating in substance abuse is not a disease "just like cancer." I don't happen to believe it is a disease at all.
Even AA'ers will tell you that it is a disease of "perception," or a "spiritual disease."
But this is an entirely different issue from "powerlessness." Please be aware that not everyone believes in what your Program teaches, and when you phrase things as absolutes, "This is a disease..." etc., etc., others will disagree. Doctors cannot even agree that this is a disease, so why not just say "in my opinion?"
Regards,
Tristan
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Hello All,
Here's another thought: AA and the Big Book states " There is one who has all power, that one is God, may you find him now."
Well if God is all powerful then God could choose to not make any of us alcoholics. Attending AA would make no sense at all because God is in control anyway being all powerful so we aren't able to change anything. And why would anyone choose to worship a God that is so cruel that he would torment an individual by giving them such a disease? If God is "all powerful" What's the point in self motivation? God's gonna do whatever he/she wants?
Regards,
Tristan
Here's another thought: AA and the Big Book states " There is one who has all power, that one is God, may you find him now."
Well if God is all powerful then God could choose to not make any of us alcoholics. Attending AA would make no sense at all because God is in control anyway being all powerful so we aren't able to change anything. And why would anyone choose to worship a God that is so cruel that he would torment an individual by giving them such a disease? If God is "all powerful" What's the point in self motivation? God's gonna do whatever he/she wants?
Regards,
Tristan
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tristan
i actually am very comfortable with the disease concept [if it swims like a duck, quacks like a duck...]
re: your post:"that does not mean you cannot control yourself" - have you come up with just how you come up with the notion of "self"?
I'm betting its a faith-based notion.
hugs,
mackat
i actually am very comfortable with the disease concept [if it swims like a duck, quacks like a duck...]
re: your post:"that does not mean you cannot control yourself" - have you come up with just how you come up with the notion of "self"?
I'm betting its a faith-based notion.
hugs,
mackat
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Dear Rednose,
It's okay to realize that you are powerless over a lot of things. For instance, you can't control how people react to things, or other people at all for that matter. You also can't control the weather, Anna Nicole's weight, or the world...mwuhahahahahaha!
You can control whether or not you drink again. You can decide not to do it ever again, no matter what.
Once you do that, you will feel much better.
Regards,
Tristan
It's okay to realize that you are powerless over a lot of things. For instance, you can't control how people react to things, or other people at all for that matter. You also can't control the weather, Anna Nicole's weight, or the world...mwuhahahahahaha!
You can control whether or not you drink again. You can decide not to do it ever again, no matter what.
Once you do that, you will feel much better.
Regards,
Tristan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 23
Here's my view on my powerlessness. I choose to use God's help to stay sober. I choose to believe in my own abilities to stay sober. I choose to utilize the fellowship of AA in my quest to stay sober. I choose to participate in SR to help me stay sober. Am I powerless? Of course not!
RD
RD
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Mackat,
Very simply, I believe that human's have souls. Your soul is your inner self/higher self.
As this relates to this issue, I think that sometimes people get off track, and let their bodily impulses work against their higher nature. Sometimes their compulsions get the better of them. But even in the midst of compulsive behavior patterns, there is an awareness that "this can't last forever...and it's not good for me."
This awareness is the soul talking. The (sometimes) extreme compulsions are the brain talking...stuck on pleasure drive.
The soul/mind/inner self still has veto power, however. The soul can rule over the brain and say, "You know what, we're not going to be doing that anymore."
It's not easy at first, but it gets way easier. It's basically the same way that people have been quitting smoking for decades. It feels REALLY uncomfortable, but it gets easier fast. The trick is to end the ride permanently. If there is a window of opportunity for future smoking, the brain will be on high alert to snatch opportunities.
Regards,
Tristan
Very simply, I believe that human's have souls. Your soul is your inner self/higher self.
As this relates to this issue, I think that sometimes people get off track, and let their bodily impulses work against their higher nature. Sometimes their compulsions get the better of them. But even in the midst of compulsive behavior patterns, there is an awareness that "this can't last forever...and it's not good for me."
This awareness is the soul talking. The (sometimes) extreme compulsions are the brain talking...stuck on pleasure drive.
The soul/mind/inner self still has veto power, however. The soul can rule over the brain and say, "You know what, we're not going to be doing that anymore."
It's not easy at first, but it gets way easier. It's basically the same way that people have been quitting smoking for decades. It feels REALLY uncomfortable, but it gets easier fast. The trick is to end the ride permanently. If there is a window of opportunity for future smoking, the brain will be on high alert to snatch opportunities.
Regards,
Tristan
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Posts: 844
tristan-
i didn't catch your god post til now...probably should ease off while your gettin' the 'self' together....response i mean, response!!LOL
anyway, while we're all having such fun [not a glum lot] i think of the god concept as simply the Undescribable. So the moment i try to apply human concepts to this undescribable- 'cruel', 'all knowing', 'he/she/it' etc etc, i have fallen back on human reflective devices. stands to reason i would do this-being human and all. Its why some of our Eastern friends simply use a single syllable- 'om'
But what i BELIEVE is that this Undescribable resides at the same place as does creativity, will, sentience, self consciousness and unconditional love.
And man, when i know the universe loves me......
hugs,
mackat
God and I have become
like two giant fat people
living in a tiny
boat
we keep bumping into each other and
LAUGHING!
i didn't catch your god post til now...probably should ease off while your gettin' the 'self' together....response i mean, response!!LOL
anyway, while we're all having such fun [not a glum lot] i think of the god concept as simply the Undescribable. So the moment i try to apply human concepts to this undescribable- 'cruel', 'all knowing', 'he/she/it' etc etc, i have fallen back on human reflective devices. stands to reason i would do this-being human and all. Its why some of our Eastern friends simply use a single syllable- 'om'
But what i BELIEVE is that this Undescribable resides at the same place as does creativity, will, sentience, self consciousness and unconditional love.
And man, when i know the universe loves me......
hugs,
mackat
God and I have become
like two giant fat people
living in a tiny
boat
we keep bumping into each other and
LAUGHING!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: a spiritual vortex, Colorado
Posts: 844
tristan
belief in a soul?- but that's so-so-so unproveable!!! and the soul/mind/inner self???
wow!! talk about fuzzy concepts. Might as well hang the apellation "GOD" on it and be done...
talk about yer classic 3rd step
hugs
mackat
belief in a soul?- but that's so-so-so unproveable!!! and the soul/mind/inner self???
wow!! talk about fuzzy concepts. Might as well hang the apellation "GOD" on it and be done...
talk about yer classic 3rd step
hugs
mackat
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