THEDETACHER

"Now, I would have been reluctant to start talking about one recovery group's principles while at a meeting devoted to another--I'm sure that someone walking into a SMART meeting and mentioning AA principles would likely experience similar flak. But it was the vehemence and 'shaming' that really startled him."

that was fantastic Don - a great and i must say balanced post indeed.

Dan

Thank you. I think I understand now what you are trying to say. Very unfortunate I guess. I just have a real hard time with views such as yours because of my own personal experience. I use many tools in recovery. I was fortunate to be introduced to S.M.A.R.T while in rehab and continue to enjoy it's benefits. I simply don't see the relevance in pointing out one's negative experiences with a particular program in a recovery forum. Everyone's recovery is unique I think and can be enhanced by any number of things.
Thanks.

THEDETACHER

well, what i am really getting at is that what most alcoholics dont realise is their own ability to re-create their lives - of course they/we need some help but isnt living independently and free of dependence on any organised institution what many people are looking for - to live as free as so called "normal" people - and NO this does not mean being a hermit.

Chy

For me I was unable to do it independently in the begining. So I was one of those that reached out to AA to find a solution. I had not been aware of the many options. I am forever grateful to the program of AA for showing me how I can gain my own independence. The support I find in the rooms is like no other. Though I am somewhat familer with the other programs, I think we all ultimatly decide what works best. If your strong enough to do it on your own, fabulous. For most however, the fact that we have our various organizations to lean on is a result of the foundations they layed before us. I think so long as we found something, some organization that worked the roots are firmly planted to grow into the individuals we all never perceived to be possible. Some will break off and grow in a different direction, but it was a result of those institutions (programs) fertilizing us to do so.

I'll never be like the normal people. I have a disorder of alcoholism. However, I'm okay with that today as I have found bit's and pieces from various groups that I keep in my tool box. Perhaps someday I'll have grown enough to be independent in my abiltiy to succed in life sober, but for now, I'll continue to do what works for me. People are social beings, and there is nothing wrong with being part of an organization (instituition) that makes us feel good, confident, and strong in our sobriety.

Dan

I like that last statement. It appeals to my inner anarchist. Fortunately, like Chy, I have realized I will never be "normal" ( I assume you mean non-alcoholic), and that I've come to terms with it.
Thanks.

Chy

Yea, we're non-normies! *LOL*

But normies rely on organizations and institutions to.

THEDETACHER

Chy and Dan

i hate to be the one to break the news.... BUT

YOU ALREADY ARE NORMAL !

Chy

I'm taking that as a compliment then! *S*

Dan

I'm confused by the word normal to a certain extent. So many variables and interpretations.

Gooch

we are allready normal? isn't that a lot like being exactly where we are supposed to be?

THEDETACHER

Well, to me "Alcoholics" and a "Non-Alcoholics" are both normal people.

The difference btw them is that "Alcoholics" have chosen a pattern of destructive behaviour with Alcohol to either cover or mask a massive range of emotional/psychological issues. On many levels they have learned to lose faith in themselves as a valuable resource for their own needs - This is why when they find AA - it continually reinforces the uselessness of self-will - Basically the Experience, strength and hope of similarly emotionally damaged people who also have learned that the self is entirely usless in changing and learning new ways of coping and dealing with life in general. Please note the word "choice" - a BAD choice but still a choice and by NO MEANS a "disease".

"Non-Alcoholics" are people who have learned different bahaviour and probably better ways of dealing with and a more healthier perception on life in general. They dont use alcohol as they dont need to OR if they have ever had issues they have LEARNED to deal with them in a constructive way.

How would you feel if i told you i have a disease which i am powerless over - which forces me to compulsively and anti-socially go up to any queue in any shop, bank or the like and start pushing people out of the way and telling them to get f*cked... I am powerless over it - what would you say to me ?

Dan

Chy, once again, I stand in awe.

Chy

I'd say you need help, then help you find it, if you wanted it.

The American Medical Association, labels alcoholism as a disease. My disease caused me to make bad choices.

THEDETACHER

Rubbish - Would you consider me as having a valid case for a "disease" ?

Dan

So tell me then detacher, if my self is useless and damaged as you say, what is it I'm using right now to stay sober and to try and understand your argument? The line up analogy is simply flawed because there is help available for people afflicted with Touret's syndrome. These people are powerless over their compulsion to swear and lash out verbally. Compulsion exists. I did choose to drink myself into near death. I did choose to ignore my sickness for a long time. I simply did not know how to control my compulsive nature. I now have tools to do so, and many of those are found in the rooms. In fact, I'm using them right now, otherwise I would be compelled to call you for still not revealing what you use to stay sober while stepping, lightly I will grant you, on what I use for my sobriety.
Thanks

Chy

Possibly, if it goes along with any of the many other anti-social behaviors, identified as mental disorders. It may not be a text book definition of the word disease if we're sorting nuts and bolts, but still undeniably a physical malady, which would require help.

Chy

Just curious De-

Do you identify yourself as being an alcoholic?

THEDETACHER

Dan... I acutally used the words "learned" and "perception" throughout this thread - I think you are as normal and perfectly capable as anyone else - Its just that if you were once an alcoholic you probably drank for REASONS and BELIEVED that you were incapable of controlling your alcohol consumption.

What do i use to stay sober - I DONT. I am actually an Ex-Member of AA - was a member for over 6 years - a solid one too - I left AA last year because i didnt agree any more with so much of the Program - PARTICULARLY the one about Alkies being different to "normies" Having once been a severe problem drinker - complete with a physical addiction/reaction/craving with Alcohol - I found that once i had dealt with my own emotional and self-esteem issues i was safe to drink again with no bad consequences and complete control over my level of intake (which isnt very much these days)

I hope you dont throw the old "you can ever have been a REAL alcoholic" line at me - I can quite definately tell you i WAS - but i believe with the right support you can get over it, move on and dont have to suffer from a permanently disabling "disease"

Chy

....as is most of this community. Now then, what are your personal assumptions then of those that do all of the above while enjoying the support of recovery program, let's call it XYZ?

THEDETACHER

My personal assumptions (not even that in fact) are that most are members of AA - Most are actually self-proclaimed

REMINDER - this is a forum on "Alcoholism" and not "AA"