Why bash?
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SYDNEY, NSW
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Re: Why bash?
Well, what i refer to is all the ways AA members communicate their dissaproval, suspicion and distrust of people that speak individual ideas on recovery that conflict with AA and their disagreement with certain principles. People who do it without God or the steps etc...
The non-verbal stuff i refer to is very subtle things like knowing glances, nods between members during a share. Body language and tones of voice are ways of generally conveying that the person just "doesnt understand yet" etc.. and shouldnt trust themslevs. even when a person leaves AA they are often wished "all the best" while patronising and mistrusting messages are conveyed through body language to increase self-doubt and fear in the persons mind. This then contributes to the persons downfall during a "relapse"
All of this, though, is not intended, most AA members genuinely do want the best for people - all of this works on an unconscious level and is set up to protect their own security and sobriety.
The non-verbal stuff i refer to is very subtle things like knowing glances, nods between members during a share. Body language and tones of voice are ways of generally conveying that the person just "doesnt understand yet" etc.. and shouldnt trust themslevs. even when a person leaves AA they are often wished "all the best" while patronising and mistrusting messages are conveyed through body language to increase self-doubt and fear in the persons mind. This then contributes to the persons downfall during a "relapse"
All of this, though, is not intended, most AA members genuinely do want the best for people - all of this works on an unconscious level and is set up to protect their own security and sobriety.
Dancing To My Own Beat
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Re: Why bash?
Just for the record THEDETACHER, what method of recovery are you following and how is it benefitting your quality of life?
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Re: Why bash?
I can just imagine myself, staying sober without AA- I would always have that lurking notion that someday, somehow, I will be able to control and enjoy my drinking. 
Why do i challenge those who choose AA as their way of life - because i believe there are some very destructive side-effects when people are ready to move on from it...
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Re: Why bash?
"what method of recovery are you following and how is it benefitting your quality of life?"
None really - I used to but moved on - I left AA ages ago after several years.. What do I do now - I live my life !
I work, i create good relationships with people in my life, i excercise, i eat well, i am open and communicative with others, i write in a journal, read, surf, love, laugh... pretty simple and also in line with what the rest of the world usually needs to do to feel good about themselves...
None really - I used to but moved on - I left AA ages ago after several years.. What do I do now - I live my life !
I work, i create good relationships with people in my life, i excercise, i eat well, i am open and communicative with others, i write in a journal, read, surf, love, laugh... pretty simple and also in line with what the rest of the world usually needs to do to feel good about themselves...
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Re: Why bash?
Why do i challenge those who choose AA as their way of life - because i believe there are some very destructive side-effects when people are ready to move on from it...
Dancing To My Own Beat
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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Re: Why bash?
I am glad that you have found a better life. Many feel that the better life they have is a gift and that they should try to return it to the next in line. This is the benevolence of 12 step recovery. It is not required, but many find it very rewarding.
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Re: Why bash?
Originally Posted by DangerousDan
I don't understand. You seem to want to convey to me you have some knowledge of AA. When does one exactly move on from it? Attendance at meetings is but one facet of AA. The ideas for happiness I have found there shall reside in my heart forever.
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Re: Why bash?
whew-
i think dan has a strong point here- how would you strip the emotive context from any human interaction? As far as the 'prophecy' of relapse, how can this be quantitatively seperated from the historical data of the experience of alcoholics who quit exercising a program of spiritual /human connectdeness, who have no regular outlet of ego sublimation, no contact of personal accountability, no exorcism of prior destructive behaviors, no outlets to recover a feeling of self worth thru unselfish actions? There is a huge body of evidence that for an addict[alcohol or other DOC], the first drink/hit of an addictive substance IS the beginning of the end. Tis th nature of the beast [do you know lots of people out there smoking an occassional cigarette? me neither- some can - most cannot] It is incredibly healthy for me to use the word 'lurking'. Implies vigilance. Bottom line is that for me this is a matter of life and death.
I'm not saying that another Way is impossible. I am saying that this AA way has quite a bit of anecdotal evidence suggesting that folks get and remain sober and manifest quite a bit of experiential change.
i think dan has a strong point here- how would you strip the emotive context from any human interaction? As far as the 'prophecy' of relapse, how can this be quantitatively seperated from the historical data of the experience of alcoholics who quit exercising a program of spiritual /human connectdeness, who have no regular outlet of ego sublimation, no contact of personal accountability, no exorcism of prior destructive behaviors, no outlets to recover a feeling of self worth thru unselfish actions? There is a huge body of evidence that for an addict[alcohol or other DOC], the first drink/hit of an addictive substance IS the beginning of the end. Tis th nature of the beast [do you know lots of people out there smoking an occassional cigarette? me neither- some can - most cannot] It is incredibly healthy for me to use the word 'lurking'. Implies vigilance. Bottom line is that for me this is a matter of life and death.
I'm not saying that another Way is impossible. I am saying that this AA way has quite a bit of anecdotal evidence suggesting that folks get and remain sober and manifest quite a bit of experiential change.
Dancing To My Own Beat
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Re: Why bash?
Originally Posted by THEDETACHER
I was a member of AA for several years but decided that it was only a part of my lifelong journey - I also found things that with be with me forever but when i say i moved on i mean i grew out of it and am no longer dependant on meetings and I no longer hold to the theory of powerlessness because i feel lnow that it is a very negative thing to believe.
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Re: Why bash?
In a way, but not quite !
If it was purely a recovery tool and something that was there for people as a transitional way of growing in a supportive environment and becoming a healthier better person, then - YES !
Its all the fear about AA's philosophy that it is a "lifelong and permanent disease" and that "We must obey certain principles, or we die.� Is that not a threat ?
If i have been convinced over the years that "I must obey certain principles, or I die.� then im not going to feel very confident about choosing a different path to AA - AM I ?
In fact it may take a LOT of de-programming to get to a point where i feel it is safe to NOT work the steps and do "the suggested things..."
If only AA was a temporary place - in its "right size" it would be wonderful for a lot more...
If it was purely a recovery tool and something that was there for people as a transitional way of growing in a supportive environment and becoming a healthier better person, then - YES !
Its all the fear about AA's philosophy that it is a "lifelong and permanent disease" and that "We must obey certain principles, or we die.� Is that not a threat ?
If i have been convinced over the years that "I must obey certain principles, or I die.� then im not going to feel very confident about choosing a different path to AA - AM I ?
In fact it may take a LOT of de-programming to get to a point where i feel it is safe to NOT work the steps and do "the suggested things..."
If only AA was a temporary place - in its "right size" it would be wonderful for a lot more...
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Re: Why bash?
Well, its a bit of a circular argument isnt it ? If you ever had a drinking problem and then get over it then you never really had a drinking problem (ie not a real Alcoholic)
Let me quote from this source:
http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/chap3.htm
"Imagine, for instance, the flu redefined as an always fatal disease. If it isn't fatal, it isn't the flu. Now imagine a doctor with a patient who is running a fever, coughing and headachy. If the patient should die, he can be held up as an example of the inevitable fatality of the flu. But what if the patient lives, as is to be expected? He didn't have the flu. How could he have? The flu, by definition, is always fatal. Using such a definition makes it impossible to prove that the flu isn't always fatal. The presence of the same virus and symptoms in those who live and those who die is irrelevant. If it isn't fatal, it isn't the flu."
Let me quote from this source:
http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/chap3.htm
"Imagine, for instance, the flu redefined as an always fatal disease. If it isn't fatal, it isn't the flu. Now imagine a doctor with a patient who is running a fever, coughing and headachy. If the patient should die, he can be held up as an example of the inevitable fatality of the flu. But what if the patient lives, as is to be expected? He didn't have the flu. How could he have? The flu, by definition, is always fatal. Using such a definition makes it impossible to prove that the flu isn't always fatal. The presence of the same virus and symptoms in those who live and those who die is irrelevant. If it isn't fatal, it isn't the flu."
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Re: Why bash?
I go back to my cigarette analogy- not everyone has the experience of nicotine addiction. But nicotine is a powerfully addictive substance. Those who are addicted cannot become 'social smokers'. Alcohol is statistically less addictive than nicotine. But the same lesson is there: those who are addicted cannot become social drinkers. might have something to do with the definition of addiction.
The 'powerless' part of AA is , for me, the most powerful part of the message. Certainly is an accurate description of the human condition. If my disease had not proved it, my teenage son would!!
The 'powerless' part of AA is , for me, the most powerful part of the message. Certainly is an accurate description of the human condition. If my disease had not proved it, my teenage son would!!
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Re: Why bash?
The reason why I said I would always have that "lurking notion" that I could drink again is because I am an alcoholic. I used to enjoy drinking- very much so. But as my drinking increased, it took over my life. I could make no decisions for myself, I could only drink. The alcohol made my decisions for me. Yes, there probably is some emotion there. I was in a literal HELL! I am very thankful that I've found a way that I don't have to live like that any more. I am physically addicted to alcohol. I have relapsed, and in a very short time ( 2 weeks) I was back to living in hell again. I know I can't drink, and AA helps me to remember that. Is that so wrong?? :okay:
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Re: Why bash?
I get it now! The old morerevealed stuff. Alcoholism is fatal in many ways. Chief among the casualties I believe is one's spirit and will. No two alcoholics are alike. Given that we are all different, how is it that one person can know what will help another. For this is essentially what you are postulating I think. I still don't see any real knowledge of AA in what you say.
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Re: Why bash?
At the SMART Recovery forum board a member recently posted about sharing some SMART principles he'd learned at his AA group. Apparently the members came down on him like a ton of bricks.
Now, I would have been reluctant to start talking about one recovery group's principles while at a meeting devoted to another--I'm sure that someone walking into a SMART meeting and mentioning AA principles would likely experience similar flak. But it was the vehemence and 'shaming' that really startled him.
The reason many people come to SMART, RR, SOS, and other non-12-step programs is because of very bad experiences they've had in 12 step. My quick perusal of RR's web site left me with the impression that being anti-AA is almost a part of their recovery process. Trimpey revels in it. At the SMART forum we often have folks who make use of SMART principles but who attend AA for the group support--after all, there are AA meetings everywhere.
I had heard so many horror stories about AA that I finally came to this forum board to try to learn more about it. My initial posts about SMART met with some real overt hostility. But others explained how they've made it work for them, in spite of having had difficulty with the Big 3 concepts that give many people trouble at first (powerlessness, disease, and higher power). What bothered me most, aside from the snide comments, was the certitude, bordering on righteousness, and the predictive comments ('you can try that SMART stuff, but it's sure to fail').
I've learned how it works for many people, that there are the usual fanatics I'd expect in any large organization, and that there are definitely degrees of orthodoxy. Just step on over to the Empty Tomb thread for examples....
I have some very strong reservations about AA, but also recognize how well it's worked for some. My main objection, I guess, is that it is NOT for everybody--and members often imply that it is. I'm not even sure it is for MOST people. It works great for some.
Unfortunately, most of what I've read so far in the link provided earlier in this thread conforms to descriptions from refugees from the program. It can be or seem coercive, there is a strong religious element in some groups or regions, and some of the early history is appalling. In my opinion, as AA has become more ecumenical it has improved. But that apparently horrifies the religious extremists in the program.
I guess my point is that there's a difference between comparing programs and bashing them. Also, a bad experience in one program may be something one has to overcome in order to make progress in another.
By the way, people often have that lurking notion about drinking moderately, regardless of the program they're in. Every recovery program I've seen, except Moderation Management, emphasizes abstinence.
Don S
Now, I would have been reluctant to start talking about one recovery group's principles while at a meeting devoted to another--I'm sure that someone walking into a SMART meeting and mentioning AA principles would likely experience similar flak. But it was the vehemence and 'shaming' that really startled him.
The reason many people come to SMART, RR, SOS, and other non-12-step programs is because of very bad experiences they've had in 12 step. My quick perusal of RR's web site left me with the impression that being anti-AA is almost a part of their recovery process. Trimpey revels in it. At the SMART forum we often have folks who make use of SMART principles but who attend AA for the group support--after all, there are AA meetings everywhere.
I had heard so many horror stories about AA that I finally came to this forum board to try to learn more about it. My initial posts about SMART met with some real overt hostility. But others explained how they've made it work for them, in spite of having had difficulty with the Big 3 concepts that give many people trouble at first (powerlessness, disease, and higher power). What bothered me most, aside from the snide comments, was the certitude, bordering on righteousness, and the predictive comments ('you can try that SMART stuff, but it's sure to fail').
I've learned how it works for many people, that there are the usual fanatics I'd expect in any large organization, and that there are definitely degrees of orthodoxy. Just step on over to the Empty Tomb thread for examples....
I have some very strong reservations about AA, but also recognize how well it's worked for some. My main objection, I guess, is that it is NOT for everybody--and members often imply that it is. I'm not even sure it is for MOST people. It works great for some.
Unfortunately, most of what I've read so far in the link provided earlier in this thread conforms to descriptions from refugees from the program. It can be or seem coercive, there is a strong religious element in some groups or regions, and some of the early history is appalling. In my opinion, as AA has become more ecumenical it has improved. But that apparently horrifies the religious extremists in the program.
I guess my point is that there's a difference between comparing programs and bashing them. Also, a bad experience in one program may be something one has to overcome in order to make progress in another.
By the way, people often have that lurking notion about drinking moderately, regardless of the program they're in. Every recovery program I've seen, except Moderation Management, emphasizes abstinence.
Don S
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Re: Why bash?
Originally Posted by DangerousDan
I get it now! The old morerevealed stuff. Alcoholism is fatal in many ways. Chief among the casualties I believe is one's spirit and will. No two alcoholics are alike. Given that we are all different, how is it that one person can know what will help another. For this is essentially what you are postulating I think. I still don't see any real knowledge of AA in what you say.
Damn it ! I knew that my knowledge of The Big Book, Meetings, Sponsorship, The 12-Steps and the 12 traditions, The 12 concepts, unity, recovery, service and Higher Power were completely irrelevant !
Seriously, i spent over 6 years in AA and left - while there i was a very dedicated and active member. I was just fortunate enough to have my eyes & mind opened when the time was ready & I moved on...
I have never denied that AA is helpful but theres a big fat backhander when it comes to leaving or doing things to challenge the accepted norm and i watched many a member squirm and clutch at their own security as i told them i was leaving - some of them HATE me now even while i kept my opinions to myself and respected their choice.
casualties of one's spirit and will occur to people the world over too...
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