Dan

From your link. An interesting article to read. Simply biased is all. By the way friend, I interpret being on a higher path as being informed and open minded. I find many things in your article that are simply not true. And what, may I ask, are "doctrinal standards of sobriety"?

THEDETACHER

"...being informed and open minded." is cool, very cool

"doctrinal standards of sobriety" are the subversive ways in which AA (unwittingly and almost innocently) with non-verbal and coercive communication eventually convinvice people that they are unable to change and teach them to become dependant on AA...

AA is great, for a while, but over time teaches people to rely on things which are doctrinal in nature and coercively/subliminally remove a persons ability to trust and rely on themselves as a powerful resource for change...

Magichappens

I disagree with the notion that the 12 steps "remove a persons ability to trust and rely on themselves as a powerful resource for change." Personal responsibility, and spirituality run hand in hand as taught by the 12 steps. They are not a religion, just a tool, which is not exclusive to recovery. Used in conjunction with other tools, it can add to the quality of recovery. Intolerance leads to disharmony among people. If it doesn't work for you, so be it. It works for many. Again, I ask, why bash it just because it doesn't work for you?

Magichappens

Open discussion of beliefs and personal testimonial of what works for someone is a wonderful thing, but where does the need come from to condemn?

Gooch

there are some interesting points made in that link.. I would agree that its biased to a point ( how else to make a point?) however the experiences are common. people confront their fear of "not fitting in" ( is one of the reasons I drank in the first place). though ..It's up to the individual to accept responsibility for his decisions. Alcohol didn't get me arrested. nor can AA keep me sober. or more directly, the "members of AA are no more responsible for my success than my failure. Some have given me a good example though and I just choose to follow those good examples.

seems as though those with long term sucess that I have met have utilized AA as vehicle to transport them to self discovery. Most of the real old timers I know go back to try and offer some compensation for the gift they feel they have received. Their 'dependancy" becomes more on the spiritual principles embodied in the steps, than the "fellowship" and meetings.

2stop

That quote in your post Dan...what do they mean get over the crisis of leaving? That is insane IMO. Why can't they just say it is great ANY WAY a person gets and stays sober. That will scare a lot of people off, talk like that. Most people I know in 12 step don't think like that, That quote makes it sound like they are a God all unto themselves....and to say they cannot measure up to doctrinal standards of sobriety..Well, that's a good thing, at least they are not indoctrinated! They can think for themselves. Geez...sorry to interfere in this thread..I just read that quote and it struck me as very arrogant and judgmental.

Peter

What a person believes is not as important as the fact that they do believe.

It is the faith that is the powerful spiritual element and it is the faith that will make the difference.

Allow others the same right that we so savagely guard. The right to choose and the right to make our own mistakes.

What is my contempt of another persons belief, but a reflection of doubts about my own belief ?

Dan

Yeah Tam. I just posted that. Another member posted the link and I read the article.
I just wanted some clarification. (((((Tam)))))!

2stop

All I know is this..I am happy and thrilled for anyone who attains sobriety and do not care how they do it and do not tell anyone their 'status" of being sober. Just seems like articles like that could keep someone from getting help. That concerns me, but in the end each of us is responsible for our own life, our own sobriety..no matter what.

Have a good day all....(((Hugs)))

dotcom

very interesting quote from the article dan. i like to think of my recovery as mine. not someone's text book definition of it... excepting ocd, i have never been text book anything. and even then, my ocd is "my own variation". not everyone has the same habits, rituals, etc. i dont know but i think i have been letting what other people say affect the way i feel about my recovery. reacting defensive makes me wonder if im really doing this for ME. although, i have handled some situations remarkably well which would be my recovery in action! yah! but then i remember all the times i was skeptical about NA and all the times i was down and wasnt kicked for my outrageous beliefs. like NA is a cult and etc. no one felt the need to educate me further, just said come back. eventually i found NA to be helpful. my homegroup is not NA but does 12 steps... and tonight the leader comes back and will turn it into a sort of NA based recovery group. that is great for me! things went so downhill without the guidelines like ,,, will finish later am late for apt

Magichappens

I have read much on that site as well as the orange papers and factnet.org. No matter how many sites I am directed to, or how much dirt people can heap on AA, the 12 steps, or any other belief, recovery system, it doesn't change the fact that people find the path that is right for them, and each path is unique. I guess if someone needs to be judgemental to be ok, or right, that is their choice. But it closes the door for shared ES&H, open dialogue and learning. I guess pretty much the only thing I am totally intolerant of is intolerance and cruelty. Peter, that was an aweaome reply.

Dan

I'll second that any day of the week!

dotcom

back... and forgot what i was saying. i think i may have been rambling to come to some similar conclusion. i second that magic and dan!

Dan

=THEDETACHER]"..."doctrinal standards of sobriety" are the subversive ways in which AA (unwittingly and almost innocently) with non-verbal and coercive communication eventually convinvice people that they are unable to change and teach them to become dependant on AA...

Cool. Now I'd like to learn about non-verbal and coercive communication.
Thanks.

mackat

I think gooch said enuff about where we can go in AA. Can go. The great attraction of AA is in its inherent anarchy. The doctrinal 'purity' seems to me a valid attempt to constrain the focus. I have seen groups go far afield and come to the realization that they need their 'root' program. To me, the beauty is that they did go far afield. All the other 12 step programs are a result of this 'anarchy' .
I am clean n sober as a result of 12 steps. I live a life which thrives on change- spiritually, emotionally, academically, financially, creatively - One of the huge insights i gained in the rooms is that i am absolutely free TO DO. my chemically contolled mind had created my prison...
Do i believe Bill W was an inspired guru- you bet.; do i believe he, or any other annointed leader is infallible...i think not! Principles before personalities- in other words- seek what the guru sought , not neccessarily what he found....if you meet the buddha on the road- kill him!!
Yes, i have discovered that acceptance is the answer to all my problems. That i may not be able to control people, places or a situation, but i can control my reaction to them.
My mother , quite rightly, told me once that all i was doing was learning to be a grown up. She also knows that the only alternative for me was death. I'm really digging this living stuff-
mackat

THEDETACHER

I think AA is cool too... A wonderful place for many of the inspired principles that you all are espousing: growth, change, spirituality learning healthy behaviour patterns. That stuff is fantastic AND admirable...

BUT (and heres the nasty side) if someone chooses to leave AA for any number of reasons. They usually have learned that they are unable to make choices regarding their own life and grow emotionally and spiritually without 12-step groups or AA etc...(powerlessness)

This is WHY when people "slip" they end up worse than before... because AA has embedded in their minds a belief or doctrine so convincing that it becomes their truth and they act out this self-fulfilling prophecy.

Freedom, anarchy etc... maybe in words or traditions but in reality - there is a whole other bunch of subliminal and unconscious messages going on which can undermine a persons self-esteem.

Dan

The only thing I am powerless over is addiction. I retain full power to live as an addict that doesn't use or drink. Out of sheer curiosity, can you elaborate on the subliminal and unconscious messages.
Thanks.

Magichappens

Yes, that is what "morerevealed" says. And for some that may be true. An unhealthy dependence on anything can lead to problems. But that is with ANY social group. There are all types of personalities involved, and they bring their own baggage to the group.
As for subliminal messages, there is peer pressure in every social situation. Are you suggesting that we become hermits?

Magichappens

What method of recovery are you practicing, THEDETACHER? How is it working for you? And why do you feel the need to tell people who are practicing the 12 steps and seeking others with this common interest that they are wrong?

Janet L

My definition of real sobriety: sane and rational. Am I restless, irritable, discontent? Do my actions show that I am? I know people who go to AA that exhibit these characteristics- to me, that is not sobriety. People who have never drunk a drop of alcohol can make decisions and exhibit actions that are not sober. AA's 12 steps help me to live soberly and think rationally. There are people who have never been to and can not go to a single AA meeting- the Loners. Yet they can live the steps- the program- of AA, and live happy, contented lives. It is possible for people to break away from AA, and if they remember their lessons, they can be happy, too.

But for myself, I love going to AA meetings, and I love the support of the fellowship. I feel it would be easy for me, if I quit going to meetings and left the support of my friends, to forget where I came from, and go back to those old behaviors and attitudes (not that I don't still have them from time to time- progress, not perfection)

I can just imagine myself, staying sober without AA- I would always have that lurking notion that someday, somehow, I will be able to control and enjoy my drinking.